America West pilots to the pokey

[CSY Mon]

Ever worked a full duty day on 3 hours sleep? Ever worked the same with no sleep? Ever had a late afternoon show for a 8,10,12 hour duty day(night) after having a full day of activities with only 4,5,6, hours of sleep?

Yup, my last flight was 14.5 hours of block time and 27.5 hours of duty...
(Single crew,,None of that Triple 7 stuff when they go back and sleep half the flight.)

From bed to bed was more like 40 hours.

All perfectly legal and performed with the blessings of the FAA, the company, the customer, God and Santa Claus.

As far as them jail-birds:
Tough luck I'd say
Most guys gets away with burning the candle in both ends, some don't.

Consider the odds and the gamble BEFORE ya go the bar the night before an early flight.

We have all made the choice once or twice.

OJ is playing golf in MIA these days, proof enough that the US legal system is screwed up beyond fixin'.

 

[ultrarunner]

This was a crime. A clear message must be sent.

Yep, and they just happen to be the unlucking ones. We will all think twice about our actions (I hope) while these guys are taking it up the pooper each night.

Bad deal for them....

that's the way it goes...

Someone's always got to be the poster child..and they are it in a big way...

Bubby will take care of them at the FL Pen!

 

[ultrarunner]

You can't be crimnally prosecuted for the same offense two times. But you can be thrown in jail and then have a fine levied agaisnt you. Example: OJ Simpson, aquited of murder, but found responsible for the deaths and paid out the a$$.

Dude, you're behind in your reading...

All of OJ's assests were in retirement/NFL pension accounts.....

those accounts cannot be garnished under Florida law...OJ's legal state of residence...

If you can site where he as paid, please post the link...

OJ is a bit smarter than you, I would suspect, and I would argue that if you called up the Goldmans tonight and asked them how much mula OJ has sent them, they would tell you ZIPPO!

Get with the program.

 

[miles otoole]

If it takes these two AWA bozos getting butt fuccked for the next 5 years, well..so be it...that sends a good message, and I'll put the next hottie blond FA on the table that it's a LONG time before we get two more hammered pilots coming through security.

I'm ok with that.

Won't matter. What have DUI laws done to reduce drinking and driving? Not a whole lot. Southbeach for 12 hours when you have a 250'er and 4 screaming kids to go back to? Most of us pilots are complete social misfits. Doesn't take much for a young, impressionable 23 Y.O. FA to look up to you. These guys are social misfits. It's slammer time.

 

[miles otoole]

Bubby will take care of them at the FL Pen!

Don't be surprised if 'Ol Bubby has a tattoo of the General Lee on his arm.

 

[Cactus73]

They got what they deserved!!!!

I mean the Captain screwed up a month ago and still didn't learn.

IF YOU CAN'T LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES YOU WILL BE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT THEM.

For all of you fools comparing this to a DUI it is totally different we are being paid for one and second we are being implicitly trusted to provide safe transportation. Once we break our customers trust through willful Criminal misconduct we deserved have the spitt brought up and fried up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let me guess all you fools supporting him voted for GW

First off, I never said they shouldn't have been punished. I feel jail time in a Federal jail would have been appropriate.

The fact is, they offered to serve 14 months. 14 months in a Florida prison isn't exactly fun and games. They lost their careers, they embarrassed our profession, they betrayed the trust to their passengers, and they caused great pain to their families and by most accounts they are financially ruined.

But at what point does the punishment become political and go too far?. One of the reasons we put people in jail is so they cannot repeat the crime. Besides punishment we also hope to rehabilitate them.

Cloyd and Hughes are not a danger to society. They will never have the opportunity to repeat their crime. So now it is a matter of punishment. There are people in prison that did far greater crimes serving less time than these two.

How many times do we here about child molesters getting out of jail in 2-3 years and repeating their crime on innocent victims?

The judge even used a private comment that Hughes made to his wife after the verdict against him when handing down the sentence. Pure grandstanding for the media.

BTW, I voted for Kerry.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Dude, you're behind in your reading...

All of OJ's assests were in retirement/NFL pension accounts.....

those accounts cannot be garnished under Florida law...OJ's legal state of residence...

If you can site where he as paid, please post the link...

OJ is a bit smarter than you, I would suspect, and I would argue that if you called up the Goldmans tonight and asked them how much mula OJ has sent them, they would tell you ZIPPO!

Get with the program.

