American... Get that rig!

[HowardBorden]

There are plenty of people that are clueless about the SW pay system.

I just finished flying around 85 hours of flight time for Jan, and will be paid 126 trips for pay. Picked up a few trips, some deadheading in there, and that awesome rig of 6.5 per day showed up a few times. No premium and I'll make the equivalent of a 12 year Delta widebody FO. Around 180/hr per hour flown.

Substandard? Hardly. Now I'm all for increasing the retirement component and increasing the pay with at least min COLA raises, but to throw the whole structure under the bus just because you're ex-Tranny is ridiculous.

Parking? Yea that's a huge benefit. Reserve? Maybe we could get airport standby like AirTran had. Give me a break.

Nobody comes close on..

1. Rig per day
2. Codeshare, scope
3. Pay structure in general

I agree with most of what you are saying about most being clueless about the SWA pay system. But to be fair, 126TFP equates to a more understandable 110 units of pay converted to hourly.

I love the trip for pay system. SWA has a huge amount of soft pay involved with it. The rigs are very beneficial and don't even get me started on the value of scope and codeshare, it is incalculable.

 

[LearLove]

American pilots accepted 7 additional concessions to get an early and increase in pay and also pushed out Section 6 till 2020. The money was the bribe and the pilots accepted it, this is a 9/11 contract till 2020, do not polish this turd into something it is not...no profit sharing also.

So now you are complaining? Aren't you based in PHX? Yeah all those LAA pilots based in PHX. Well at least you're not blaming it on USAPA, yet. Let me guess, it's everyone else's fault except AWA guys.

% Yes
STL 91.91%
PHX 91.17%
ORD 82.75%
SFO 81.82%
BOS 74.77%
LAX 73.62%
DFW 66.32%
CLT 64.97%
DCA 64.54%
LGA 54.71%
PHL 51.33%
MIA 45.38%

seems only Miami has balls.

 

[Guppiedriver]

So now you are complaining? Aren't you based in PHX? Yeah all those LAA pilots based in PHX. Well at least you're not blaming it on USAPA, yet. Let me guess, it's everyone else's fault except AWA guys.

% Yes
STL 91.91%
PHX 91.17%
ORD 82.75%
SFO 81.82%
BOS 74.77%
LAX 73.62%
DFW 66.32%
CLT 64.97%
DCA 64.54%
LGA 54.71%
PHL 51.33%
MIA 45.38%

seems only Miami has balls.

Balls? You guys haven't learned s hit in the last 9 years, have you?

 

[redflyer65]

I agree with most of what you are saying about most being clueless about the SWA pay system. But to be fair, 126TFP equates to a more understandable 110 units of pay converted to hourly.

I love the trip for pay system. SWA has a huge amount of soft pay involved with it. The rigs are very beneficial and don't even get me started on the value of scope and codeshare, it is incalculable.

I get what your saying Howard, but I was doing more of an actual conversion...not the hypothetical 1.15 conversion. It looks like this...

126 trips X 125/trip = $15750 for the month. I flew 85 actual hours, so..

$15,750 divided by 85 = an equivalent $185/per hour worked.

I guess a big reason for those numbers are that our FO payrates are tied to the CA rate at 70%. I don't know of any other major that has it set up this way. Maybe to help with the $40/month parking?

 

[HA25]

after reading thru this, it's just depressing..

Management at AA squeezed out a ton of productivity from the pilots (looks like the AWA guys jumped on it!).. and gave them an "hourly" raise that lines up with DAL.. Had they just waited for a section six, they'd have done a lot better for themselves. The problem is not just how much you get paid, but HOW you clock those hours?? I can't believe this crap.

I sure hope this doesn't poison our negotiations at HAL... thanks AA! (not)

 

[LearLove]

HA25 gets it. Years ago as a 135 pilot we dreamed of 80 hours wide body pay in 9 days/ month. Then it became more like 12 days per month. Finally it looked like most of us would have to settle for 80 hours narrow body in 14 days per month. Now I think the new reality for us junior line holders is 75 to 80 hours of pay in 16 days per month.

 

[redflyer65]

after reading thru this, it's just depressing..

Management at AA squeezed out a ton of productivity from the pilots (looks like the AWA guys jumped on it!).. and gave them an "hourly" raise that lines up with DAL.. Had they just waited for a section six, they'd have done a lot better for themselves. The problem is not just how much you get paid, but HOW you clock those hours?? I can't believe this crap.

