AMR pilots; how many on furlough, when do you expect recalls to start?

[Andy]

AA wants to implement a preferential bid process. Some think that would eliminate the need for about 500 pilot positions. This will be another test of the "pliability" of the AA pilots' union.

Recalls? My guess is at least another 18 months before a very slow recall starts.

Draginass, back in 1999/2000, Northwest had preferential bidding (still does). They computed that it saved about 5% in manpower requirements. If you currently have 10,000 pilots, you'll need 9,500 with preferential bidding.
Management at United got our pilots to take preferential bidding during the paul whiteford (ex-MEC Chairman) giveaways. However, since whiteford had already sold the pilots on heinous QOL schedules where you pretty much fly 1000 hrs/yr hard time, the impact of preferential bidding is lessened a bit. However, it does screw the lineholders out of vacation drops, adding a couple of percentage points to crew efficiency.
I just hope that APA doesn't give away unlimited 70 seaters. WTF was whiteford thinking? Oh yeah, save the pensions. Well, we all saw how that one played out. Nothing like selling out the bottom half of the seniority list hoping that management wouldn't take away our pensions. This should be airline union 101 stuff ... if management has an opportunity to take $hit away, they will. Giving away other stuff to try to save something that they can wipe out in BK court is just plain stupid. Take note everyone from Northwest and Delta; I hope that they don't wipe out your pensions, but don't give away the farm trying to save 'em. Management can wipe 'em out in BK court in the blink of an eye.

 

[AAflyer]

Draginass, back in 1999/2000, Northwest had preferential bidding (still does). They computed that it saved about 5% in manpower requirements. If you currently have 10,000 pilots, you'll need 9,500 with preferential bidding.
Management at United got our pilots to take preferential bidding during the paul whiteford (ex-MEC Chairman) giveaways. However, since whiteford had already sold the pilots on heinous QOL schedules where you pretty much fly 1000 hrs/yr hard time, the impact of preferential bidding is lessened a bit. However, it does screw the lineholders out of vacation drops, adding a couple of percentage points to crew efficiency.
I just hope that APA doesn't give away unlimited 70 seaters. WTF was whiteford thinking? Oh yeah, save the pensions. Well, we all saw how that one played out. Nothing like selling out the bottom half of the seniority list hoping that management wouldn't take away our pensions. This should be airline union 101 stuff ... if management has an opportunity to take $hit away, they will. Giving away other stuff to try to save something that they can wipe out in BK court is just plain stupid. Take note everyone from Northwest and Delta; I hope that they don't wipe out your pensions, but don't give away the farm trying to save 'em. Management can wipe 'em out in BK court in the blink of an eye.

Hi Andy,

That has many of us a little worried (giving away unlimited 70 seat). The membership here has seen what other companies have done are slowly realizing what could happen. With the latest management bonuses, and upcoming elections in a few bases you may finally see a shift in control at the APA BOD level. The line pilots are starting to get feed up with what has been going on. Hope all is well with you. Hang in there.

AA

 

[AA717driver]

I think the PDP'ers are morons on the other side of the spectrum from the "give everything away and hope for the best" morons but considering APA has a clear view of how things have happened at the other carriers, I doubt having a more hard-line group running things will hurt.

Knowing that giving away the store didn't save UAL's pay and bennies, they should watch how the hard line plays out at NWA and adapt accordingly.

Having a change at the top during critical times isn't a good thing but it may be necessary if they start down the road to concessions with nothing in return.TC

 

[Kugelblitz]

For what it is worth (I'll save you the trouble, its' nothing) but I don't think any of us former TWA guys will ever get back on the property.

I know there are a lot of nice AA guys out there, I have met you. But I do think the silent (or not so in MIA) majority would prefer us not to be back on the property. I imagine they assume we would be very hard to work with. I think AMR also feels the same way. Poison pill employees.

So don't make any plans on returning if you are red, sorry, but I am pretty sure that is a fairly realistic appraisal of the situation. It seem to me that lifetime recall rights are about as useless as no furlough clauses.

 

[PHX767]

Kugel,

I don't understand your post. Do you think that the former TW guys on the list will be skipped over? I mean, there were TW guys furloughed before me, and after me. I expect that they will be recalled (or invited to) in seniority order. What would make you think differently?

 

[AA717driver]

PHX--There is a school of thought among some of the more junior TWA people that has a grand scheme to get rid of them because of their higher seniority for pay purposes or just the fact that they want to rid the airline of TWA people.

That shows a misunderstanding of AMR management. They hate all employees, pilots most of all. Roy Everett doesn't see a distinction between the groups--he's just out to hose the pilot group as much as possible.

