ALPA taking 2% from Bonus

[jonjuan]

Do you count the cost of your benefits when you figure how much you make? When filling out an application for a loan, do add the additional 40% in benefits costs to the top of your salary? Didn't think so. DW's benefits are counted by the DOL, but they shouldn't be. Using their requirements for calculating compensation, I was making six figures as a CRJ Captain at Pinnacle, and I can assure you that that was not the case.

40% in benefits?? You really made $40k+ a year in benefits alone? WOW! Care to itemize these benefits? Please don't tell us that your companies portion of your healthcare was $30K either-MAYBE $3K. Add $2K for a 401K match and that's about it.
Distinctly different from DWs benefits, both in size and percentage, I am sure.

 

[DoinTime]

40% in benefits?? You really made $40k+ a year in benefits alone? WOW! Care to itemize these benefits? Please don't tell us that your companies portion of your healthcare was $30K either-MAYBE $3K. Add $2K for a 401K match and that's about it.

PCL benefits and employee expenses (all accounted for by regulators) account for about 30% of average CA salary.

The biggest drivers are:
- heath/dental is approximately 10%
- 401K matching average is approx 2%
- Company FICA matching 7.65%

The other 10% is made up these and others:
- employee parking
- Life insurance
- Disability insurance
- Unemployment insurance

Percentages increase for FO's increase because of decreased pay but relatively static benefit costs. Benefit package is about 45-50% of FO salary.

Distinctly different from DWs benefits, both in size and percentage, I am sure.

DW expenses are drastically different in nature and scope. The ALPA president has a residence as well as a vehicle maintained in D.C. He also has an extensive travel budget (no he doesn't jumpseat everywhere) not to mention the wining and dining required to stay on politicians good side.

Would you propose the ALPA president pay all of these costs not normally incurred by a line pilot out of pocket?

 

[PCL_128]

No, I don't. But I don't get $100k+ in extra benefits either. It's nowhere near the same, and you know it.

As DoinTime said, the President of the Association has many expenses that the average person doesn't, including the requirement to live in DC away from his home, expensive dinners with politicians, a car in DC, etc... But besides that, the average employee in America receives anywhere from 20%-40% of his salary in benefits. I haven't heard anyone ever include this amount when telling someone what they make, but the DOL requires ALPA and all other unions to report it as "compensation."

A better argument would be to explain WHY he deserves every penny of that money (300k or 450k, you decide) based on personal performance in the job.

The ALPA President is actually woefully underpaid. The job basically amounts to giving up your entire life for your term of office. For eight years in office, not mentioning his previous positions that had similar workloads, Duane was working about 330 days a year. His average day had him busy from sun-up to sun-down. Prater's schedule is the same, Babbit's was the same, and so on. The job of the President of the Association is non-stop. Would you give up your entire life for the next eight years just for $350k? I wouldn't. Very few people will. If you drop it to $200k, even fewer people will. You need to compensate people for the work that they do, and for the expertise that they provide. Very few pilots would be able to do the job that DW did. He almost single-handedly put us on the map on Capital Hill for the past decade. Other Presidents had certainly done the work, as do ALPA's lobbyists, but no one else had built the relationships and respect on the Hill that Duane was able to. Now, many of the congressmen and senators that Duane befriended are important committee chairmen that could make differences in our careers. Whereas ALPA wouldn't have been a second thought to them before, DW's work with them has changed that. That in and of itself is enough to earn his salary as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As long as you guys keep trying to discredit ALPA we will continue to be ineffective.... do you want to play the blame game or work on Air Line Pilot careers...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The ALPA President is actually woefully underpaid. The job basically amounts to giving up your entire life for your term of office. For eight years in office, not mentioning his previous positions that had similar workloads, Duane was working about 330 days a year. His average day had him busy from sun-up to sun-down. Prater's schedule is the same, Babbit's was the same, and so on. The job of the President of the Association is non-stop. Would you give up your entire life for the next eight years just for $350k? I wouldn't. Very few people will. If you drop it to $200k, even fewer people will. You need to compensate people for the work that they do, and for the expertise that they provide. Very few pilots would be able to do the job that DW did. He almost single-handedly put us on the map on Capital Hill for the past decade. Other Presidents had certainly done the work, as do ALPA's lobbyists, but no one else had built the relationships and respect on the Hill that Duane was able to. Now, many of the congressmen and senators that Duane befriended are important committee chairmen that could make differences in our careers. Whereas ALPA wouldn't have been a second thought to them before, DW's work with them has changed that. That in and of itself is enough to earn his salary as far as I'm concerned.

