American Master Re-Bid

[bike100k]

Does anyone know the specifics of the AA rebid that is scheduled. I am mostly interested to what DOH will the furloughs go to on the AA side.

Thanks

 

[justApilot]

The most junior furlough protected class is the first class of April 99. This in no means that furloughs will go this deep. What exactly do you want to know about the bid? The prelim bid was done the other day, results on the 19th. The real bid is sometime at the end of the month. The program is a smart program it figures out what your seniority will ultimately hold as the furloughs continue, saving the company millions in training costs and reducing the number of displacements each pilot would have down to just 1.

 

[steveg]

The DOH for TWA is 1989. Captains are being furloughed that were flying when AA new hires were still in grade school.

 

[PacoPollo]

The DOH for TWA is 1989. Captains are being furloughed that were flying when AA new hires were still in grade school.

Gotta love those APA Pilots....

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

An absolute and total disgrace to the TWA pilots. I hope the APA is happy....

 

[holdon]

Simply put...........APA SUCKS

 

[justApilot]

There is no national senority system. You roll the dice....AA hires you,go to AA...CAL hires you, go there. Tway hires you, go to Tway. If you don't like your current situation apply somewhere else. Don't think that just because AA bought Tway that you have some sort of super senority over those that were hired here. That is silly. You get hired by AA and you get a senority number. If AA is buys someone or is bought by someone else, oh well that's the way the ball bounces. Senority does not transfer. Everyone likes to talk about the Tway guys with DOH 89....Yeah so what, you were hired at TWA! The writting was on the wall for years. There are many that took a gamble to leave TWA for greener pastures and then there are some that stayed for whatever reason. Get on with your lives and stop the whining.

 

[General Lee]

There was a REALLY REALLY good chance that ALL of the TWay pilots would have been on the street had AA not bought TWA. And 9-11 would have sealed their fate. Hopefully AA can get it's act together and all or most of the TWay guys can get back on line at AA. It looks like most of them will eventually fly again, and with a good carrier. Let's hope everything gets better in this industry---the economy seems to be going up anyways.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[holdon]

let me guess you were hire Early 2001. And your telling me a Captain with over 15 years seniority AT A MAJOR AIRLINE should hit the street over some 22 year old that got hire April 9 2001?

 

[justApilot]

Let's get something straight Holden. First, I was hired in the April of '99. Second, I was hired by AA. Third, at the time I was 30 years old. And to answer your question.... YES! This arguement has nothing to do with a 15 year captain and a 22 year old new hire. It has to do with someone being hired at AA and someone being hired at TWA. Just because you were hired at either one of these places does not mean that one is more qualified than the other. It has to do with where you were HIRED. If AA didn't think that I was qualified when they hired me than why was I hired. Just because someone is a 15 year Captain or a new hire means nothing. In case this needs further explanation please don't hesitate to PM me and maybe I can explain myself better.

 

[yaks]

AA master rebid

Furloughed from AA beats unemployed from a chapter 7 TWA any day.

 

[Cardinal]

The irony...On one thread the APA gets dissed for putting TWAers towards the bottom of the seniority list and vulnerable to furloughs. On another thread the APA gets dissed for securing positions for these furloughed pilots on 70 (!!) seat RJs - albeit at the expense of young Eagle FOs. The APA's vision at least makes sense, unlike this boards consensus.

 

[80drvr]

let me guess you were hire Early 2001. And your telling me a Captain with over 15 years seniority AT A MAJOR AIRLINE should hit the street over some 22 year old that got hire April 9 2001?

The average age of the AA new hires at the time was 35. About 60 percent were military and the rest did their time at other majors, regionals and corporate outfits.

Your assertion that AA new hires were 22 year olds fresh out of flying school may be convenient for your chest thumping, but it is simply untrue.

 

[pylut]

The apa suggested that TWA pilots had no career expectations because of the Bankruptcy. Now that aa has one foot in bankruptcy I wonder if all you frikking hypocrites are now sending out your aps to protect your career expectations! According to your logic you should be bailing out by the truckload heading to SWA.

 

[cl-65link]

Integration of senoirity lists has ALWAYS favored the group who was employed by the dominant carrier at the time. Just ask the former Republic pilots now at NWA, and so on and so on. The AA/TWA situation is nothing but a repeat of things that have happened in past.

 

[80drvr]

The apa suggested that TWA pilots had no career expectations because of the Bankruptcy. Now that aa has one foot in bankruptcy I wonder if all you frikking hypocrites are now sending out your aps to protect your career expectations! According to your logic you should be bailing out by the truckload heading to SWA.

Actually, I have applied to SWA and JBLU. If this ship sinks and I start over at another airline, I know exactly which part of the list I'll be on.

 

[steveg]

It's pointless trying to argue with AA pilots. They truly do not realize how incredibly arrogant they are. It's going to be interesting watching how they handle the present downturn. Will they continue to feel that the aviation world owes them because they went to work for AA? Or will they begin to realize the tenuous nature of the business and come to realize that you have to treat others with respect? I would love to see AA get bought by someone else and see how the APA handles it, especially since AA is in such bad shape. AA pilots insist that the present state of the airline is all Mgmt's fault. Who here believes they are at least in part responsilbe for their own downfall? I know I do.

