American Master Re-Bid

[PacoPollo]

Jetexas...
A couple points. One...Eagle exists as an exemption of scope. And Two... the flow up and back is a two way street my friend. The point of who flies those jets is a negotiation between APA and AMR (scope).

Steveg...no arrogance here my friend. I busted my ass for years to get to where I am and I haven't forgotten where I have come from. Pilots fly the plane and managements job is to fill them and make a profit. I am just a bit curious how the pilots at AA are responsible for the current financial situation. Carty and his buddies in the ivory towers have made many poor decisions ie: stock buyback, Canadian Airlines, Reno, more room through coach, TWA and his latest and last F UP....take from the employees and setup trust funds for upper management and the board.

Eagle exists as an exemption of scope?? Really?
That why you APA pukes try to play with AE contract and change things on it? The APA and Management is kinda scared Now Because of Letter 3. I really wish they implement letter 3 and throw that New TA down the toilet with the rest of the APA
scAAbs.
You guys are worthless

 

[80drvr]

Eagle exists as an exemption of scope?? Really?
That why you APA pukes try to play with AE contract and change things on it? The APA and Management is kinda scared Now Because of Letter 3. I really wish they implement letter 3 and throw that New TA down the toilet with the rest of the APA
scAAbs.
You guys are worthless

Do you have any clue what will happen to you if the scope changes in the new TA revert back to a strict interpretation of Supp W (letter 3 to you)? If you do, please respond.

 

[PacoPollo]

Yes I do have a clue.
It cant get any worse than is right now pal.
Furlough protection for ALL Eagle pilots as a result of flowbacks
Wouldnt mine staying home while getting paid.
So dont try to scare AE pilots pal.

 

[80drvr]

Yes I do have a clue.
It cant get any worse than is right now pal.
Furlough protection for ALL Eagle pilots as a result of flowbacks
Wouldnt mine staying home while getting paid.
So dont try to scare AE pilots pal.

Hey Pal! What d'ya mean it can't get any worse, Pal. Did you happen to notice that most of the AA pilots had furlough protections until about 3 weeks ago. There are close to 400 potential flowbacks to Eagle if the previous permutation of Supp W/Letter 3 is enforced and there would be no growth at eagle due to the ASM cap. Executive gets sold to free up some ASMs and new RJ's go to American Connection.

Do you really think that AMR would honor your no furlough clause because it's in writing. Or would they do what they have to do right now and deal with an arbitrator's decision in three years.

So don't try to scare AA pilots, Pal.

 

[TWA Dude]

Actually, I have applied to SWA and JBLU. If this ship sinks and I start over at another airline, I know exactly which part of the list I'll be on.

Of course. If you quit your airline and go someplace you start at the bottom. If your airline fails and you go someplace else you start at the bottom. Neither happened to TWA. What might've happened is a different topic. Technically AA "hired" me in April 2001 but I never quit TWA nor did it go out of business. (As we all know, Chap 11 is not the same at Chap 7 which is going out of business.) I simply kept going to work and the name on my paystub changed. I also wasn't on probation, hence I was not a new-hire. My seniority date changed to 2001 but my hire date remained 1999.

This is a tough industry that uses the Seniority system rather than a Merit system for advancement. Most of the flying public may say "tisk, tisk" about a 1988-hire ex-TWA captain being furloughed while a 1999 AA hire stays but all they care about is the ticket price.

Keep in mind that without so many ex-TWA guys at the bottom it's very likely that "native" AA'ers would've been furloughed in much greater numbers than apparently will occur. This differs from Air-Cal and Reno in that most of the TWA planes are being kept or replaced while most of the pilots are furloughed. Native AA'ers will soon be flying ex-TWA metal en masse, albeit through displacement.

What's the point of all this? The expression "career expectations" is purely rhetorical and meaningless. It's nothing more than a biased personal opinion. The APA stapled approx. 60% of the ex-TWA pilots because they could and because they felt to staple more wouldn't stand up in court. "Fairness" isn't an issue. I'm not going to whine about the Integration, but I object to those trying to justify it. It was just business and I don't take it personally. Unfortunately many are taking it personally and all they'll end up with higher blood pressure and nothing of benefit.

 

[justApilot]

Paco...
Yes infact Eagle does exist as a result of scope...I believe it was the '87 contract.

 

[Intruder One]

I'm going to have to agree with the AA guys on this one.TWA was a unusual case but just because you are bought should not make you a yr.1 employee.APA must be crap even ALPA does not do this.Us Air & Piedmont,Western & Delta and others,they lost some things but they didn't go to bottom.Lets say JB gets bought by Southwest(and I'm no fan of JB) but they shouldn't go to bottom.I'm sure these post would be alot different if it was someone else.Although it could work out in managements favor,just buy another company and make everyone a new hire.It would sure save on payroll.