The next step is understanding the value this brings to your career. Most don't have a clue.

What most ALPA pilots measure thier career worth is their direct pay and work rules.... IOW..."what is in it for me...." That is the mark of a skilled laborer..

A PROFESSIONAL understands the value of working the non tangilbe issues... as DW did on CapHill

The choice is for every Air Line Pilot out there....

Do you want to be a skilled laborer or a Professional...

 

[eaglefly]

As DoinTime said, the President of the Association has many expenses that the average person doesn't, including the requirement to live in DC away from his home, expensive dinners with politicians, a car in DC, etc... But besides that, the average employee in America receives anywhere from 20%-40% of his salary in benefits. I haven't heard anyone ever include this amount when telling someone what they make, but the DOL requires ALPA and all other unions to report it as "compensation." The ALPA President is actually woefully underpaid. The job basically amounts to giving up your entire life for your term of office. For eight years in office, not mentioning his previous positions that had similar workloads, Duane was working about 330 days a year. His average day had him busy from sun-up to sun-down. Prater's schedule is the same, Babbit's was the same, and so on. The job of the President of the Association is non-stop. Would you give up your entire life for the next eight years just for $350k? I wouldn't. Very few people will. If you drop it to $200k, even fewer people will. You need to compensate people for the work that they do, and for the expertise that they provide. Very few pilots would be able to do the job that DW did. He almost single-handedly put us on the map on Capital Hill for the past decade. Other Presidents had certainly done the work, as do ALPA's lobbyists, but no one else had built the relationships and respect on the Hill that Duane was able to. Now, many of the congressmen and senators that Duane befriended are important committee chairmen that could make differences in our careers. Whereas ALPA wouldn't have been a second thought to them before, DW's work with them has changed that. That in and of itself is enough to earn his salary as far as I'm concerned.

It's o.k. Duane, you made your millions and so you should be happy. Yes, you left in shame for having left the profession substantially worse than when you found it, but hey..............like any good CEO, you got rich !

BTW, I always thought those snappy suits and expensive cufflinks looked sharp !

 

[DoinTime]

It's o.k. Duane, you made your millions and so you should be happy. Yes, you left in shame for having left the profession substantially worse than when you found it, but hey..............like any good CEO, you got rich !

BTW, I always thought those snappy suits and expensive cufflinks looked sharp !

Hows your explanation of how ALPA sold you down the river coming?

 

[eaglefly]

Hows your explanation of how ALPA sold you down the river coming?

Me personally ?

Why, I've gotten a very nice magazine every month, so I'm doing just fine. Yes, it does cost $200 per issue, but it's very colorful.

Looking around though at a multitude of other airlines whose pilots were decimated under the "protection" of Uncle Duane and Co., I'd say there are thousands of River rafters about.

Perhaps you should ask a former TWA pilot about the concept of selling out ?

You may want to put ear plugs in first...........it's going to be loud and long.

Say happy holidays to the office staff there in Herndon for me tommorrow morning, will ya.

 

[DoinTime]

Looking around though at a multitude of other airlines whose pilots were decimated under the "protection" of Uncle Duane and Co., I'd say there are thousands of River rafters about.

You misplace your blame.

The multitude of pilots that were decimated were done so under the "protection" of the federal bankruptcy laws. Federal laws do not change overnight regardless of who you are. Jimmy Hoffa would have had the same results as DW. Actually, thats not true. Jimmy wouldn't have had to spend most of his time quelling the whining of those who sit in the cheap seats and throw stones (like you).

 

[eaglefly]

You misplace your blame.

The multitude of pilots that were decimated were done so under the "protection" of the federal bankruptcy laws. Federal laws do not change overnight regardless of who you are. Jimmy Hoffa would have had the same results as DW. Actually, thats not true. Jimmy wouldn't have had to spend most of his time quelling the whining of those who sit in the cheap seats and throw stones (like you).

Spoken like a true Herndon salary maker. Again, Happy holidays to the REST of the Herndon office staff.

 

[PCL_128]

Spoken like a true Herndon salary maker. Again, Happy holidays to the REST of the Herndon office staff.

He doesn't work in Herndon, and isn't on an ALPA salary.

 

[TurboAWD]

Ever look at the salaries of the people in Herndon ?

The lowliest secretary who's principle background highlight was successfully picking her nose, made about $45 grand as I recall.

So just because pilots are dumb and work for peanuts, you think it is unreasonable for someone who lives in a very high cost of living area to demand a decent check?

