Alpa Strikes Back!!!

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Are you implying that ALPA told the company what to offer us during our 2002 contract extension (our current contact)? Or were you saying that ALPA guided us during the 1994 contract that the extension was based on?

I guess I'm missing the connection between anything we've negotiated so far and ALPA. If you meant the current contract research, we're still several months away from opening our negotiations. It remains to be seen whether anything ALPA (or anything the other consultants have provided us) will prove useful.

T1

Simply put, the SWAPA guys are simply buying data from ALPA. The SWAPA guys take the data and use it for thier negotiation purposes.

ALPA hasn't told SWA anything. ALPA has simply provided a (valuable) service to the SWAPA pilots.

IF SWAPA was big enough they may have thier own E&FA.

 

[Lear70]

Wow...not exactly tons of time off if you flew 980 hard hours, eh? But yea, as I said above in another post, I don't really think it is accurate to lump per diem into one's W-2 for the year...but whatever makes you happy.

True, I only averaged 13 days off a month doing that, but I couldn't hold more than those days off anyway. Our lines were built to 90 hours on a regular basis almost the entire year last year. They had to remove almost 100 pilots from flying in November and December because of it (me included). Swap a trip here and there and my lines were blocking 95-98 hours a month with the same number of days off. Creative trip trading is what I call it, working smarter, not harder since I'd have to work those days anyway.

Last I heard...and this comes from an officer at National...is that the Mesaba MEC isn't considering anything of the sort, but he could be misled of course. Who knows. Very dynamic situation. But I don't see Wychor giving in so easily.

That info came from a buddy at Mesaba last week, might not be entirely accurate, but I was told a 6% pay cut is the last offer the pilot group is proposing to Mesaba, prior to the bankruptcy judge ruling.

Could be wrong, I don't have a verifiable source for 100% accurate data.

What weren't you so impressed by with respect to the XJT contract? Were you just looking at the rate table or did you read the entire agreement cover to cover?

Leaving pay aside? Can't do that, it's the heart of the agreement. Work rules mean a lot, but pay is the bottom line.

One of our union guys posted the highlights on our website. It brought your CRJ pay rates to about $2.00 an hour higher than ours - NOT stellar (I wouldn't have signed for less than a 20% raise). I was already getting 13 days off and the average was 13-14 hours a month with very few lineholders getting less than 12 days off, so the 12 day off minimum wasn't that impressive to me either.

I'm not saying you didn't get a "good" agreement in a crappy time in aviation, I'm just saying I wouldn't have signed it, it's below my requirements for a career and I had no guarantees that I'd be moving on like I did.

The core XJT NC was made up of 3 pilots and assisting them were 3 lawyers (2 of whom were the Director of ALPA Representation and the Asst. Director of Representation) as well as many other sub-committee members and ALPA staffers. I've seen what happens when an MEC lets the lawyers do all of the negotiating with little to no pilot input or access and the results aren't pretty. Pilots should be in charge of the process.

That's impressive, I didn't know that about your 3 legal reps helping you. Pinnacle doesn't have it so lucky.

Where, incidentally, did you see what happens when an MEC lets the lawyers do all the negotiating without pilot input? That's what the MEC "SHOULD" do, is provide input and direction to a team of professional negotiators. That way, pilots DO stay "in charge" of the process but aren't acting outside their experience doing a job they were never trained to do.

I don't know your contract administrator but if you don't feel like he is doing a good job, then you should contact Wake Gordon and talk to him about it.

Oh believe me, Wake knows EXACTLY how I feel about DF. Then again, I was never excited to have Wake at the helm of the MEC when he fought against all the basic tenants of things I thought were needed, such as publishing T.A.'d sections as they were agreed upon (thereby reducing the time needed for the pilots to figure out an entire contract in a couple days or weeks before voting), fighting the company harder on grievance issues, stop signing LOA's while you're in negotiations, stop signing CRAP LOA'S without a period of comment for the pilot group (there are 2 right off the top of my head that are absolute sh*t), the list goes on and on.

The absolute topper was being told by Wake that "I was crazy" to expect a $10 an hour raise. I believe my answer started with an F and ended with a U. Hell, just COLA increases from the period we're without a contract is 10% you freakin' idiot! I'm sorry, I digress...

That simply isn't true, as evidenced by my above comments highlighting that we had 3 professional negotiators with us for the bulk of our negotiations and never less than 1 at any time from start to finish. That is what they do....negotiate for a living.