The company gave APA carte blanche to construct the list as they wished. The company furloughed in seniority order and they will recall in seniority order.TC

 

[aa73]

Gentlemen...

While I'm sure there are some of you that believe in the "conspiracy theory" of preventing TWA folks back onto the property, it simply isn't true. As 717drvr said, everyone gets recalled in seniority order.

Now, if there are several TWAers that don't wish to come back due to bitterness or having found better jobs elsewhere, who can blame them? AA isn't the end all, be all of airline jobs, and those that were furloughed early on have probably upgraded to CA somewhere else already!

As far as those that do come back - I'm sure you'll find that for the most part, 99% of our pilots are utmost professionals in the cockpit regardless of your background. (I flew with the 1% a couple months ago - wasn't pretty.)

I for one want to see everyone back on the property because that means growth and advancement for all.

P.S. There is pretty good eveidence that we will be recalling 25 in April and 25 in May, for starters.

 

[CSY Mon]

P.S. There is pretty good eveidence that we will be recalling 25 in April and 25 in May, for starters.

Hmm, where did you hear that....?

It must be official if you have pretty good evidence.

Lets hope the ball starts rolling in the right direction for once.
Not sure what I would say if I got the call.

 

[aa73]

Check airman friend of mine who attended a meeting with all the chiefs.

 

[XTW]

Gentlemen...
As far as those that do come back - I'm sure you'll find that for the most part, 99% of our pilots are utmost professionals in the cockpit regardless of your background. (I flew with the 1% a couple months ago - wasn't pretty.)

aa73,

I will have to reserve judgement on that if I ever decide to return. I can tell you from personal experience my last two years on the property, that the "regardless of your background" statement isn't quite true.

When we (TW types) started wearing AA uniforms, but still operating as the LLC, "native" crews were OK to talk to until they found out we were THEM. At that point the conversations turned very cool at best, outright ugly at worst. I have been personally blamed for the "buyout", up to, "the reason AA is in financial straights now". Give me a frickin' break.

The last two years of job atmosphere sucked, not to mention having my base closed and forced to commute. It's one that I would hate to "have " to go back to.

Your experience may be totally different since I get the impression you were "hired, not acquired".(just like the buttons the FA's were wearing)

I'm not bitter, I'm just pointing out that "background" does make a difference. These were my experiences, and I wasn't even working in the same cockpit.



X

 

[aa73]

aa73,

I will have to reserve judgement on that if I ever decide to return. I can tell you from personal experience my last two years on the property, that the "regardless of your background" statement isn't quite true.

When we (TW types) started wearing AA uniforms, but still operating as the LLC, "native" crews were OK to talk to until they found out we were THEM. At that point the conversations turned very cool at best, outright ugly at worst. I have been personally blamed for the "buyout", up to, "the reason AA is in financial straights now". Give me a frickin' break.

The last two years of job atmosphere sucked, not to mention having my base closed and forced to commute. It's one that I would hate to "have " to go back to.

Your experience may be totally different since I get the impression you were "hired, not acquired".(just like the buttons the FA's were wearing)

I'm not bitter, I'm just pointing out that "background" does make a difference. These were my experiences, and I wasn't even working in the same cockpit.



X

Yo X,

I have no doubt that, outside the cockpit, there was definitely some tension between the two pilot groups. I personally know several TWA folks that were harassed by my "colleagues" at AA. Likewise for AA pilots, including yours truly on the STL employee bus when I was based there, by a senior OZ/TW captain. I blew it off with my standard retort, "it was out of my hands, brotha'." The history books are rife with examples when two pilot groups combine. NWA/Rep, DAL/PAA, and soon to be US/AWA. It is a by-product of mergers/acquisitions and ours is no different.

My point is this - INSIDE the cockpit, we both are professional enough to leave our personal issues aside and work together to deliver a safe flight for our customers - regardless of background. I know this for a fact since we have been operating SLT safely for three years now with TW CAs and AA FOs. Likewise, we have some TW pilots who have bid out of SLT to other AA bases and flown with AA CAs. If and when you choose to return, you will see it's no different.

Yes, I was "hired not acquired." I never let that cloud my judgment, though. I always realized that there were a lot of good TWA folks who bore the brunt of the furloughs. Guess what, I've also been personally blamed - for the integration. What can one do? When someone is about to get furloughed, their emotions get the best of them and they tend to blame someone in a "native" AA uniform for all their problems. I realized that and handled it accordingly - not like some of my colleagues who would have just rubbed it in their faces and in some cases, gone to blows. Talk about unprofessional. Those of you who bore the brunt of the furloughs were truly in an unfortunate situation, and I feel for every one of you - both TWA and AA pilots.

regards and GL,
73

 

[CSY Mon]

Check airman friend of mine who attended a meeting with all the chiefs.