Turbo

 

[TurboAWD]

You ALPA haters are a bunch of whiners.

You want ALPA to put the compensation bar high?

Good.

So, what committee do you volunteer for?
How many LEC meetings have you been to?
Did you participate in your last LEC election?
How many picketing events have you gone to?
How much do you contribute to ALPA-PAC?

Turbo

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It's o.k. Duane, you made your millions and so you should be happy. Yes, you left in shame for having left the profession substantially worse than when you found it, but hey..............like any good CEO, you got rich !

BTW, I always thought those snappy suits and expensive cufflinks looked sharp !

Can you objectively explain what DW did...while in office... in terms of the profession. Not in terms of "whats in it for me..."

Also, please explain the 2006 BOD election dynamic that lost DW the election..... please include the UAL and CAL factor..... including UAL's MB.


As long as you keep the fight in here... management will keep laughing at us skilled hourly wage pilots...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Me personally ?

Why, I've gotten a very nice magazine every month, so I'm doing just fine. Yes, it does cost $200 per issue, but it's very colorful.

ignorant

Looking around though at a multitude of other airlines whose pilots were decimated under the "protection" of Uncle Duane and Co., I'd say there are thousands of River rafters about.

They voted via democracy...

Perhaps you should ask a former TWA pilot about the concept of selling out ?

AMR, APA....

You may want to put ear plugs in first...........it's going to be loud and long.

I know FA's that can whine better than you...

Say happy holidays to the office staff there in Herndon for me tommorrow morning, will ya.

Keep your eye on YOUR career....

You ALPA haters are a bunch of whiners.

That is all they can do. See, in order to be effective one has to accept responsibility for themselves. Like children who depend on others and when it doesn't go their way... what do they do.....whine... becuase they can't do anything else...they have given control over to others...

You want ALPA to put the compensation bar high?

Good.

Oh they want ALPA to do all the work... what they want is thier fellow pilots to volunteer thier time off while they enjoy thier time off...

So, what committee do you volunteer for?

Are you kididng.. that would take a self starter and critical thought... no..volunteer committee work is for smart pilots... not the freeloaders who show up, fly thier trip and go home..

How many LEC meetings have you been to?

Please... there are high scores on Xbox to obtain... why would I want to go to a meeting..and particapte in domocacy... voice my opinon and try and understand the issues..

Did you participate in your last LEC election?

Ha! Turbo you silly silly man.... that would mean I am an American and I have American values. That I believe in our consitution and I recognize the sacrifice of the US Armed forces that give thier lives so that we can practice deomocracy in its many forms. No no.. I'd rather just let the company unilaterally control my career.... Like the Matrix... eating the steak.... ignorance is bliss... just put me back in the Matrix...and I don't want to remember anything..

How many picketing events have you gone to?

You crazy boy! Picketing events require a little bit of courage... besides...I wanna get the high score on Xbox

How much do you contribute to ALPA-PAC?

Now you've done it!!

 

[John Pennekamp]

As DoinTime said, the President of the Association has many expenses that the average person doesn't, including the requirement to live in DC away from his home, expensive dinners with politicians, a car in DC, etc... But besides that, the average employee in America receives anywhere from 20%-40% of his salary in benefits. I haven't heard anyone ever include this amount when telling someone what they make, but the DOL requires ALPA and all other unions to report it as "compensation." The ALPA President is actually woefully underpaid. The job basically amounts to giving up your entire life for your term of office. For eight years in office, not mentioning his previous positions that had similar workloads, Duane was working about 330 days a year. His average day had him busy from sun-up to sun-down. Prater's schedule is the same, Babbit's was the same, and so on. The job of the President of the Association is non-stop. Would you give up your entire life for the next eight years just for $350k? I wouldn't. Very few people will. If you drop it to $200k, even fewer people will. You need to compensate people for the work that they do, and for the expertise that they provide. Very few pilots would be able to do the job that DW did. He almost single-handedly put us on the map on Capital Hill for the past decade. Other Presidents had certainly done the work, as do ALPA's lobbyists, but no one else had built the relationships and respect on the Hill that Duane was able to. Now, many of the congressmen and senators that Duane befriended are important committee chairmen that could make differences in our careers. Whereas ALPA wouldn't have been a second thought to them before, DW's work with them has changed that. That in and of itself is enough to earn his salary as far as I'm concerned.

Ya, ok, I'm sure DC is SOOOO much more expensive than Duane's beach residence in Clearwater, FL

Y'all can stop defending him. He is guilty of the same thing as the CEOs he lambasted. Stealing money from the workers, doing nothing with it, and retiring a very rich man, with no progress to show for it.