I sure hope this doesn't poison our negotiations at HAL... thanks AA! (not)

I thought if they turned this down, they had already agreed to arbitration on the combined contract.

 

[Carl S.]

Lear, I was one of the few (115) PHX guys who was totally against extending this turd till 2020 and am being grilled for it. Tell your USAPA buddies to give us our merger fund back, it will make NIC II that much easier for you to swallow....

 

[HA25]

This is a tragedy. The one F'n time in the past 15 years the industry is making record profits and then this.

Wow.

 

[dollacrackho]

American is mostly composed of old guys who are about to retire. Did anyone really think this was going to get rejected? And what up phoenix? Thought you guys were badasses. You practically gang raped Doug for the money.

 

[Guppiedriver]

I thought if they turned this down, they had already agreed to arbitration on the combined contract.

Red, you have it right. All of these knuckheads claiming otherwise are full of s hit.

 

[Hawaiian 5-0]

Never mind.

 

[Metrojet]

American pilots accepted 7 additional concessions to get an early and increase in pay and also pushed out Section 6 till 2020. The money was the bribe and the pilots accepted it, this is a 9/11 contract till 2020, do not polish this turd into something it is not...no profit sharing also.

And PHX voted yes 91%

 

[aa73]

after reading thru this, it's just depressing..

Management at AA squeezed out a ton of productivity from the pilots (looks like the AWA guys jumped on it!).. and gave them an "hourly" raise that lines up with DAL.. Had they just waited for a section six, they'd have done a lot better for themselves. The problem is not just how much you get paid, but HOW you clock those hours?? I can't believe this crap.

I sure hope this doesn't poison our negotiations at HAL... thanks AA! (not)

I think a fact check is on order... there is so much misinformation on this board.

Fact: Our work rules were already below delta/united with the MTA we signed two years ago. They were not part of the JCBA offer and there was no improvement with a no vote either.

Fact: the JCBA pay rates currently put us at 7% above delta. No, I'm not counting profit sharing. Would I like it? Definitely - but only in a solid profitable economy. Ditch it when it goes south, please.

Fact: had we voted no, we would have subjected our ENTIRE GREEN BOOK (contract) to cost neutral arbitration. The arbitrator was Bloch. Need I say more?

Fact: had we voted no, we would have remained at our bk MTA pay rates until next year, then gotten a weighted average of whatever delta and united were making at that point. In other words, we'd be depending - once again! - on delta and united raising the bar.

Are you all familiar with just how quickly this industry can fall into the toilet? Waiting a year, only to remain below delta and united pay, while giving up an instant 23% raise that puts us above everybody and re establishes pattern bargaining, was not a good idea to me.

We voted yes, got industry leading pay rates, and got some contract fixes in exchange for some contract gives. Sounds exactly like every successful section 6 negotiation in the past.

Am I pissed we didn't get 5hr min calendar day and profit sharing? Yes! But that wasn't offered in the JCBA and we weren't going to get it by voting no, either.

Let's remember these points, please:

- Delta and united both eagerly passed their first post-bk contracts by a landslide: contracts that were well inferior to the one we just passed.

- given the point above, how could one deny that delta and united wouldn't have passed this current offer fresh out of bk by a landslide as well?

Guys, this was a choice between crappy and crappier. I tried to vote wisely while at the same time upping the pay bar for delta and united. The work rules were not part of the equation: that was due to the box APA cornered us into by signing the MTA and giving Parker the worst case scenario of cost neutral arbitration backstop. Voting No would have submitted our green book to a company-friendly arbitrator, while giving the company an immediate 1.6B windfall while keeping us well below the industry for at least another year or two - probably just in time for the next recession to hit. How do section 6 negotiations work during recessions?

I'm convinced we did the right thing.

Now that the pay is fixed - one less Damocles sword dangling over our head - we have opportunities to improve the work rules through side letters and such, as merger-related implementations come up and the company will need our cooperation. As I recall, delta did exactly that: their 5:15 min calendar day came as a result of a side letter they did with the company on exchange for HBT.

Good luck to you all who have contract negotiations coming up. At the very least we've given you a pay rate to shoot for.

73

 

[SpauldingSmails]

Where's Pave Driver?

 

[Guppiedriver]

I think a fact check is on order... there is so much misinformation on this board.

