Another Serious Question: NJA or CAL

[Dan Roman]

I think it boils down to if you like the frac flying and the lifestyle why leave? ANY airline is a gamble. It's safe to say CO is NOT safer than Net Jets. Also, I would be a little wary of the people who think "THEIR" airline is the best deal. It's human nature to be excited about a new job, but after a few years reality sets in. A job can be great for one person who is already there and established, but someone else can go there and have a terrible deal, either less senior and paying for it or just not a good fit for that airlines domicles or culture.
It's a personal decision, put your family first and go with what you want to do. As far as the future pay goes, it's probably a safe bet that whatever UAL, DAL, NWA end up with pay and retirement wise, will be what all the Legacies will be paying.

 

[taloft]

Given that CAL thinks XJet pilots are overpaid and forcing their furloughs, I'd say stick with Net.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

It's a personal decision, put your family first and go with what you want to do. As far as the future pay goes, it's probably a safe bet that whatever UAL, DAL, NWA end up with pay and retirement wise, will be what all the Legacies will be paying.

I see and what NWA, DAL, UAL end up with will determine the what legacies are paid from here to eternity? Come on anything is possible but many believe our industry has or is soon to be bottomed out. This is a cyclical Industry and I'm confident that for what ever legacies are left standing at some point the pay and benefits will trend upward again, it has in the past and I'm confident it will again in the future. How long will it take to get back to old UAL and DAL pay? Probably several years like ten or maybe more but never say never in this business. While this cycle is like no other in the past within the airline industry doesn't mean it will forever be this way. It may take a long time to get back to the glory days of pre 9/11 it's certainly possible to start moving back in the right direction. One legacy will negotiate an upward contract and each next carrier will take it a step forward it's called pattern bargaining. That is what we have now only in the wrong direction. This is what occurred after the concessionary contracts of the late 70's and early 80's.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Here is something else to ponder. What is the retirement at NJET? This is what airline pilot pay says 401k match: 50c/$1 up to 15%.

At CAL we now have a B fund that pays 12.75% of your W2 earnings by 2007. That is your money in your own investment account (can't be taken away like "A" plans or defined benefit plans) and is on top of your regular earnings. Not a 401k match but a 100% company paid plan. Based on the above formula my 2005 B plan company contributions would have been $24,225. I think that beats NJets 401K retirement plan, something else to consider.

 

[Dan Roman]

Good point CAL and your right, it WILL cycle back up. The big question is when? Just to be clear, I'm not attacking CO. I think you have morphed into a very good airline. I'm with Hawaiian and both our airlines were at the bottom end of the scale in the 90's and are now near the top. My point is just what you said. It's cyclical. Flying for an airline is a wild ride and I've loved it, but our friend here should be aware that it is a wild ride that changes dramaticly from decade to decade and be aware, there are no sure bets in this game! I think I've a got the best job in the world but that's because I like living in Hawaii and I like Hawaiian, through all our ups and downs I've been able to live on the North Shore, surf and raise a family, but that doesn't mean it's for everyone.
I can certainly see how someone would be hard pressed to give up flying a variety of brand new business jets, week on week off, and live were you want and never have to non rev!

 

[CAL EWR B737]

My point is just what you said. It's cyclical. Flying for an airline is a wild ride and I've loved it, but our friend here should be aware that it is a wild ride that changes dramaticly from decade to decade and be aware, there are no sure bets in this game!

Nicely stated I agree 100%.

 

[Floyd94]

Ok, so its been a year, everyone still feel the same??

 

[skiandsurf]

Ok, so its been a year, everyone still feel the same??

This fractional flying is too much work.
Day 1....745am airline from LAX to LAS. Fly 2 pax to SNA. Visit with my mom (onboard the plane) for 2 hrs. Fly 1 guy to OAK. Fly empty to LAX. 13 hr duty. 3 flights. 3 pax. No catering. 4 hrs overtime.

Day 2...Free breakfast at LAX Hilton. 2pm airline flight to SEA. Done.
Day 3...Free breakfast at SEA Embasy Suites. Ferry plane to ICT. Airline to DFW then on to AUS. (American Airlines gave me a free first class upgrade, thank you very much).
Day 4...Free breakfast at AUS Hilton. Airline to PSP via DEN.
Day 5...ferry plane from PSP to LAX. 9am check in time, released at 1130am. Home by 1230.

I have jury duty on monday, so I am off the remainder of the trip.
5 days. 3 pax. 1 suitcase. No catering. Earliest check-in of 745am. 6 hrs overtime. 6 airline flights (2 in first class).

Note: this is not the norm from my experience, but I will take it.

 

[Captain Overs]

Ask the CAL guys how much better their new contract is from Contract '97? Oh that's right. Contract 04' was a concessionary one. CAL guys talk about how great CAL is, but that's speculating on the current situation. Any hiccup and that all changes.