 

[Cleared Direct]

Hey Pal! What d'ya mean it can't get any worse, Pal. Did you happen to notice that most of the AA pilots had furlough protections until about 3 weeks ago. There are close to 400 potential flowbacks to Eagle if the previous permutation of Supp W/Letter 3 is enforced and there would be no growth at eagle due to the ASM cap. Executive gets sold to free up some ASMs and new RJ's go to American Connection.

Do you really think that AMR would honor your no furlough clause because it's in writing. Or would they do what they have to do right now and deal with an arbitrator's decision in three years.

So don't try to scare AA pilots, Pal.

80drvr,

You obviously are clueless about APA's situation. APA has already ratified the TA. It is not a choice between the TA or Supplement w/Letter 3. The TA is now ratified contractual language and APA only has the ability to change one item in exchange for something of equal value. Guess what? Your clip only has one bullet left. There is no going back to the ASM cap unless you want to exchange it for something of equal value. Same thing for the changes in scope.

Under pressure you shot your load for protection of your A and B fund. You really think that Darrah is going to ask the rank and file at APA to give up even more to secure jobs at Eagle for their junior pilots? Get real! APA eats there young. They are the inventors of B scale. It is all about securing retirement for the pilots, not securing a job for their young.

If APA wants to change their contractual language and flow back 400-500 furloughs into EMJ Captain positions at Eagle, I encourage it. This will still be better for Eagle pilots than to magically give all AA furloughs (2400 or more pilots) recall rights to the CJ Captain positions at Eagle. The company does not want to spend another dime on this mess either. APA's estimate for the training costs would be only 10 million. The company will have a very different number for the actual domino training costs at Eagle.

There will be no 3 year arbitration results with Supp W/ Letter 3. It has it's own mandated expedited arbitration process.

The Allied Pinheads Association stepped on their d*cks again on this one.

 

[justApilot]

Intruder....
Any comments on the following Delta and PanAm, Northwest and Republic, Southwest and Morris?

 

[80drvr]

80drvr,

You obviously are clueless about APA's situation. APA has already ratified the TA. It is not a choice between the TA or Supplement w/Letter 3. The TA is now ratified contractual language and APA only has the ability to change one item in exchange for something of equal value. Guess what? Your clip only has one bullet left. There is no going back to the ASM cap unless you want to exchange it for something of equal value. Same thing for the changes in scope.

Under pressure you shot your load for protection of your A and B fund. You really think that Darrah is going to ask the rank and file at APA to give up even more to secure jobs at Eagle for their junior pilots? Get real! APA eats there young. They are the inventors of B scale. It is all about securing retirement for the pilots, not securing a job for their young.

If APA wants to change their contractual language and flow back 400-500 furloughs into EMJ Captain positions at Eagle, I encourage it. This will still be better for Eagle pilots than to magically give all AA furloughs (2400 or more pilots) recall rights to the CJ Captain positions at Eagle. The company does not want to spend another dime on this mess either. APA's estimate for the training costs would be only 10 million. The company will have a very different number for the actual domino training costs at Eagle.

There will be no 3 year arbitration results with Supp W/ Letter 3. It has it's own mandated expedited arbitration process.

The Allied Pinheads Association stepped on their d*cks again on this one.

I am far from cluesless about the APA's situation and don't need an education from you explaining the history of this miserable contract. I doubt you'd like a history lesson from me on your 16yr jewel.

I rather doubt that scope and flowthrough would ever snap back to the verbage of the last contract; but, that seems to be the desire of several from the eagle side of the house.

Why do you think AMR didn't engage Eagle ALPA in negotiations ? I am genuinely curious. Especially since AMR was really dictating, not "negotiating" with it's unions.

 

[pilot141]

This message board is a JOKE!

After the original question was posted, there was one (ONE!) helpful response by justApilot and then the sarcasm, snide remarks and general a**holery began. It seems that anything is a good excuse for the APA/AA bashers (whether they are TWA, Eagle, ALPA or whoever) to get their hackles up and post worthless invective on this board. The same is true when any thread gets started about Delta, it's just different bashers.

Message boards like this provide a level of anonymity that allow people to speak their minds and express things that they sometimes wouldn't say in front of people they know. This CAN be a good thing, like asking about the lifestyle at XYZ airline without having anyone but you know that you might be looking for a new job.

Unfortunately people here have used the Internet Anonymity Shield to transform themselves into the most rabid, zealous and backstabbing people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter.

Yes, there are bad feelings out there, but remember that this thread started out as a question about the master bid run at AA. If any of you want to start a thread about how APA sucks, or how Eagle gets screwed at every opportunity, or how the whole world should honor an X-year captain, then by all means START YOUR OWN THREAD!

Bottom line.....hijacking is bad .

