America West pilots to the pokey

[Clyde]

Throw Away the Key

I'm going to throw in my $0.02.

Having been hit by a drunk-driver years ago, I have very little tolerance for anyone who drinks and drives. I have even less for those who drink and fly.

These two guys didn't show up with a slight buzz or a little alcohol on their breath. They showed up for work STONE-DRUNK!! At the very least, they stripped themselves of the title of professional pilots with that little stunt.

These are literally two bad apples who make the rest of us look bad, not to mention endangering the life of the flying public. When things like this happen, they need to be made examples of.

Some may be quick to say that an airplane such as the Airbus can fly itself. Well, for those who agree with that logic, would you honestly put your spouse and children on a flight such as this ?

We live by rules and professional standards in this industry. The difference between us and many other professions is that we don't always go home at the end of the day if we make a mistake. They intentionally disregarded an FAR and acted in a very unprofessional manner when they made the decision to board the aircraft instead of calling in sick and sobering up.

Jail time, loss of income, serious disruptions in their lives. Those are consequences. Since they didn't think of them before they made the decision to show up drunk, they can spend a few years behind bars thinking about it now.

Congratulations to all of those at America West who collectively moved up two seniority numbers.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Careful Clyde...we wouldn't want you to fall off your high horse.

Last I checked airplanes are flown by human beings and human beings do stupid things EVERY DAY! But I'm sure you (and the rest of the sanctimonious flightinfo crew) have never done anything that violated the rules.

Just another case of a screener with opportunity and an axe to grind, and a judge that wants to be king.

The sentences are too harsh.

And yet Michael Jackson walks free. (props to rumpus and AAslag)

 

[Clyde]

Careful Clyde...we wouldn't want you to fall off your high horse.

Last I checked airplanes are flown by human beings and human beings do stupid things EVERY DAY! But I'm sure you (and the rest of the sanctimonious flightinfo crew) have never done anything that violated the rules.

Just another case of a screener with opportunity and an axe to grind, and a judge that wants to be king.

The sentences are too harsh.

And yet Michael Jackson walks free. (props to rumpus and AAslag)

"But I'm sure you (and the rest of the sanctimonious flightinfo crew) have never done anything that violated the rules."
I am a human and I am not immune to making mistakes. However, I am immune to showing up for work intoxicated.

These guys didn't bust an altitude or make a nav error. They made a decision to get drunk AND show up for work intoxicated. Period. Making a decision to drink and fly (especially as a paid-professional) is not just a "mistake" that pilots make on the job. It was a concious decision to jeapordize the lives of themselves, their crew, their passengers, and potentially the lives of passengers in other aircraft.

What if they would have crossed an active runway without a clearance and caused a fiery collision because they were too drunk to figure out what they were supposed to do? Would their decision to show up drunk still be looked at as just a "mistake"? Do you think the victims and families of the victims would feel the same?

A mistake is when you inadvertantly climb above your assigned altitude by 300 feet. Reporting for duty in uniform AND drunk is just stupid. No sympathy here, they are getting what they deserve. I hope this sobers them up.


"Last I checked airplanes are flown by human beings and human beings do stupid things EVERY DAY!"
You are correct, airplanes are flown by humans and humans do stupid things. But, what seperates us as professionals from non-professinals is our ability to exercise good judgement and try to minimize our risks. These two guys lacked that judgement and thus maximized their risks.

 

[semperfido]

if the capt cloyd is an alcoholic then he has a serious disease and probably has lost control over his ability to exercise his free will to not drink. he probably needs help bigtime. the FO may or may not be in the same boat.

they just threw the book at him to make an example in an effort to keep the rest of us on the staight and narrow. it probably won't prevent the ones they should be concerned about from over-indulging.

 

[Clyde]

if the capt cloyd is an alcoholic then he has a serious disease and probably has lost control over his ability to exercise his free will to not drink. he probably needs help bigtime. the FO may or may not be in the same boat.

they just threw the book at him to make an example in an effort to keep the rest of us on the staight and narrow. it probably won't prevent the ones they should be concerned about from over-indulging.

If a person steps forward admitting they have a problem and want help to get better, I'm for offering that person a second chance after they sober up.

If Capt. Cloyd is indeed an alcoholic, he still made a decision to show up for work intoxicated, and with that decision come some consequences that he (and the f/o for that matter) have to live with.

If a person has lost his/her ability to exercise free will to not drink, that person definitely needs a lot of help in a hurry. But, that person should still realize that if they are that far off the deep end, than they have no business flying ANY airplane until they get help and are healed.

Throwing the book at them may or may not discourage others from over-indulging, hopefully it will act as a deterent. But, these guys blatantly did a very stupid thing and now they have to pay for that mistake.

 

[semperfido]

If a person steps forward admitting they have a problem and want help to get better, I'm for offering that person a second chance after they sober up.

If Capt. Cloyd is indeed an alcoholic, he still made a decision to show up for work intoxicated, and with that decision come some consequences that he (and the f/o for that matter) have to live with.