If CAL is so wonderful why are there so many COEX guy who passed the opportunity to go to CAL?

 

[talespin]

Ask the CAL guys how much better their new contract is from Contract '97? Oh that's right. Contract 04' was a concessionary one. CAL guys talk about how great CAL is, but that's speculating on the current situation. Any hiccup and that all changes.

If CAL is so wonderful why are there so many COEX guy who passed the opportunity to go to CAL?

I suspect because they either can't get the interview or they didn't make it through it.

Gina I've been at CAL 2 yrs and I'm on track to make 90 this year. Granted I've been flying a lot but home almost every night/day. Had to move my family to Guam to do it and fly a lot of three man trips, some on the backside of the clock. Can't speak for the stateside schedules but over here there pretty good minus the new PBS. You know what they say about turning 60 and then you'll know if you made the right choice. It's all about you and your family and whats best for them. For us it's been a great adventure and experience of a life time. I left flying regional's bidding number 15 to start over at the bottom yanking gear, but I can honestly say I made the right choice. Good Luck

 

[AV80R]

”Is starting over at $27,000/yr, with no benefits for 6 months, at the bottom of a legacy carrier rumored to be merging with another, really putting your family first?”

Very good point!

Gina - when (not if) CAL merges with another airline, how will that affect your seniority - which obviously you and your family will rely on for pay and quality of life purposes? You don't know? Exactly!

Also, you said you have 20 years left? Well, if NJA stands for Netjets, it’s a 135 outfit correct? Therefore there’s no 60 rule, so why do you say you have 20 years left? I’m sure I’m misunderstanding your calculation. So maybe you should look into the possibility of working until 65 at CAL (will probably happen within the next 20 years wouldn’t you say) and at least 65 at Netjets and then look at the numbers? Good luck with you decision but I vote for your current job mainly because you have a family and since I believe that CAL will be merging with another airline in the near future all the bets re: CAL are off. Either way good luck or better yet, go FedEx or UPS!

 

[Phrogs4ever]

For me, no brainer...

I left a Frac a year and a half ago for CAL and there has never been a day where I doubted it was the right move to make. Might have been a little more difficult if I were at NJ, but I still would have gone to CAL. The type of flying is night and day. I did not "enjoy" the work that had to get done for an average flight on the BeechJet. I did not enjoy the whole papers/ice/coffee cycle. I did not enjoy loading bags, golf clubs, skis on a scorching ramp just to wipe down the sweat to give a safety brief. I did not enjoy cleaning up after adults. I did not enjoy having to pack for a week and doing laundry at hotels during my rest time. I did not enjoy laying over with one other crew member, who may or may not be a jerk/slam-clicker/fogie/etc. I have an MBA, and every time I had to pull a pot full of s**t out the lav to get serviced I had to ask myself wtf am I doing here. Customer service is universal, but flying for a frac is not what I wanted to do the rest of my career. That said, I flew with a lot of great people/pilots and had fun once the engines were started. But it was the peripheral stuff that made it just a job.

About CAL, I was fortunate to hired at the beginning of the hiring wave. Two months reserve in EWR, two months reserve in IAH, and a line holder ever since. I moved to Houston right after training and life has been good. Not Shangri-La, but better than before. I could care less about all the talk of mergers. That would prevent anyone from ever considering flying for a major airline, and recently, even some of the LCCs. I could care less about age 65, if it happens it happens. Again, I made my decision based on the facts at that time, not what someone else said might happen. Yes, there is still a lot retirements over the next five years and CAL is receiving 65 new aircraft over the next three years. Both of which could go up, could go down. All I know is I enjoy going to work, and there are 64 more pilots junior to me every month.

Just a few more points:
-First year I grossed over $38,000. Not great, but more than the $27,000 someone else mentioned. On pace to gross $72,000 this year.
-My family was never without medical coverage, first six months just came from a supplemental insurer.
-Fourth year 757 FO will make over $100,000, based on 2006 pay rates. Incremental step in Aug 2007, contract up in 2008. Based on the debacle of POS '02 and some new union leadership, the contract can only improve.

Time will tell the true stability of a Frac career. When I left I wasn't sold on the long term potential. Remember RTA? Like I said before, I made what I thought was the best decision for my family based on the situation at that time. Of course, time will tell.

 

[jbDC9]

Regarding last year's post about taking so many (20-22?) years to hold a summer vacation as a IAH CA; that number is way off.

I'm at 9 years here, still a IAH 737 FO; holding 3 day trips, can hold day turns, all holidays/weekends off if I want. I'm moving to IAH 737 CA in Feb, and imagine my surprise that during vacation bidding I was awarded a week in late July(Oshkosh) as a bottom feeder captain. I've heard the rumors that summer vac weeks are hard to get as a junior guy... I dunno, maybe I just got lucky, but I was pretty happy to get some summer vacation weeks awarded as a junior capt.