 

[pylut]

posted by pilot 141
"Unfortunately people here have used the Internet Anonymity Shield to transform themselves into the most rabid, zealous and backstabbing people I have ever had the misfortune to encounter."

I find that hard to believe considering you work and associate with individuals from aa/apa.

 

[blott]

After the original question was posted, there was one (ONE!) helpful response by justApilot

If you wanted to thank justApilot, then you said enough right there.

Why continue on with your post and WASTE my, and everyone else's, time with the rest of your lengthy post? Seems like you are trying to HI-jack your own thread with coments like that. Why don't you try to be part of the solution, instead of furthering the problem?

Wait a min. Looks like I'm falling into the same trap....

B

P.S. Please disregard the above post.

 

[Cleared Direct]

I rather doubt that scope and flowthrough would ever snap back to the verbage of the last contract; but, that seems to be the desire of several from the eagle side of the house.

I have a bit of legal news for you. Letter 3 is the law of the land unless all 4 parties agree to something else. It is very clear in Letter 3 that if there is a conflict between Letter 3 and any contractual language, Letter 3 prevails. The Eagle ALPA MEC and most of the Eagle pilots see the new ratified contractual language at AMR as a bad thing for Eagle pilots in the long run. Although APA did waive their rights to flow back to current EMJ Captain positions, unfortunately for us it also subjects our entire pilot group to a huge vulnerability in giving recall rights to the vacated flowback positions to ALL furloughed AA pilots. We want a negotiated agreement that it good for Eagle, APA, and the company.

The senior group of fuloughed AA pilots have every right to contractually displace 400-500 CJ Captains at Eagle. What they can't do is re-write Letter 3 and magically give all furloughed AA pilots recall rights to positions at Eagle. The cold facts are that the company does not want to spend the large amount of money and time to displace these postions. APA will not ask for even more concessions from their members to secure additional jobs at Eagle outside of Letter 3. A negotiated settlement is the best for all.

If you want some more informative reading on Letter 3 / Supplement W, than check out this site:

http://www.letter3.org/

Why do you think AMR didn't engage Eagle ALPA in negotiations ? I am genuinely curious. Especially since AMR was really dictating, not "negotiating" with it's unions.

While it is true that AMR was dictating most of the concession terms to the unions, they also desperately needed to appease APA enough to ensure the ratification of the important terms. AMR has never been concerned with appeasing Eagle. They would sacrifice Eagle in a minute to please APA. To involve Eagle ALPA in the negotiated concessions would only complicate the process, and possibly prevent APA from ratifying the terms. Instead the company chose to lead you down a dead end alley and promise things they knew they could not necessarily give you. They know there will be a negotiated or arbitrated settlement that will surely be cheaper than if APA had not chosen to ratify the TA and followed by a rushed Chapter 11 filing.

Now AMR has a baseline of concessionary labor agreements and even concessions from its vendors. These were crucial steps that AMR desperately wanted before they file Chapter 11.

 

[eaglefly]

JustA - WRONG ! It is a CONTRACTUAL REQUIREMENT for negotiations between AMR, APA and Eagle ALPA.

80drvr (also known as "pal") - You are terribly uninformed regarding Eagle's Letter 3. The corrupt and ethically bankrupt thugs leading your union falsely imply that acceptance of this unilaterally devised "new" flow-back agreement is better for the helpless and subservient pilots of Eagle.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Should this illegal aspect of your TA go unchallenged, it would harm Eagle pilots FAR more than forced acceptance.

I'll explain why.

Letter 3 provides for the DISPLACEMENT of current flow-thru captains ONLY by those AA pilots senior to them.

THERE ARE ABSOLUTELY NO PROVISIONS FOR AA FURLOUGHEES TO FILL NEW AIRCRAFT VACANCIES.

As a result, a specific and limited number of AA pilots would be eligable to flow-back. That is approximately 450 based on the CURRENT estimated number of furloughs.

Once any given Eagle flow-thru captain is DISPLACED by an AA furloughee SENIOR to them, that captain has the ability to reclaim a new vacancy and then be protected from displacement because at that point all remaining AA furloughees WOULD BE JUNIOR TO THEM ON THE AA LIST and thus cannot displace them.

This will ultimately result in an even smaller number of available slots for flow-backs once the process begins.

Flow-thru captains were awarded "occupational seniority" that carries little weight at AA until that pilot is on the AA payroll. But, at Eagle that "occupational seniority" still provides him value with respect to AA furloughee rights regarding pilots JUNIOR to him on the AA list.

Under the "NEW" illegal Supplement W, Eagle pilots forfeit ALL rights to new vacancies AND inaddition allow access to Eagle captains seats by pilots previously PROHIBITED from flow-back access as represented by AMR. That would be the pilots of TWA.

So under current Letter 3, AA furloughees get at most a few hundred slots. No one here would argue that because THAT HAS, AND IS, THE AGREEMENT.