If a person has lost his/her ability to exercise free will to not drink, that person definitely needs a lot of help in a hurry. But, that person should still realize that if they are that far off the deep end, than they have no business flying ANY airplane until they get help and are healed.

Throwing the book at them may or may not discourage others from over-indulging, hopefully it will act as a deterent. But, these guys blatantly did a very stupid thing and now they have to pay for that mistake.

unfortunately, they are usually in denial. it usually takes an intervention to get them the help. you are correct in that they have no business driving airplanes, cars, busses, trains etc.

 

[Clyde]

unfortunately, they are usually in denial. it usually takes an intervention to get them the help. you are correct in that they have no business driving airplanes, cars, busses, trains etc.

Sadly, that is very true. Sometimes we have to take it upon ourselves to offer to help them out. Not with a phone call to the CP, but rather to offer accountability to them and support them in going in for help.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

Jesus Christ Clyde, I hope you're not an examiner at your airline.

Talk about your God complex. I guess you're just like most pilots though, blinded by some fantasy that what we do is anything more than a job.

Da king of self-righteousness and self-importance is in da house...really man, get over yourself.

 

[crashpad]

I agree with Clyde 100%!

 

[Clyde]

Jesus Christ Clyde, I hope you're not an examiner at your airline.

Talk about your God complex. I guess you're just like most pilots though, blinded by some fantasy that what we do is anything more than a job.

Da king of self-righteousness and self-importance is in da house...really man, get over yourself.

Purple,

God complex? Hardly, you're responding as if you think I've been advocating the death penalty for an altitude bust.

Very simply put: I have ZERO tolerance for anyone who shows up intoxicated with the intention of operating an aircraft.

I have nothing but sympathy and support for anyone who is willing to come forward, admit they have a problem, and seek help. To them, I'm all for offering them a second chance.

Those guys in MIA had a choice to make. They could have called in sick or they could have taken the flight. They made the decision to go to work. Now, they are simply paying for a mistake that could have very easily have been avoided.

"I guess you're just like most pilots though, blinded by some fantasy that what we do is anything more than a job."

Yeah, that's exactly it.

"Da king of self-righteousness and self-importance is in da house...really man, get over yourself."
The day a drunk-driver totals your car and sends you to the ER in the middle of the afternoon, let me know if your attitude changes a little bit.

 

[ultrarunner]

The point was he had 2 seperate trials under 2 different portions of the legal system.

Yep, the criminal system and the civil system. We're subject to both, and can take advantage of both.

I have no problem with that.

 

[RDG]

How's the view from up there Clyde? You sanctimonious pri*ks all do the exact same thing. Try and apply rational responses to guys who's brains do not operate on a rational level, due to alcoholism, genetics, whatever.

When you send these guys to jail after their lives are already destroyed, then its not just them and their families who pay the price for their mistakes, now we all do. Because now we all have to pay to house and feed them for the next few years. Community service would have been fine, but jail is a stupid, knee jerk reaction from a completely intolerant society. God help you if you ever step out of line. Somewhere out there, there is an unforgiving sactimonious pri*k just like you waiting to throw away the key.

And yes, some drunk jacka$$ broke my back in six places when I was in high school. (car crash). I still don't want every drunk thrown in the pokey. Especially these two, who have already lost everything. Its overkill.

 

[Eagleflip]

I must agree with Clyde here, gents. Yes, these two men have lost (almost) everything, but the basics still apply nevertheless. You have to pay the price for your actions. If either or both of them are alcoholics, didn't they make similar choices many times before during a layover? Yet they chose to attempt to fly while legally intoxicated They had a choice

No one is acting like God here. They erred and now they must pay the price for their actions. The judge sentenced them according to his take on it. Too harsh? Since I don't know the sentencing guidelines in Florida, I simply can't say with conviction (pardon the pun) what the right answer is.

No one is disputing that some others should have gone to jail for as long or longer for their particular crime; this thread isn't about that problem. If you want to rant about the inherent unfairness in the judicial system, start a thread on that topic.

Don't all jail times send a message, good or bad, to the perspective audience? No matter what your answer is to that question, the simple truth is that these pilots acted irresponsibly and endangered many, many people's lives. They helped create an atmosphere of jaundice toward the pilot population. They sullied the name of a proud airline.

They deserved this sentence, pure and simple.

 

[Ty Webb]

No one is acting like God here. They erred and now they must pay the price for their actions. The judge sentenced them according to his take on it. Too harsh? Since I don't know the sentencing guidelines in Florida, I simply can't say with conviction (pardon the pun) what the right answer is.

I agree . . . . that you guys are a bunch of sanctimonious windbags.

Federal law governs aviation matters. They were punished . . . .they had their certificates revoked, and they lost their jobs. Florida, however, decides that this is easy publicity, and wants to try them on state charges, too. What about the constitutional protection from "double jeopardy"? Even a high-school student could tell you that this wouldn;t hold up on appeal (well, at least a high-school student educated outside of a Florida public school system).