-Neal

Like I said, your experience having 3 professional negotiators, including the experience behind them, is DRASTICALLY different from the level of experience and/or ability of the ONE attorney PCL has working for them.

I'm sincerely glad it worked for you and you're happy with what you achieved, my personal minimums are about what my career track is now with airTRAN, and why not at a "regional"? PCL is just as big in terms of number of aircraft / pilots and has a better profit margin than airTran, so why not better pay?

Food for thought...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Leaving pay aside? Can't do that, it's the heart of the agreement. Work rules mean a lot, but pay is the bottom line.

You mean W-2's are the bottom line, cause a well negotiated CBA can bring lots of soft pay. Hourly rate isn't everything.....

 

[Lear70]

You mean W-2's are the bottom line, cause a well negotiated CBA can bring lots of soft pay. Hourly rate isn't everything.....

True, but it's MOST important.

A min day doesn't mean a whole lot when your company already schedules people a minimum of 4 hours a day (almost NO trips at PCL have less than 4 hours on ANY day).

A duty rig doesn't mean a whole lot when your company already schedules people for 4-5 hours of flying a day, 90+ hours of block with 14 day off averages (5.5 hour a day average).

Might be important at other companies, but not at PCL under the current line construction, and even if it was important and gave someone an extra 10 hours of credit per month, which is better?

$60 an hour * 100 hours (90 block, 10 credit) = $6,000 a month.
$70 an hour * 90 hours of block (no soft credits) = $6,300 a month.

"SHOW ME THE MONEY!!"

 

[Diesel]

Per diem does count as part of the salary. If you spent $40/day on food then your spending way too much. You can treat yourself to a nice dinner and still come in under

Nice dinner? What about the rest of the meals..

******************************

 

[BluDevAv8r]

True, I only averaged 13 days off a month doing that, but I couldn't hold more than those days off anyway. Our lines were built to 90 hours on a regular basis almost the entire year last year. They had to remove almost 100 pilots from flying in November and December because of it (me included). Swap a trip here and there and my lines were blocking 95-98 hours a month with the same number of days off. Creative trip trading is what I call it, working smarter, not harder since I'd have to work those days anyway.

Of course...that is always the goal.

That info came from a buddy at Mesaba last week, might not be entirely accurate, but I was told a 6% pay cut is the last offer the pilot group is proposing to Mesaba, prior to the bankruptcy judge ruling.

I am surprised that the Mesaba MEC would offer anything...although my guess is that if they did, it was only to appease the judge so that he was less inclined to toss their contract out.

Leaving pay aside? Can't do that, it's the heart of the agreement. Work rules mean a lot, but pay is the bottom line.

I made reference to the pay rate table. Big difference than just "pay." Work rules are the multiplier of the hourly rate as you know.

One of our union guys posted the highlights on our website. It brought your CRJ pay rates to about $2.00 an hour higher than ours - NOT stellar (I wouldn't have signed for less than a 20% raise). I was already getting 13 days off and the average was 13-14 hours a month with very few lineholders getting less than 12 days off, so the 12 day off minimum wasn't that impressive to me either.

At DOS, XJT's 6th year Captain rate was $2.44 more than PCL's, or 3.8% higher. Today, XJT's 6th year Captain rate is 6.4% higher than PCL's.

Simply put, short of getting released to a strike, XJT was never getting a 20% raise. And even more frankly, I don't think you will see PCL get a 20% raise either. You can wish in one hand and sh-t in the other...but let's see which one fills up first.

If PCL can build all 95 hour lines to 13 or 14 days off, I'd be shocked. Having 12 days off minimum versus your 10 days off is a big deal, believe it or not.

That 6th year XJT captain gets 9% deposited into his 401k every quarter while the same 6th year PCL captain gets 40% of 6%, which equals 2.4%. Those dollars are no different than pay rate dollars...it is just deferred compensation. Moving along...that XJT captain today is now doing 13% better than that PCL captain (6.4% + 6.6%). XJT's profit sharing plan paid out a little over 5% this year so now that XJT captain is doing 18% better today than a PCL captain. This doesn't factor in the numerous soft time credits as well as higher per diem (20 cent difference) at XJT versus PCL. Also, I believe PCL is 50% deadhead while XJT is 100%. Throw XJT's min day/DPM credits into the mix as well as its pay by leg structure and an XJT pilot's compensation will easily top a PCL pilot's compensation by 20%.