Hey browneye (ultarunner),

You get with the program, the whole point of the example was that you can get seemingly get tried twice, once under administrative law and once under criminal law. I don't know and don't really care if OJ has payed or what the laws in Florida are, that wasn't the point of the post. The point was he had 2 seperate trials under 2 different portions of the legal system.

 

[RDG]

Just point me to the surgeon, ship captain, fireman, cop, bus driver, whatever, that showed up for work, intended to do his or her job but didn't, could have injured or killed bunches of people but didn't, and still got sent to the slammer for five years. The punishment does not fit the crime.

I have a great deal of sympathy for these guys, and their families. They could have done the exact same thing and if they were heart surgeons instead of pilots they would never get the same treatment.

These guys lost their jobs, at 47 and 44 years old have to learn some other way to make money, will probably end up bankrupt and in all likelihood, divorced over this. Do we really need to spend $200,000 a year (or whatever is costs per prisoner these days) to lock them up on top of all this when these guys will never pose more of a threat to anyone than the 10,000 other drunken buffoons out there on the road right now? I agree with the guys wife who said, "havent you people had enough?"

 

[rumpus]

And Michael Jackson walks a free man.

 

[A350]

All:

Does the punishment fit the crime? I think so.....

Those of you saying other people who do worse and serve less, that is the real travesty. I agree with the other poster, forgive me for forgetting who it was, but it should be a very long time before we get another drunk crew walking through the security line.

As far as their careers being ruined, they did that all by themselves. A case could be made that Cloyd shouldn't have been able to hold an ATP for allegedly beating his wife and driving drunk previously. Many in the past few years have lost everything in this business through absolutely NO fault of their own. These guys have noone to blame but themselves. Remember, everyone ties one on on a layover from time to time. If you say you don't you are lying......however, if you drink too much, then just call in sick.

Lastly, remember the NWA guys? That Captain finished his career as a Whale Captain after serving 18 months in prison and requalifying for all his licenses......then the NWA CEO, whose dad was a drunk, hired him back WITH seniority!

Never say they will never fly again. That precedent has been set.

A350

 

[aeronautic1]

"Ever drank on an overnight? (let's say you have a 24 layover, get considerably drunk, cut it off at 12 hrs. Company rules covered, faa covered, legally sober.....are you gonna be 100% - Nope). "

You obviously have missed the sentence in the regs that states the legal BAC limit for pilots is .04, not just 8 hours or company 12 hour rules. I can assure you that if your get "considerably drunk," cut off 12 hours before the trip; that you will blow over .04. I know, because I used to be a cop and breathalyzer operator.

These guys got what they deserved. If not for the actions of an asstute TSA screener, a major aviation accident was probaby averted. A break in the chain scenario.

Just what is the punishment for careless disregard for the safety of 125 passengers, a 40 million dollar airplane not to mention who they may have landed on top of if they crashed.

For all you alchies out there crying foul, let me quote a great line that fits: "Son your ego is writing checks that your body can't cash!"

 

[zonker]

.........

 

[DallasGatr]

I feel bad for my cousin, he was their Lawyer....

 

[trip]

Has anyone ever violated a FAR or flown below mins? Equally risky yet sober, you should go to jail and do time.

 

[Wingsweep]

Just like most other criminals

This is for all of you crying, bleeding heart apologists: Given the amount they drank and the cavalier attitude they displayed, does anyone honestly believe this was a one-time event?! I'm totally convinced they are like most a-h criminals; they simply offended enough times to finally get caught. Similar to purse snatchers, burglars, bank robbers, rapists, muggers, drug dealers, and drunk drivers--you can bet your bottom dollar that they get prosecuted for about one in ten crimes they commit. Of course, that's my humble opinion. And, yes, I consider them in the same class as all the rest. Cheers.

 

[CSY Mon]

Lastly, remember the NWA guys? That Captain finished his career as a Whale Captain after serving 18 months in prison and requalifying for all his licenses......then the NWA CEO, whose dad was a drunk, hired him back WITH seniority!

Yup, that guy had good friends in the union who would not give up the case.

These guys got what they deserved. If not for the actions of an asstute TSA screener, a major aviation accident was probaby averted. A break in the chain scenario.

A major aviation accident was probably averted?

Huh..?

Can't think of one pax airline crash caused by pilots being drunk or with a bad hang-over.

If there is any record of one, please let me know and I will stand corrected.

 

[AA717driver]

Soooo... those of you who are comparing the punishment to DUI offenders:


Are you saying that driving a passenger car is the same thing as commanding a large jet where a hundred or more people are trusting you with their lives?