It would be laughable, if it wasn;t so sad. Florida, the state where foster children are murdered while in state custody, the state where 100 year-old drivers can renew their licenses by mail, the state where the term "hanging chad" was coined . . . . yes, Florida found an opportunity to villainize these guys in the short term, until it gets overturned on appeal. Meanwhile, these guys, whose careers are finished, are out an additional $100,000. apiece fighting needless prosecution.

How many people have committed murder and been sentenced to less? How many people have committed rape and been sentenced to less? Give me a break. . . . and you sacntimonious clowns need to get over yourselves. It's guys like you that end up with f'ed up kids who realize the ridiculousness and the hypocisy of the standards you hold others to.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I agree . . . . that you guys are a bunch of sanctimonious windbags.

Give me a break. . . . and you sacntimonious clowns need to get over yourselves. It's guys like you that end up with f'ed up kids who realize the ridiculousness and the hypocisy of the standards you hold others to.

Put the bottle down Ty! Are you this irrational in the jet too?

BBB

 

[Yank McCobb]

I agree . . . . that you guys are a bunch of sanctimonious windbags.

Federal law governs aviation matters. They were punished . . . .they had their certificates revoked, and they lost their jobs. Florida, however, decides that this is easy publicity, and wants to try them on state charges, too. What about the constitutional protection from "double jeopardy"? Even a high-school student could tell you that this wouldn;t hold up on appeal (well, at least a high-school student educated outside of a Florida public school system).

It would be laughable, if it wasn;t so sad. Florida, the state where foster children are murdered while in state custody, the state where 100 year-old drivers can renew their licenses by mail, the state where the term "hanging chad" was coined . . . . yes, Florida found an opportunity to villainize these guys in the short term, until it gets overturned on appeal. Meanwhile, these guys, whose careers are finished, are out an additional $100,000. apiece fighting needless prosecution.

How many people have committed murder and been sentenced to less? How many people have committed rape and been sentenced to less? Give me a break. . . . and you sacntimonious clowns need to get over yourselves. It's guys like you that end up with f'ed up kids who realize the ridiculousness and the hypocisy of the standards you hold others to.

While your grandstanding and railing about the State of Florida sound really cool and all...what you are saying is just wrong. And by wrong, I mean incorrect.

Read (even a little bit) about the law and the definition of "double jeopardy" (which I admit I didn't do at first, but have recently done) and you will see how this does not even approach "double jeopardy" so that Constitutional protection simply does not apply in this case. If they appeal based on this defense, they will stand zero chance.

This gross error makes the rest of your post suspect, at best...regardless of it's merit.

 

[olympus593]

If anybody ever goes below DH and crash, I'll be on the jury to sentence you to 100 lifes sentence, since you decided to go below DH.
That it I'm moving to saoudi arabia....

 

[Clyde]

How's the view from up there Clyde? You sanctimonious pri*ks all do the exact same thing. Try and apply rational responses to guys who's brains do not operate on a rational level, due to alcoholism, genetics, whatever.

When you send these guys to jail after their lives are already destroyed, then its not just them and their families who pay the price for their mistakes, now we all do. Because now we all have to pay to house and feed them for the next few years. Community service would have been fine, but jail is a stupid, knee jerk reaction from a completely intolerant society. God help you if you ever step out of line. Somewhere out there, there is an unforgiving sactimonious pri*k just like you waiting to throw away the key.

And yes, some drunk jacka$$ broke my back in six places when I was in high school. (car crash). I still don't want every drunk thrown in the pokey. Especially these two, who have already lost everything. Its overkill.

Since you seemed to have missed the obvious, these guys are not in jail because they missed a crossing restriction or any other mistake that a human being is capable of doing while piloting an aircraft.

These two gentleman INTENTIONALLY chose to show up for duty INTOXICATED. That isn't your average line pilot mistake, and it certainly IS NOT in the job description of a professional.

You also seemed to have missed my post about giving people a second chance if they step forward and get help. These guys did not have to show up for this flight. They could have very easily have called in sick and blamed it on food poisoning or something.

Instead, they intenionally decided to risk the lives of everybody on that aircraft and potentially more lives by showing up in the condition that they did. That's criminal negligence. They made a choice and now they are going to have to deal with the consequences.

You think jail time is too harsh? Well, where do we draw the line?? Do we wait until the first fatal airliner crash because of alcohol? How about two? Ten maybe?


I think it's time for YOU to come down from YOUR high horse.

 

[Ty Webb]

Put the bottle down Ty! Are you this irrational in the jet too?

BBB

What do you mean "irrational"? What those two buffoons did was "irrational", and what the state of FL did was equally "irrational". I just call 'em like I see 'em.

And if you have to ask if I "fly like I post", then you really need to log off and get a real life, Chief.

 

[olympus593]

I've seen plenty of professional pilot not doing Checklist, What should we do to them??? About the AA crew who flew in a storm in Lit (maybe a little tired 15H on duty ) Who get the Gas Chamber? them??? The FAA 15H duty anyone??? The dispatcher??? He dispatch them!!!

5 year in jail is just nuts!!!