 

[Soverytired]

You ALPA haters are a bunch of whiners.

You want ALPA to put the compensation bar high?

Good.

So, what committee do you volunteer for?
How many LEC meetings have you been to?
Did you participate in your last LEC election?
How many picketing events have you gone to?
How much do you contribute to ALPA-PAC?

Turbo

Ahh, the battered wife syndrome defense.

It's YOUR fault your husband beats you. You need to work harder and things will all be better. Because it's all YOUR fault, don't you see? You can't possibly expect HIM to deliver anything.

 

[Soverytired]

As DoinTime said, the President of the Association has many expenses that the average person doesn't, including the requirement to live in DC away from his home, expensive dinners with politicians, a car in DC, etc...

Fair enough. But I would expect this cost to go down DRAMATICALLY for the past two years. As I understand it (and I'm no expert), the amount of $$$ that politicians can legally accept via fancy dinners has been severely curtailed in recent years via ethics reform legislation.

Care to predict if the expenses of the new President will go UP or DOWN this year?

The ALPA President is actually woefully underpaid. The job basically amounts to giving up your entire life for your term of office. For eight years in office, not mentioning his previous positions that had similar workloads, Duane was working about 330 days a year. His average day had him busy from sun-up to sun-down. Prater's schedule is the same, Babbit's was the same, and so on. The job of the President of the Association is non-stop.

Thanks for the honest reply. Herein lies out root disagreement, I think.

• You argue that because he works hard, he deserves lots of money.
• I argue that he should be paid based on results (excuses don't count for executive level positions), not on how many hours he clocks in.

After all, the hardest workers in the world get paid almost nothing. Be they sweatshop workers in China, or minimum wage Joe's in the US, they work very hard and make almost nothing. Why?

Because not much is really expected of them. I'd have to say that the President of an organization with a quarter of a billion dollars in cash has A LOT expected of him.

I don't think DW met the bar. One a-holes opinion, of course.

 

[Soverytired]

Y
It wasn't ALPA that sold out CCAir and negotiated that crappy contract. It was the Mesa Pilot group. Everything you call your own is a direct reflection of yourself. Your contract did not meet any of the criteria for rejection by ALPA so DW had to sign it.

I can't speak intelligently about the CCAir contract, other than to say that they voted it in, so they were obviously happy with it. They weren't allowed to "get involved" and negotiate their own contract though, were they?

The Mesa contract, however, was concessionary in every way except pay. It was a dramatic step backwards for the Mesa pilot group, which didn't have much of a contract to begin with. What they lost in their new contract off the top of my head:

• Loss of move days (that's right . . your domicile closes, you'll be moving whenever you happen to have a day off)
• Scheduling rules opening the door for "camping trips"
• No pay for PC checks (except per diem)
• Scheduling rules allowing 10 hour ready reserve (re: airport reserve) shifts

And so forth. DW sure didn't have a problem signing off on this POS.

Now, I hasten to add, the Mesa pilots voted it in (overwhelmingly), so ultimately, they're responsible for it. I think the CCAir pilots should have been given the same courtesy.

 

[PCL_128]

Ya, ok, I'm sure DC is SOOOO much more expensive than Duane's beach residence in Clearwater, FL

What does that have to do with anything? Duane's house in Florida isn't any of my concern. The fact that he has to keep a second resident in DC is. The Association requires him to keep a residence in DC, so the Association needs to provide him with that residence since it isn't where he would normally live.

Y'all can stop defending him. He is guilty of the same thing as the CEOs he lambasted. Stealing money from the workers, doing nothing with it, and retiring a very rich man, with no progress to show for it.

"Stealing money?" He was paid whatever the BOD approved for him. I don't remember hearing any "nays" coming from the ASA table when the President's compensation resolution was being voted on at the BOD, so I assume that you didn't have a problem with it. Either that, or you're too spineless to voice your true opinion. Which was it? One of the other officers in my council at PCL sat on the compensation committee at the last BOD. Did he witness an outcry from the other members of the committee about lowering the compensation? Nope. You can't blame the President for getting paid what the BOD decides to pay him. Remember, Prater, the guy you voted for, campaigned saying that he wouldn't accept this "big" compensation package. What did he do? Exactly what Duane did. He took the money without so much as a small objection. The fact is that the BOD determines the President's compensation. The Officers aren't even allowed to be in the room when the BOD votes on the resolutions. If you want to complain about compensation, then point your blame at the BOD. Oh wait, that was you!