Roger on that.

Lemme see, I've got about 830 or 840 furloughed guys in front of me, not counting them flowthroughs that sued to get class dates before any furloughed guys.

IF the lawsuit gets dismissed, and if 1/3 of the guys don't wanne come back, that would be about 575 to 600 numbers between me and a MD-80 F/O seat and a crash-pad in Queens.

Hmm, may have to defer a few months or whatever long it takes to hold the B-767 in MIA...That was a sweet life indeed.

 

[Kugelblitz]

Kugel,

I don't understand your post. Do you think that the former TW guys on the list will be skipped over? I mean, there were TW guys furloughed before me, and after me. I expect that they will be recalled (or invited to) in seniority order. What would make you think differently?

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I am thinking, and man that hurts, that we are in a very convenient place for them right now. I personally think that the majority of the on-property folks (including management) would prefer we stay where we are.

I don't pretend to have any inside info, I don't think there is some sort of concerted effort to keep up out, but we are here because we were put here by the powers that be, and it seems reasonable to think they would like us to stay here (here=furloughed).

I know there are unlimited recall rights for us, but I think those things are negotiable. I assure you, our recall rights are not as important as say, pension plans. In fact, and I know I am being quite cynical and pessimisstic, but I would say that the majority of the on-property folks would put a lot of things ahead of our recall rights and would negotiate them away as they see accordingly. Remember, we were just lucky to even have a job. TWA brought them no value, hence, valueless pilots. Though I have to think the presently employed AA pilots flying from STL (oops, I mean SLT) ,rather than being on the streets with us, must see some value in TWA.

Again, this is not to besmirch the AA pilots, I bear no grudges, and I have met plenty of you over the last few years who have been quite friendly and understanding, and regretfull for the difficulties we furloughees are enduring. But I do think the silent majority is quite happy with the status quo, and will endeavor to keep it as is.

Just my thoughts, I won't be able to respond to any rejoinders for awhile, I start a new job this week.

Peace

 

[AA717driver]

Good luck on the new job Kugel! I hope you find that inner peace that XTW and I have. Well, the tequila helps, too...

Since he's not here, I blame G4G5 for all the woes that have befallen me and my TWA bretheren since the buyout. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

See you later, gotta let the dog in.TC

 

[80drvr]

Hmm, where did you hear that....?

It must be official if you have pretty good evidence.

Lets hope the ball starts rolling in the right direction for once.
Not sure what I would say if I got the call.

I heard the same recall rumor (fourth hand) from a buddy this weekend who was flying a trip with a guy who had a high muckity muck friend in the training dept. 25 April/25 May. I'll believe it when I see it though, because we've all heard recall rumors before and with this outfit, things chAAnge!

 

[catIIIc]

I've heard parking of 15 md80's after the 4th quarter results.

 

[80drvr]

I've heard parking of 15 md80's after the 4th quarter results.

Well, management will look pretty stupid if the fourth quarter is bloodier than expected after patting themselves on the back with cash bonuses. The rank and file are already revolting...parking more airplanes will fan the flames. I'd be surprised if they parked additional assets for the summer.

 

[SKY GOD]

Hey Tim... I mean AA717,...... 2,120 posts on this site alone???

Does corp flying on the southeast side of Indy Airport actually allow you this much time, or do you have a SAT connection in that G5 that allows you to plug in your laptop and access all those message boards you spend time on?

Good luck on the new job Kugel! I hope you find that inner peace that XTW and I have. Well, the tequila helps, too...

Since he's not here, I blame G4G5 for all the woes that have befallen me and my TWA bretheren since the buyout. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

See you later, gotta let the dog in.TC

 

[Andy]

Good luck to everyone; hope you start recalls soon. For those on furlough, take a look at how fast UAL is going through the seniority list for recalls. We've got better than a 60% bypass rate, so once things get moving in the right direction, you'll be surprised at how fast all 2855 get called back.

 

[XTW]

We've got better than a 60% bypass rate, so once things get moving in the right direction, you'll be surprised at how fast all 2855 get called back.

Don't threaten us like that! I have to make it to 50 before the call comes! Oh well, back to TC's tequila stash.


Jim, I mean "Sky God", that's a pretty lofty opinion of yourself to take that handle isn't it?:laugh:


X