Personally, I think a LITTLE more of the profession than that.

They KNEW they were illegal. This is not a 'mistake'. What a load of BS.

This was a crime. A clear message must be sent.

Is the life of one person killed by a drunk worth less than any of the lives on a jet? What about the bus load of people? At what number does DUI become a REALLY bad thing--you know, a crime worth 5 years in the pen? I know you don't qualify just by backing out of your driveway...

Did they know they were illegal? Or, like many of us, did they just think they were really hung over, having quit drinking within the 8 hour period?

This was a crime. The punishment was implemented by a judge afraid to show that he wasn't weak on crime. If this was a judge or a cop or a legislator, they would have walked with probation--a brief probation.

When we start meting out punishment equally for all in this country, then, I'll have no beef with this or any other sentence.TC

 

[Iamavi8TOR]

"Ever drank on an overnight? (let's say you have a 24 layover, get considerably drunk, cut it off at 12 hrs. Company rules covered, faa covered, legally sober.....are you gonna be 100% - Nope). "

You obviously have missed the sentence in the regs that states the legal BAC limit for pilots is .04, not just 8 hours or company 12 hour rules. I can assure you that if your get "considerably drunk," cut off 12 hours before the trip; that you will blow over .04. I know, because I used to be a cop and breathalyzer operator.

These guys got what they deserved. If not for the actions of an asstute TSA screener, a major aviation accident was probaby averted. A break in the chain scenario.

Just what is the punishment for careless disregard for the safety of 125 passengers, a 40 million dollar airplane not to mention who they may have landed on top of if they crashed.

For all you alchies out there crying foul, let me quote a great line that fits: "Son your ego is writing checks that your body can't cash!"

*REGULATION QUOTER ALERT* ISSUED 0001Z......

I totally FORGOT about the .04 thingy, oh yeah, and the 8 hour thingy...(sarcasm)

I did specify, though loosely, that you (the person in the hypothetical situation) were legally sober (ie: assuming less than .04 BAC).

How can you assure me (or us) that, ".....if your get "considerably drunk," cut off 12 hours before the trip; that you will blow over .04......" so vehemently. I didn't quantify any parameters in the situation. I didn't specify the person's weight, I didn't specify the amount of alcohol consumed, the rate of consumtion, etc. etc.

aeronautic1 - "......For all you alchies out there crying foul, let me quote a great line that fits: "Son your ego is writing checks that your body can't cash!"

I don't appreciate being lumped into 1 group (the alchies) b/c I think 5 years of jail is too excessive. I may drink a beer with dinner, or maybe once a month have 2, maybe 3 at a sitting; maybe 1-2 times a year do I get considerably drunk(all FAR, company legal, mind you). I guess if we're lumping people together, I'd have to say you sound like a hypocritical bible-thumper. Like I said, I believe they should be severely punished, just not in jail.

Being an ex cop, you should know the answer to the following question:

Is the punishment the same for the following situations (in general - I know different states do things differently):

1. Being convicted for DUI
2. Being convicted for DUI and having a single-vehicle accident, causing $65K property damage
3. Being convicted for DUI and killing a pedestrian.
4. Being convicted for DUI and killing a bus load of kids.

You and I know that if you get a DUI, you may get a suspension, community service, maybe probation and that's it. If you actually kill someone you could or probably will log some cell time. The cactus dudes didn't kill or hurt anyone, they didn't purposely show drunk. They showed a HUGE lack of judgement and made an incredible mistake. They definitely get what they deserve, but jail is TOO MUCH.

 

[Ty Webb]

Also, a normal person will metabolize a normal-sized drink every 1.5 to 2 hours. So, in 12 hours, you would metabolize 6 beers from the time you stopped drinking, and still be at 0.0

If you're drinking so much on a layover that 12 hours isn't enough, well, that's probably another problem altogether.

 

[AAslag]

Dude I grew up with has had three DUI. Spent a lot of money, lost a fishing boat and wore a sensor around his ankle for 6 months, however he has yet to do any time.

The company he works for specilizes in multi-story parking garages. He supervises the assembly. Still a heavy drinker.

I wonder, how many people and expensive autos can reside in a five level garage at one time?

Yes, I agree that they screwed up. But let the time fit the crime.

Want to know if your house has carpenter ants?
Look for the pile of tiny little beer cans!

And yet (previously mentioned) Michael Jackson walks free.