 

[jetexas]

"There is no national senority system. You roll the dice....AA hires you,go to AA...CAL hires you, go there. Tway hires you, go to Tway. If you don't like your current situation apply somewhere else."

..Then why is the APA attempting to take all future growth from Eagle pilots, in the form of the CRJ's and future 50+ seat captain seats? Eagle pilots applied to and got hired at Eagle. AA pilots applied to and got hired at AA.

 

[justApilot]

Jetexas...
A couple points. One...Eagle exists as an exemption of scope. And Two... the flow up and back is a two way street my friend. The point of who flies those jets is a negotiation between APA and AMR (scope).

Steveg...no arrogance here my friend. I busted my ass for years to get to where I am and I haven't forgotten where I have come from. Pilots fly the plane and managements job is to fill them and make a profit. I am just a bit curious how the pilots at AA are responsible for the current financial situation. Carty and his buddies in the ivory towers have made many poor decisions ie: stock buyback, Canadian Airlines, Reno, more room through coach, TWA and his latest and last F UP....take from the employees and setup trust funds for upper management and the board.

 

[justApilot]

Pylut...
I have a backup that will always be there if the ship sinks. One difference between the AA situation and that of TWA in the past is .....ICAHN.

 

[PacoPollo]

Jetexas...
A couple points. One...Eagle exists as an exemption of scope. And Two... the flow up and back is a two way street my friend. The point of who flies those jets is a negotiation between APA and AMR (scope).

Steveg...no arrogance here my friend. I busted my ass for years to get to where I am and I haven't forgotten where I have come from. Pilots fly the plane and managements job is to fill them and make a profit. I am just a bit curious how the pilots at AA are responsible for the current financial situation. Carty and his buddies in the ivory towers have made many poor decisions ie: stock buyback, Canadian Airlines, Reno, more room through coach, TWA and his latest and last F UP....take from the employees and setup trust funds for upper management and the board.

Eagle exists as an exemption of scope?? Really?
That why you APA pukes try to play with AE contract and change things on it? The APA and Management is kinda scared Now Because of Letter 3. I really wish they implement letter 3 and throw that New TA down the toilet with the rest of the APA
scAAbs.
You guys are worthless

 

[80drvr]

Eagle exists as an exemption of scope?? Really?
That why you APA pukes try to play with AE contract and change things on it? The APA and Management is kinda scared Now Because of Letter 3. I really wish they implement letter 3 and throw that New TA down the toilet with the rest of the APA
scAAbs.
You guys are worthless

Do you have any clue what will happen to you if the scope changes in the new TA revert back to a strict interpretation of Supp W (letter 3 to you)? If you do, please respond.

 

[PacoPollo]

Yes I do have a clue.
It cant get any worse than is right now pal.
Furlough protection for ALL Eagle pilots as a result of flowbacks
Wouldnt mine staying home while getting paid.
So dont try to scare AE pilots pal.

 

[80drvr]

Yes I do have a clue.
It cant get any worse than is right now pal.
Furlough protection for ALL Eagle pilots as a result of flowbacks
Wouldnt mine staying home while getting paid.
So dont try to scare AE pilots pal.

Hey Pal! What d'ya mean it can't get any worse, Pal. Did you happen to notice that most of the AA pilots had furlough protections until about 3 weeks ago. There are close to 400 potential flowbacks to Eagle if the previous permutation of Supp W/Letter 3 is enforced and there would be no growth at eagle due to the ASM cap. Executive gets sold to free up some ASMs and new RJ's go to American Connection.

Do you really think that AMR would honor your no furlough clause because it's in writing. Or would they do what they have to do right now and deal with an arbitrator's decision in three years.

So don't try to scare AA pilots, Pal.

 

[TWA Dude]

Actually, I have applied to SWA and JBLU. If this ship sinks and I start over at another airline, I know exactly which part of the list I'll be on.

Of course. If you quit your airline and go someplace you start at the bottom. If your airline fails and you go someplace else you start at the bottom. Neither happened to TWA. What might've happened is a different topic. Technically AA "hired" me in April 2001 but I never quit TWA nor did it go out of business. (As we all know, Chap 11 is not the same at Chap 7 which is going out of business.) I simply kept going to work and the name on my paystub changed. I also wasn't on probation, hence I was not a new-hire. My seniority date changed to 2001 but my hire date remained 1999.

This is a tough industry that uses the Seniority system rather than a Merit system for advancement. Most of the flying public may say "tisk, tisk" about a 1988-hire ex-TWA captain being furloughed while a 1999 AA hire stays but all they care about is the ticket price.