Under the new illegal TA, for all intents and purposes, the sky's the limit. THAT IS NOT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN, THE AGREEMENT.

But that is not the worst aspect of this filth devised by the APA. What really would virtually nullify any seniority protections of our agreement is should Eagle ALPA just capitulate, it would set a precedent that could allow AMR or the APA to rechange the definitions and boundaries of Letter 3 in the future.

Any number of changes including but not limited to, extending flow-back rights to mainline furloughees indefinitely, cancelation of Eagle flow-thru numbers at expiration of Letter 3, inclusion of future pilots not currently on the AA seniority list but acquired through another merger or acquisition, etc., etc.

If that is allowed to occur, the pilots of Eagle will forever forfeit the most senior positions at their airline to the whim of another pilots groups union.

That my friend, will not be allowed to occur. At that point EVERY single Eagle pilot might as well resign and let AMR figure out how to staff 250 parked airplanes BEFORE the resultant customer and revenue loss forces them into immeadiate bankruptcy. We'll see what the liars and cheats of the APA say when the four parties supposedly meet later this week to discuss the situation.

In the mean time, fly safe "pal".

P.S. AMR NEVER negotiates first. They only do that when "dictating" and "threatening" no longer works.

Of all people, AA pilots should have figured that out by now.

 

[justApilot]

Well atleast there was enough juice left in the swell this PM.

 

[80drvr]

To 80 pilot and Just a pilot: F**k you both!

You have no idea in the slightest how much hatred and venom flows through the F/O's at Eagle. You have NO idea. Don't think empty threats will make us back down on inch. Maybe you military guys will think about the classes you took during OCS about subversion and counter-espionage. Do you really think we are all just 20 something kids flying around in RJ's. I can't wait until you boys trickle into our world you have no idea what you are in for. Do think that the full implementation of Letter 3 or Supplement W will effect the F/O's at Eagle...NO! We are covered by a cause that prevents our furlough.
You APA guys may have gotten things right your way but I assure you those who come to the Eagle side will certainly not be so lucky. We are waiting and there will be a restoration of Jim Crow laws for all of you. APA you had your chance and we (Eagle pilots) tried numberious times to get together but you stabbed us in the back. Good luck to your future because we got your number....

No ScAAbs!

I was an Eagle pilot.

 

[justApilot]

Resistance....and others that feel the need to make threatening remarks....

I understand your frustration but....I along with, I would think, the vast majority subscribed to this forum do not appreciate your threats on this thread or any other thread. I think it is time to start signing your posts with your name and airline that employs you. That way we know who you really are.

Stu Peterson
AA





To 80 pilot and Just a pilot: F**k you both!

You have no idea in the slightest how much hatred and venom flows through the F/O's at Eagle. You have NO idea. Don't think empty threats will make us back down on inch. Maybe you military guys will think about the classes you took during OCS about subversion and counter-espionage. Do you really think we are all just 20 something kids flying around in RJ's. I can't wait until you boys trickle into our world you have no idea what you are in for. Do think that the full implementation of Letter 3 or Supplement W will effect the F/O's at Eagle...NO! We are covered by a cause that prevents our furlough.
You APA guys may have gotten things right your way but I assure you those who come to the Eagle side will certainly not be so lucky. We are waiting and there will be a restoration of Jim Crow laws for all of you. APA you had your chance and we (Eagle pilots) tried numberious times to get together but you stabbed us in the back. Good luck to your future because we got your number....

No ScAAbs!

 

[AA717driver]

Eaglefly--Re: "There are absolutely no provisions for AA furloughees to fill new aircraft vacancies."

I read Letter 3 Sec. IV A. to say that, other than the Eagle rights pilots, AA furlougees can displace or move into a CJ CA position at AE "...provided that the number of CJ Captain positions available to furloughed AA pilots will be limited to the total number of CJ Captain positions at AMR Eagle, Inc. less the number of Eagle rights CJ Captains." That guarantees positions only to the Eagle Rights CA's.

Yes, AA furloughees cannot displace more "senior" flowthrough Eagle CA's, but it doesn't guarantee new aircraft positions to AE CA's. Maybe technically it does, but the flowthroughs are already CA's and no new upgrades are guaranteed to the current FO's so you get stuffed by IV A.

As for the CRJ's, if AA moves them from the Eagle certificate to the AA certificate, then Eagle has no CRJ's and thus, no rights to them. You aren't thinking outside the box. I know you guys are frustrated but there are over 2000 AA people who are more frustrated or about to be. Sup W sucks. I'm finding that, these days, there is no right or wrong in the airline business, there's only leverage.TC

 

[justApilot]

Resistance...

I am very aware of 32. Maybe you should think twice before making threats on a public forum. Just because you hide behind a screen name does not mean that I don't know who you are. Good luck bro.