Fact: Our work rules were already below delta/united with the MTA we signed two years ago. They were not part of the JCBA offer and there was no improvement with a no vote either.

Fact: the JCBA pay rates currently put us at 7% above delta. No, I'm not counting profit sharing. Would I like it? Definitely - but only in a solid profitable economy. Ditch it when it goes south, please.

Fact: had we voted no, we would have subjected our ENTIRE GREEN BOOK (contract) to cost neutral arbitration. The arbitrator was Bloch. Need I say more?

Fact: had we voted no, we would have remained at our bk MTA pay rates until next year, then gotten a weighted average of whatever delta and united were making at that point. In other words, we'd be depending - once again! - on delta and united raising the bar.

Are you all familiar with just how quickly this industry can fall into the toilet? Waiting a year, only to remain below delta and united pay, while giving up an instant 23% raise that puts us above everybody and re establishes pattern bargaining, was not a good idea to me.

We voted yes, got industry leading pay rates, and got some contract fixes in exchange for some contract gives. Sounds exactly like every successful section 6 negotiation in the past.

Am I pissed we didn't get 5hr min calendar day and profit sharing? Yes! But that wasn't offered in the JCBA and we weren't going to get it by voting no, either.

Let's remember these points, please:

- Delta and united both eagerly passed their first post-bk contracts by a landslide: contracts that were well inferior to the one we just passed.

- given the point above, how could one deny that delta and united wouldn't have passed this current offer fresh out of bk by a landslide as well?

Guys, this was a choice between crappy and crappier. I tried to vote wisely while at the same time upping the pay bar for delta and united. The work rules were not part of the equation: that was due to the box APA cornered us into by signing the MTA and giving Parker the worst case scenario of cost neutral arbitration backstop. Voting No would have submitted our green book to a company-friendly arbitrator, while giving the company an immediate 1.6B windfall while keeping us well below the industry for at least another year or two - probably just in time for the next recession to hit. How do section 6 negotiations work during recessions?

I'm convinced we did the right thing.

Now that the pay is fixed - one less Damocles sword dangling over our head - we have opportunities to improve the work rules through side letters and such, as merger-related implementations come up and the company will need our cooperation. As I recall, delta did exactly that: their 5:15 min calendar day came as a result of a side letter they did with the company on exchange for HBT.

Good luck to you all who have contract negotiations coming up. At the very least we've given you a pay rate to shoot for.

73

Well said.

 

[Azul]

A pay rate to shoot for! Dumbest thing i have heard on this thread. You cant cherry pick things to negotiate. Imagine the back and forth.. Delta union, we want aa pay rates. Delta management well ok, but then u get their profit sharing and work rules. Poof, were hosed! Never ever did i think it would be the pilots at aa that would hose the industry. And then to defend themselves is just abhorrent. Unbelievable!!! At least have the balls to say, yeah we wanted the money, to hell with everything and everybody else. That I could at least respect.

 

[ricj41]

Azulejo, you obviously don't understand the constraints the AA pilots were negotiating under. Work rules were never going to be part of the equation. Read aa73's post again.

 

[HA25]

Azulejo, you obviously don't understand the constraints the AA pilots were negotiating under. Work rules were never going to be part of the equation. Read aa73's post again.

truth is they could have held out for section 6... the DAL guys were already doing a lot of heavy lifting, as were we at HAL about to do.. (and as we did in 2010 when we set industry rates and retirement benefits)..

I have mixed feelings about the AA situation and while I understand the despair for the pay raise, truth is, we will never have a chance to get productivity back to where it was in the pre-9/11 contracts ever again if this becomes the new "industry standard"

 

[General Lee]

truth is they could have held out for section 6... the DAL guys were already doing a lot of heavy lifting, as were we at HAL about to do.. (and as we did in 2010 when we set industry rates and retirement benefits)..

I have mixed feelings about the AA situation and while I understand the despair for the pay raise, truth is, we will never have a chance to get productivity back to where it was in the pre-9/11 contracts ever again if this becomes the new "industry standard"

AA sure didn't help HA's future contract talks. DL currently has 3 day trips worth 15:45 (unless arrival morning of the third day between 12am to 2am local). Which way will your HA management lean? I can see why you're not happy.... A lot of your future 321Neo flights will probably be 2 leg three day trips to West Coast cities, and that wouldn't be great if they were worth 11-12 hours total.



Bye Bye---General Lee