American... Get that rig!

[HA25]

AA sure didn't help HA's future contract talks. DL currently has 3 day trips worth 15:45 (unless arrival morning of the third day between 12am to 2am local). Which way will your HA management lean? I can see why you're not happy.... A lot of your future 321Neo flights will probably be 2 leg three day trips to West Coast cities, and that wouldn't be great if they were worth 11-12 hours total.



Bye Bye---General Lee

right now the vast majority of our West Coast trips are 3 day... on the 330. The NEO should be more "productive" we hope.. time will tell, as they haven't announced how they plan to operate or base them.

Yes, AA did us no favor.. the pay was going to come (as you guys are showing).. it's the productivity that we are worried about.

 

[aa73]

truth is they could have held out for section 6... the DAL guys were already doing a lot of heavy lifting, as were we at HAL about to do.. (and as we did in 2010 when we set industry rates and retirement benefits)..

I have mixed feelings about the AA situation and while I understand the despair for the pay raise, truth is, we will never have a chance to get productivity back to where it was in the pre-9/11 contracts ever again if this becomes the new "industry standard"

HA25, General Lee, I have a feeling you and many of you on this board don't quite understand the ramifications involved had we voted no and chosen to "just wait for section 6."

Here would be the timeline for that:

- We vote No
- We immediately forfeit an industry leading pay rate
- We submit our entire contract to a cost neutral arbitration
- The arbitrator is Bloch, who historically rules in the company's favor
- We get a weighted average of delta/united pay in 2016, once again dependent and riding delta/united coat tails
- We once again stay well below the industry in pay (the weighted average would be far below the JCBA immediate industry leading pay rate)
- We start early openers in 2017
- The company chooses to "kick the can" for another 3-5 years
- All of this in the hopes that the industry is not in the toilet again with a recession
- Rinse and repeat.

Etc, etc.

I don't think you guys understand that we were not in section 6, and didn't have any kind of leverage or unity to engage with a no vote. The company would have proceeded on with their new arbitrated contract, and we would have floundered on with our Bk contract subjected to a cost neutral arbitrator.

THE WORK RULES WERE NOT IN PLACE. They were never there. We never had 5hr min calendar day...before bk, during, or after. It wasn't part of the JCBA and it DEFINITELY would not have been part of a cost neutral arbitration.

Would I like 5hr min calendar day? YES! Just how would you guys have suggested getting it from the company when it wasn't available through the JCBA or through cost neutral arbitration?

The only way we will get it, along with other work rule improvements, is:

- through side letters (like Delta did)
- through the next section 6 in 2019.

This JCBA was far from perfect. It fixed the pay issues and some work rules but not all of them.

Let's all remember please that the Delta and United post-Bk JCBAs were nothing to write home about and were quite inferior to ours today - and yet still passed by a landslide. Nobody gets their dream contract with their first post-bk contract. The fixes will come , just like they did with delta and united.

General Lee, your company (Delta) only just got 5:15 min calendar day last year through a side letter in which you traded HBT. In other words, as the company needed cooperation with the union, improvements that were not part of the original contract, were secured. We hope to be able to do the same.

I hope this clears it up.

73

 

[redflyer65]

Excellent analyst AA. I'm sad that you don't have better work rules and voting this down wouldn't have helped. It was clearly a rock and a hard place.

Take the rates now and work on the other items down the road. Completely agree.

 

[General Lee]

HA25, General Lee, I have a feeling you and many of you on this board don't quite understand the ramifications involved had we voted no and chosen to "just wait for section 6."

Here would be the timeline for that:

- We vote No
- We immediately forfeit an industry leading pay rate
- We submit our entire contract to a cost neutral arbitration
- The arbitrator is Bloch, who historically rules in the company's favor
- We get a weighted average of delta/united pay in 2016, once again dependent and riding delta/united coat tails
- We once again stay well below the industry in pay (the weighted average would be far below the JCBA immediate industry leading pay rate)
- We start early openers in 2017
- The company chooses to "kick the can" for another 3-5 years
- All of this in the hopes that the industry is not in the toilet again with a recession
- Rinse and repeat.

Etc, etc.

I don't think you guys understand that we were not in section 6, and didn't have any kind of leverage or unity to engage with a no vote. The company would have proceeded on with their new arbitrated contract, and we would have floundered on with our Bk contract subjected to a cost neutral arbitrator.

THE WORK RULES WERE NOT IN PLACE. They were never there. We never had 5hr min calendar day...before bk, during, or after. It wasn't part of the JCBA and it DEFINITELY would not have been part of a cost neutral arbitration.

Would I like 5hr min calendar day? YES! Just how would you guys have suggested getting it from the company when it wasn't available through the JCBA or through cost neutral arbitration?

The only way we will get it, along with other work rule improvements, is:

- through side letters (like Delta did)
- through the next section 6 in 2019.

This JCBA was far from perfect. It fixed the pay issues and some work rules but not all of them.

Let's all remember please that the Delta and United post-Bk JCBAs were nothing to write home about and were quite inferior to ours today - and yet still passed by a landslide. Nobody gets their dream contract with their first post-bk contract. The fixes will come , just like they did with delta and united.

General Lee, your company (Delta) only just got 5:15 min calendar day last year through a side letter in which you traded HBT. In other words, as the company needed cooperation with the union, improvements that were not part of the original contract, were secured. We hope to be able to do the same.

I hope this clears it up.

73

I hear you, but the result overall still sux. Better pay, but the rest didn't help anyone else. Hopefully it will be changed in future TAs.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Angus Khan]

Nice job aa73 intelligently summing up our position. And exactly why I voted 'yes'.

 

[808pilot]

HA25... i heard from one of our capts thats tied into the union that said, in so many words.... that because HA doesn't operate like delta/unted/aa..etc therefore we won't even be asking to try and get the same rates... i really hope this is BS but as you know there has been a lot of upheaveal going down within the union so who knows... i'm cautiously optimistic...

 

[HA25]

Yeah. The "we've always done it this way" mentality gets sorta old 808... I have faith in this MEC tho to get us what we are worth.

 

[get2flyin]

I think a fact check is on order... there is so much misinformation on this board.

........................

Good luck to you all who have contract negotiations coming up. At the very least we've given you a pay rate to shoot for.

73

Nailed it. Best web board post I've read in a long time.

 

[Jim]

HA25... i heard from one of our capts thats tied into the union that said, in so many words.... that because HA doesn't operate like delta/unted/aa..etc therefore we won't even be asking to try and get the same rates... i really hope this is BS but as you know there has been a lot of upheaveal going down within the union so who knows... i'm cautiously optimistic...

That is the reason we just changed the union leadership. That is NOT the opinion of the new MEC or the vast majority of the pilots.

Plus we didn't accept that attitude for the current contract so why would we now?

 

[fly4surf]

If anything the pay should be double due to the cost of living.

And min days off increased due to the nice weather!

Agree there is no reason to ask for, or get, anything less than industry standard on many fronts. Anything but is a no vote.