Another dual engine flameout

[RVATOR]

Doesnt someone need to die to make an offical AD?....just kidding not really funny but it seems thats what it takes. I suppose twice should be a big red flag that something needs fixed, be it aircraft or proceedures.

 

[Lead Sled]

Doesnt someone need to die to make an offical AD?....just kidding not really funny but it seems thats what it takes. I suppose twice should be a big red flag that something needs fixed, be it aircraft or proceedures.

You've got that right. Many (most) regulations can be traced back to accidents. The FARs are literally written in blood.

'Sled

 

[jimcav]

Glad to hear it turned out like it did. Kudos to the crew.

 

[Stealthh21]

So anyway...Good job to the crew. We are all happy that they are safe.

 

[NYCPilot]

How are the flight controls acutated in that plane.

If you dead sick it in, are your hydraulics lost or are they backed up. Wondering if its tough flying manually. Isn't this "manual reversion."

 

[joepilot111]

Hydrualics?

it flown the same way a C-150 flies, old fashioned cables.

 

[learflyer]

the spoilers (no ailerons on beechjet) are not hydraulic. Just cables.

 

[Quebec]

would like to know more about this.. need refresher on whether this will qualify for NTSB follow up and what NTSB url will be so we can share with the gang at www.fractionalforum.com

 

[jsingel]

T-1 specifics

400A,
The military T-1 has cables for all flight controls and the only fuel heater is the pilot descending when he reaches his fuel temp limit of -40C.

 

[Fedmagnet]

jsingel

400A,
The military T-1 has cables for all flight controls and the only fuel heater is the pilot descending when he reaches his fuel temp limit of -40C.

Most do not pay any attention to that, and the ones that have questioned it are told "It's ok, keep an eye on it". The flight planners at Flops default each flight plan to the highest known altitude of each aircraft and the pilots are compelled to struggle to these altitudes so they won't get into any trouble with the fuel nazzies.
The fuel savings are very good if you shut down both engines at TOD and land.
Flops pilots are taught to ignore all those pesky LIMITATIONS in the AFM.

 

[Quebec]

Most do not pay any attention to that, and the ones that have questioned it are told "It's ok, keep an eye on it". The flight planners at Flops default each flight plan to the highest known altitude of each aircraft and the pilots are compelled to struggle to these altitudes so they won't get into any trouble with the fuel nazzies.
The fuel savings are very good if you shut down both engines at TOD and land.
Flops pilots are taught to ignore all those pesky LIMITATIONS in the AFM.

FedMagnet..forgive my naivety .. let me clarify, are you saying:
a) that FLOPS flight planners put the planes at risk be sending 'em too high (cold soak wing, potential Prist issues / core lock..etc..)
b) couldn't FLOPS pilots just say .. "eh.. let's stop at FL 390, I'm not feeling like a good soldier today"? (or do they then get beat up for sipping too much fuel at 390 vs. 410 or whatever?)
We run this site www.fractionalforum.com and this site www.rsvpair.com and we have a vested interest in getting "the truth" out..whatever it is..whether FLOPS looks like a star or demon. Also.. if you have web links that can document / verify any big claims you can make.. we can post it for the members of those two sites.

I still don't know what the reason was for them not being able to get a restart.. wouldn't it be possible once they made it back to warmer temperatures?

 

[Lead Sled]

I still don't know what the reason was for them not being able to get a restart.. wouldn't it be possible once they made it back to warmer temperatures?

Assuming that the engines flamed out because of ice formation in the fuel, the airplane will be descending faster than the ice is going to be melting.

'Sled

 

[Quebec]

Assuming that the engines flamed out because of ice formation in the fuel, the airplane will be descending faster than the ice is going to be melting.

'Sled

ah / ok..thank you.. I am confused since I have no turbojet type ratings or experienced and I have heard of some lucky folks getting a restart, but what you are saying is that it is just as likely (in a real bad cold soak situation) that the ice build up is so significant that there is not enough time to "get the melt" when it is performing its new role as "bad glider."

 

[Lead Sled]

ah / ok..thank you.. I am confused since I have no turbojet type ratings or experienced and I have heard of some lucky folks getting a restart, but what you are saying is that it is just as likely (in a real bad cold soak situation) that the ice build up is so significant that there is not enough time to "get the melt" when it is performing its new role as "bad glider."

Quebec...
That's why I prefaced my remarks with ice being the culprit. There can be other reasons for an engine(s) to quit at altitude such as:

Fuel Exhaustion - Unless you happen to have some fuel hiding somewhere else on the airplane (that you can get to) you're probably not going to get them relit. I said it the way I did on purpose - some aircraft (Lear 25s and 35s for example) have fuel in tanks that can't be directly accessed by the engines. That fuel has to be pumped into the wing tanks once there has been enough burn off to provide space. This rate of transfer might not be enough to sustain 2 engines on some airplanes.

Aerodynamic Reasons - Some engines can be susceptible to airflow interruptions at high altitudes. There are many stories out there of engine flameouts in Lear 24s and 25s due to airflow interruptions. Under these conditions it's likely that the engine will restart once you get the airplane to a lower altitude.

Mechanical Reasons - Such as a failure of a jet pump or an engine-driven high-pressure fuel pump. If you have an engine driven pump you're probably not going to get a restart. If you've had a jet pump failure, the engine will restart at a lower altitude.

I haven't provided much detail, but I hope this helps you to understand.

'Sled

 

[Quebec]

Quebec...
That's why I prefaced my remarks with ice being the culprit. There can be other reasons for an engine(s) to quit at altitude such as:

Fuel Exhaustion - Unless you happen to have some fuel hiding somewhere else on the airplane (that you can get to) you're probably not going to get them relit. I said it the way I did on purpose - some aircraft (Lear 25s and 35s for example) have fuel in tanks that can't be directly accessed by the engines. That fuel has to be pumped into the wing tanks once there has been enough burn off to provide space. This rate of transfer might not be enough to sustain 2 engines on some airplanes.

Aerodynamic Reasons - Some engines can be susceptible to airflow interruptions at high altitudes. There are many stories out there of engine flameouts in Lear 24s and 25s due to airflow interruptions. Under these conditions it's likely that the engine will restart once you get the airplane to a lower altitude.

Mechanical Reasons - Such as a failure of a jet pump or an engine-driven high-pressure fuel pump. If you have an engine driven pump you're probably not going to get a restart. If you've had a jet pump failure, the engine will restart at a lower altitude.

I haven't provided much detail, but I hope this helps you to understand.

'Sled

Sled,
Very helpful thank you... we'll also be keeping an eye out for NTSB and FAA findings on this event...also.. we've heard (in these forums) that this is not the second, but perhaps the 4th such event ... can anyone corroborate that?
Also.. what is the penalty for not reporting an incident...if memory serves the FAR's require us to report certain things (like ad hoc gliding lessons in turbojet aircraft) in order to be square with NTSB reporting. Anyone got ideas there?

Thanks again Sled...for the help.