America West pilots to the pokey

[PBRstreetgang]

Also, isn't anyone bothered that the pilots were convicted in State court for a Federal offense?

Hey,
Not in the least, they were convicted of DUI (of a motor vehicle) a state offense, convicted in a state court, and will do time in a state prison, with a roomate named Bubba, who will want to dance nightly. The federal charges(which carry no jail time) will allow the FAA to revoke any and all certificates. You would think after all the previous alcohol/pilot exposures these guys would have gotten the message before this happened. Previous alcohol issues, alcoholisim, these should have been taken care of thru the EAP programs. Sympathy? NONE!
PBR

 

[OPECJet]

My problem is not with these guys getting a spanking for trying to fly after a hard night of partying. It is the precedent that has been set for a state to prosecute someone for breaking the rules in a federally regulated activity. I was not aware Florida had laws on the books for such occurrences. Thanks for posting it. I find it disturbing they exist.

Two sets of laws governing what happens in an airplane, and how they are punished is dangerous for all of us.

Nope, didn't vote for GW. Don't support these guys actions either.

 

[mystere]

I'm not defending what they did, they deserve some sort of jail/punishment.

BUT...They were willing to plead guilty in exchange for 14 months in prison. The prosecutor went along with the deal, but the judge rejected the agreement.

They were forced to court and their lawyers had to put on a defense. For the prosecutor to mock their defense after they were willing to plead guilty is pure grandstanding for the TV cameras.

The judge also lectured Cloyd as if he was a kid getting punished for stealing another kids lunch money. I expect more professionalism from a judge.

Also, isn't anyone bothered that the pilots were convicted in State court for a Federal offense?

I expect more professionalism from a licensed pilot....they got what they deserved.

 

[Focus]

Double Jeopardy? Geez, thats a stretch. An ATP, Commercial or any other aviation license is an earned privledge. We do not have a right to these licenses just as we dont have rights to our Motor Vehicle License. They are simply privledges issued by the respectable governing agency.

These licenses are privledges and as such may be revoked by the issuing agency when any standard is not upheld by the licensee.

So the Double Jeopardy argument is mute. Revocation of the licenses by the FAA is simply taking away their privledges.

The sentencing yesterday in Florida without question is severe. An extremely strong message has been sent to our community and we would be wise to take inventory of ourselves instead of attempting to justify why this should not have happend.

Anyhow, enough said....Im almost starting to sound like a lawyer. We have all worked hard to get to where we are. Dont throw it away for one lousy night of partying.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

This is not the case AT ALL. You are severely misinformed or just don't understand.

They were prosecuted, found guilty and sentenced for violating the STATE OF FLORIDA statute against operating a vehicle while impaired.

The dangerous precedent that has been set is that of double jeopardy. They had already been prosecuted by the federal government by having their certificates revoked. Now they are punished again by the State of Florida for the same occurance. But this is NOT a case of "a state government prosecuting for federal crimes". The state government prosecuted for violation of that state's laws. Check the docket and see what they were tried and found guilty of. It will not say a thing about "federal crimes".

Yank,
There are no jail penalties attached to the FARs, they were tried and convicted in a state court for violation of state laws. the FAR sanction of loss of certificates does not constitute "double jeopardy" which applies to trials with the possibility of jail time(loss of liberty, with due process). The loss of certificates is an administrative process which allows the FAA to revoke a privelege. On a side note remember if you wank a plane while taxiing too fast you can be cited for "unsafe speed" a prima facia speed law, basically if you had an incident it would be argued you could have avoided if if you were moving at a slower speed, this would come from the airport poilce dept. via a citation. Every civil airport is operated by a state or municipal agency, the FAA owns the airspace not the ground, "from the surface to...". What happens if you are violated of careless and reckless? loss of certificates, a privelege.
PBR

 

[Yank McCobb]

So the Double Jeopardy argument is mute.

Anyhow, enough said....Im almost starting to sound like a lawyer. .

Mute? Does that mean that the Double Jeopardy argument can not talk?

Sound like a lawyer? Not really. I think most lawyers would know the difference in "mute" and "moot".

 

[Focus]

Nice catch Yank, you got the message and thats whats important.

 

[Yank McCobb]

You are all correct about my poor choice of terms in "double jeopardy". I was more concerned about the precedent being set of using state laws to prosecute violations regarding the operation of aircraft. There could be a whole set of different worms released from numerous cans here.

 

[Yank McCobb]

Nice catch Yank, you got the message and thats whats important.

Yep.. just killing time my friend.

 

[Cosmo1999]

I dont see how anyone has sympathy for these guys. The blatantly violated state and fedral law. I mean come on just put down the damn glass of beer at a resonable hour(i.e at least 12 hours before show) and only have one or two. I can almost certainly guarantee you wont run into problems like this unless your F/A is really light haha. Operating an aircraft under the influence should carry stiff penalties.. These guys deserve jail time and to lose their tickets for life. Now the judge in the case most definately had it out for them from the start. You have many more lives in your hand operating an aircraft than you do operating a motor vehicle. BTW I think the DUI penalties should be much stiffer for anyone I.E no more probation or plea baragains. States claim they are getting tough on DUI but they really arent that tough at all.

 

[Iamavi8TOR]

man, alot of you guys/gals are pretty harsh in your judgement of these guys.