As for the concessionary Contract '02; yup, it still sucks(I voted no). I just don't understand why the new guys get thrown under the bus when it comes to first year pay and bennies, which truly suck a$$. But I guess that just doesn't matter as long as the senior dudes get theirs...

 

[Palomino]

Ask the CAL guys how much better their new contract is from Contract '97? Oh that's right. Contract 04' was a concessionary one. CAL guys talk about how great CAL is, but that's speculating on the current situation. Any hiccup and that all changes.

If CAL is so wonderful why are there so many COEX guy who passed the opportunity to go to CAL?

if CoEx'rs make different choices i don't care. if they just hate CAL because it's the 'little brother/big brother' mentality then i still don't care.

i'm having fun at CAL and sucking it up with the first year pay. should i have waited until first year pay went up 20% and miss out on seniority? no thanks. i made the leap and hopefully it will work out well.

CAL is a good place. beats the crap out of a lot of places to work. and that includes CoEx. i had a blast at CoEx, but i'm glad to be at CAL. it's not for everyone, but it fits me well.

 

[Gina]

"so its been a year"

“Ok, so its been a year, everyone still feel the same??” This was post number 67. A couple of the posters after 67 seem to have missed this detail.

I'm glad I stayed at Nutjets. The conditions are what you make of them. For the most part, the negative aspects of the fractional job mentioned by others are ALL TRUE, with one exception: My plane's lav is serviced externally just like an airliner’s. It's the $5 hole. If the ramper gets a blue shower and matching turd necklace, it becomes a $20.00 hole. I never touch the blue water.

Was my decision based only on money? No, was about a balance of money and Q.O.L. Time off the job, free and clear of any thoughts of things with wings, was the clincher.
When I am home for 7 days in a row I never have to consider schedule, commuting options, or rushing for anything. Laundry gets done when it gets done. I can devote my full attention to my kids.

The majority of the flying I do is daytime.

My salary estimate turned out to be a bit conservative. I made over $110k this year, excluding my retro/bonus check. I got the $7500 match on the 401k and I even drained my $400 uniform account. I spent about $50.00 in co-pay for medical, dental, vision, and Rx for my family.

I like my 3 weeks of vacation, which are three 21-day breaks/yr. on the 7&7 schedule. I discovered a way to get 49 days off in a row with 2 vacation slots while on 7&7. I vacation for free with my Hilton points and my airline miles. My kid’s college fund is on track, my retirement investments are on track to retire at 60. (AV80R, you are right, I could work past 60, but I’d rather not)


Shameless plug: THANK-YOU 1108

Phogs4ever: I know an individual who went to CAL a week before the new NJA contract. He wouldn't have gone had he known about the new contract. He is not happy at CAL. I’m not discounting your opinion, (your post was spot on) I’m just pointing out that ironically, the opposite opinion exists out there too.

BTW, flying for NJA has its fun times too.

Is NJA a sure thing? Of course not. As many have pointed out, we will all know for sure when we retire. Uncle Warren once loved USAir too.

Is my dog better than yours? No. That’s not the point. I’m green with envy after reading tailspin’s post. The point is that I had to make a quick decision a year ago. I still think it was the right decision for ME, with my seniority at NJA. I have been sleeping really well at night.

Thanks again to everyone who posted sincere opinions.

A prosperous '07 for all.

 

[RideandDrive]

I left Jetblue for NJA a while ago. Now CAL I'm sure is a much better airline than Jetblue so the comparison isn't entirely valid.

7 and 7 to me is the best schedule in the world. I used to fly 16 day trips for Polar so 7 days is not a long time in my world.

No commuting is the other thing I love.

There is more to do, but I only have two speeds...go and stop so I tend not to wear myself out on the road. No one asks you to rush around here at NJA.

 

[On Your Six]

I left Jetblue for NJA a while ago. Now CAL I'm sure is a much better airline than Jetblue so the comparison isn't entirely valid.

7 and 7 to me is the best schedule in the world. I used to fly 16 day trips for Polar so 7 days is not a long time in my world.

No commuting is the other thing I love.

There is more to do, but I only have two speeds...go and stop so I tend not to wear myself out on the road. No one asks you to rush around here at NJA.

I think you will hear more people at Jetblue doing the same in the near future. I know two people (one Bus driver and one EMB driver) seriously thinking about returning to NJA.

 

[AV80R]

Gina - congratulations on finding out what's best for you! The only thing that really matters is that you're happy and it sounds like you are.

I see so many people who seem to be unhappy with their lives &/or jobs - I always think of some of my friends who'd kill to be in the "complainer's" shoes. Life ain't fair but if you try your best and focus on what's important to you and your family there’s always a way to achieve happiness even in our uncertain profession.

Again, congrats to you Gina!