Keep in mind that without so many ex-TWA guys at the bottom it's very likely that "native" AA'ers would've been furloughed in much greater numbers than apparently will occur. This differs from Air-Cal and Reno in that most of the TWA planes are being kept or replaced while most of the pilots are furloughed. Native AA'ers will soon be flying ex-TWA metal en masse, albeit through displacement.

What's the point of all this? The expression "career expectations" is purely rhetorical and meaningless. It's nothing more than a biased personal opinion. The APA stapled approx. 60% of the ex-TWA pilots because they could and because they felt to staple more wouldn't stand up in court. "Fairness" isn't an issue. I'm not going to whine about the Integration, but I object to those trying to justify it. It was just business and I don't take it personally. Unfortunately many are taking it personally and all they'll end up with higher blood pressure and nothing of benefit.

 

[justApilot]

Paco...
Yes infact Eagle does exist as a result of scope...I believe it was the '87 contract.

 

[Intruder One]

I'm going to have to agree with the AA guys on this one.TWA was a unusual case but just because you are bought should not make you a yr.1 employee.APA must be crap even ALPA does not do this.Us Air & Piedmont,Western & Delta and others,they lost some things but they didn't go to bottom.Lets say JB gets bought by Southwest(and I'm no fan of JB) but they shouldn't go to bottom.I'm sure these post would be alot different if it was someone else.Although it could work out in managements favor,just buy another company and make everyone a new hire.It would sure save on payroll.

 

[Cleared Direct]

Hey Pal! What d'ya mean it can't get any worse, Pal. Did you happen to notice that most of the AA pilots had furlough protections until about 3 weeks ago. There are close to 400 potential flowbacks to Eagle if the previous permutation of Supp W/Letter 3 is enforced and there would be no growth at eagle due to the ASM cap. Executive gets sold to free up some ASMs and new RJ's go to American Connection.

Do you really think that AMR would honor your no furlough clause because it's in writing. Or would they do what they have to do right now and deal with an arbitrator's decision in three years.

So don't try to scare AA pilots, Pal.

80drvr,

You obviously are clueless about APA's situation. APA has already ratified the TA. It is not a choice between the TA or Supplement w/Letter 3. The TA is now ratified contractual language and APA only has the ability to change one item in exchange for something of equal value. Guess what? Your clip only has one bullet left. There is no going back to the ASM cap unless you want to exchange it for something of equal value. Same thing for the changes in scope.

Under pressure you shot your load for protection of your A and B fund. You really think that Darrah is going to ask the rank and file at APA to give up even more to secure jobs at Eagle for their junior pilots? Get real! APA eats there young. They are the inventors of B scale. It is all about securing retirement for the pilots, not securing a job for their young.

If APA wants to change their contractual language and flow back 400-500 furloughs into EMJ Captain positions at Eagle, I encourage it. This will still be better for Eagle pilots than to magically give all AA furloughs (2400 or more pilots) recall rights to the CJ Captain positions at Eagle. The company does not want to spend another dime on this mess either. APA's estimate for the training costs would be only 10 million. The company will have a very different number for the actual domino training costs at Eagle.

There will be no 3 year arbitration results with Supp W/ Letter 3. It has it's own mandated expedited arbitration process.

The Allied Pinheads Association stepped on their d*cks again on this one.

 

[justApilot]

Intruder....
Any comments on the following Delta and PanAm, Northwest and Republic, Southwest and Morris?

 

[80drvr]

80drvr,

You obviously are clueless about APA's situation. APA has already ratified the TA. It is not a choice between the TA or Supplement w/Letter 3. The TA is now ratified contractual language and APA only has the ability to change one item in exchange for something of equal value. Guess what? Your clip only has one bullet left. There is no going back to the ASM cap unless you want to exchange it for something of equal value. Same thing for the changes in scope.

Under pressure you shot your load for protection of your A and B fund. You really think that Darrah is going to ask the rank and file at APA to give up even more to secure jobs at Eagle for their junior pilots? Get real! APA eats there young. They are the inventors of B scale. It is all about securing retirement for the pilots, not securing a job for their young.

If APA wants to change their contractual language and flow back 400-500 furloughs into EMJ Captain positions at Eagle, I encourage it. This will still be better for Eagle pilots than to magically give all AA furloughs (2400 or more pilots) recall rights to the CJ Captain positions at Eagle. The company does not want to spend another dime on this mess either. APA's estimate for the training costs would be only 10 million. The company will have a very different number for the actual domino training costs at Eagle.

There will be no 3 year arbitration results with Supp W/ Letter 3. It has it's own mandated expedited arbitration process.

The Allied Pinheads Association stepped on their d*cks again on this one.

I am far from cluesless about the APA's situation and don't need an education from you explaining the history of this miserable contract. I doubt you'd like a history lesson from me on your 16yr jewel.

I rather doubt that scope and flowthrough would ever snap back to the verbage of the last contract; but, that seems to be the desire of several from the eagle side of the house.

Why do you think AMR didn't engage Eagle ALPA in negotiations ? I am genuinely curious. Especially since AMR was really dictating, not "negotiating" with it's unions.