I agree that these guys should be severly punished; but jail time? Give me a f-in break. These guys do not deserve (IMO) to be taken away from their wives/families/friends and enrolled in a few years of anal cavity enlargement therapy (ACET). These guys were incredibly stupid. But that's just it; they made a huge mistake. They obviously had some pretty hardcore problems. Revoke all their certs, fire 'em, fine 'em, force AA enrollment on 'em, 10 years of community service, become big brother, adopt African AIDS baby, etc., etc. Dont send 'em to "pound-me-in-the-ass" prison. Some of you goody-good guys make me sick by actually saying that they deserve prison. You guys ever make a big mistake? When you did, did you hope that you would be severely punished? -or did you try to learn from it, vow to never do it again, and thank your lucky stars that you "got away with it" without hurting anyone.

Sleep deprivation studies show that (I forget the exact stats) being short a few hours sleep can have the same effect of being alcohol impaired.
Ever worked a full duty day on 3 hours sleep? Ever worked the same with no sleep? Ever had a late afternoon show for a 8,10,12 hour duty day(night) after having a full day of activities with only 4,5,6, hours of sleep? Ever worked with a mild cold? Ever worked right after having a bad, long, drawn-out argument with your spouse? Ever drank on an overnight? (let's say you have a 24 layover, get considerably drunk, cut it off at 12 hrs. Company rules covered, faa covered, legally sober.....are you gonna be 100% - Nope). Say you have an accident/incident following one of the above situations and the ensuing investigation's findings reveal you were negligent. Should you do jail time?

Bottom line: the punishment does not fit the crime.

 

[Booster]

Iamavi8TOR

We have ALL made mistakes. The two felons committed a crime. Captain got what the law provided the FO got .5 of the Capt.
OKAY with me.

 

[AA717driver]

The punishment did not fit the crime.

People convicted of DUI/OWI get probation ALL the time--especially for a first offense. Why the different treatment for aircraft? What is the penalty for operating a boat under the influence?

This is a political issue. The staute was written in a politically charged environment and the judge threw out the plea agreement because of politics. This whole "law and order" mania possessing elected officials today will eventually bite most of us in one way or another. These guys got bitten big time.

Just wait until municipalities begin filing criminal charges against pilots whose aircraft are involved in an accident. That's what happens in many countries around the world--you ding a wing, you go to jail until things are sorted out. Just wait, law and order fans, this is coming to an airport near you... TC

 

[hmmurdock]

Greetings...

My thoughts and prayers are also with the pilots as well as their families during these difficult times. Someone earlier mentioned that this sets a precedent for double jeopardy punishments in the future. It is important to remember when these pilots had their licenses revoked for violating federal law, the punishment was adminstrative in nature, not penal. This is why they could be prosecuted and punished under Florida state law, and why double jeopardy does not apply here. I personally think the punishment was too severe in this case. They won't be able to fly again, and I think this along with community service, perhaps AA, would be punishment enough.

Take care

 

[XR650R]

Anybody know where they are to be incarcerated? I flew with Chris in the commuters (Chicago Express) and he was a hell of a nice guy- Made a big mistake yes- but 2.5 years on jail??? GMAFB! I intend on sending him some care packages.
I would be curious to see this judge's record- I wonder how many crack heads or child molestors (this is Florida you know) are on probation or have lighter sentences because of this jerk.

 

[wmuflyguy]

So the Double Jeopardy argument is mute. Revocation of the licenses by the FAA is simply taking away their privledges.

I agree, but for different reasons.

The difference is that the taking of certificates is administrative law and that jail time is under criminal law.

You can't be crimnally prosecuted for the same offense two times. But you can be thrown in jail and then have a fine levied agaisnt you. Example: OJ Simpson, aquited of murder, but found responsible for the deaths and paid out the a$$.

 

[Booster]

AA717driver "The punishment did not fit the crime ... This is a political issue. The staute was written in a politically charged environment and the judge threw out the plea agreement because of politics. This whole "law and order" mania possessing elected officials today will eventually bite most of us in one way or another. These guys got bitten big time."
A political issue? This has been on the books for over 8 years probably more (I only researched that far back). I do not see the politics in this statute. There is however a full moom now so it is time for conspiracies.

Iamavi8TOR " I agree that these guys should be severly punished" Me to.
The passengers were not volunteers on the booze express. Had an incident or worse death occured while these pax were in the care of that flight crew would it have been OK for the families of the victims aka passengers to have been separated from their loved ones? No.

I do not believe the punishment was about a first time offense but the severity of the offense and its possible consequences based on impaired judgement.

The punishment line has been drawn, at least in Florida, we all KNOW the rules and it is within our power to obey them. We never know what the judge or jury will do in any given case the answer is that we should not be before them for the booze charge in the first place.

 

[AA717driver]

Booster--I stand corrected on the statute's implementation. I stand by my contention that the Judge acted abnormally harsh in tossing the plea agreement. I believe that WAS politically motivated.TC

 

[ultrarunner]

A line had to be drawn. Our profession does NOT need this kind of behavior and subsequent advertising. It brings us all down to a very low level.

If it takes these two AWA bozos getting butt fuccked for the next 5 years, well..so be it...that sends a good message, and I'll put the next hottie blond FA on the table that it's a LONG time before we get two more hammered pilots coming through security.

I'm ok with that.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Soooo... those of you who are comparing the punishment to DUI offenders:


Are you saying that driving a passenger car is the same thing as commanding a large jet where a hundred or more people are trusting you with their lives?

Personally, I think a LITTLE more of the profession than that.

They KNEW they were illegal. This is not a 'mistake'. What a load of BS.

This was a crime. A clear message must be sent.