For what it is worth, I didn't fly anywhere near 1000 hours last year but I credited over 1300 hours. THAT is the value of soft time.

I'm not saying you didn't get a "good" agreement in a crappy time in aviation, I'm just saying I wouldn't have signed it, it's below my requirements for a career and I had no guarantees that I'd be moving on like I did.

I know what you are saying but I think you looked solely at the 11% DOS increase for Captains and didn't look at the entire contract, as evidenced by the above numbers. This is typical of most pilots. They turn straight to the rate table and ignore all of the other stuff in the CBA. You would have voted no on XJT's contract based solely off of a pay rate table and believe it or not, you never would have seen a better deal...since after XJT signed that TA, the industry continued to go south. Management would have quickly removed even that deal off of the table.

That's impressive, I didn't know that about your 3 legal reps helping you. Pinnacle doesn't have it so lucky.

While we had plenty of professional experience at the table with us, the Scheduling and Compensation sections were written solely by the line pilot Negotiating Committee.

Where, incidentally, did you see what happens when an MEC lets the lawyers do all the negotiating without pilot input? That's what the MEC "SHOULD" do, is provide input and direction to a team of professional negotiators. That way, pilots DO stay "in charge" of the process but aren't acting outside their experience doing a job they were never trained to do.

A good pilot negotiating committee will run the negotiations process with advice from their professional negotiators. Some sections will be written by the lawyers (Scope for example) and others should be written by the pilots in my opinion (Scheduling). Finding the right pilots to be on the committee is the important part. It takes a while to get seasoned and up to speed to be able to write contract language.

Oh believe me, Wake knows EXACTLY how I feel about DF. Then again, I was never excited to have Wake at the helm of the MEC when he fought against all the basic tenants of things I thought were needed, such as publishing T.A.'d sections as they were agreed upon (thereby reducing the time needed for the pilots to figure out an entire contract in a couple days or weeks before voting), fighting the company harder on grievance issues, stop signing LOA's while you're in negotiations, stop signing CRAP LOA'S without a period of comment for the pilot group (there are 2 right off the top of my head that are absolute sh*t), the list goes on and on.

For starters, negotiating LOA's while in Section 6 negotiations isn't necessarily a bad thing. Depends on the situation. Secondly, XJT's NC published each section as it became TA'd for the reasons you stated above. Makes perfect sense.

The absolute topper was being told by Wake that "I was crazy" to expect a $10 an hour raise. I believe my answer started with an F and ended with a U. Hell, just COLA increases from the period we're without a contract is 10% you freakin' idiot! I'm sorry, I digress...

Doesn't mean he doesn't think $10/hour is justified or warranted...he just doesn't believe it is attainable most likely. And frankly, I don't think you will see $10/hour increase either. Not on date of signing.

I'm sincerely glad it worked for you and you're happy with what you achieved, my personal minimums are about what my career track is now with airTRAN, and why not at a "regional"? PCL is just as big in terms of number of aircraft / pilots and has a better profit margin than airTran, so why not better pay?

Apples to oranges with Airtran. Airtran sells its own tickets while PCL is a vendor to NWA. Airtran's airplanes have a much higher RASM than PCL's 50 seat CRJ and Airtran's pilots aren't competing against other 50 seat providers vying for NWA's feed. HUGE difference.

-Neal

 

[Lear70]

That 6th year XJT captain gets 9% deposited into his 401k every quarter while the same 6th year PCL captain gets 40% of 6%, which equals 2.4%. Those dollars are no different than pay rate dollars...it is just deferred compensation. Moving along...that XJT captain today is now doing 13% better than that PCL captain (6.4% + 6.6%).

That's excellent, great job on the 401k portion, no doubt about that.

XJT's profit sharing plan paid out a little over 5% this year so now that XJT captain is doing 18% better today than a PCL captain. This doesn't factor in the numerous soft time credits as well as higher per diem (20 cent difference) at XJT versus PCL. Also, I believe PCL is 50% deadhead while XJT is 100%. Throw XJT's min day/DPM credits into the mix as well as its pay by leg structure and an XJT pilot's compensation will easily top a PCL pilot's compensation by 20%.

Well, there's a couple issues in there. First, I don't like profit-sharing. It's too easy for a management group to find ways to "reinvest" in capital spending items and there went the "profit". It really depends on how the profit-sharing is set up and how it's calculated. If it's done so that the company has to pay based on pure revenue / operating expense, regardless of other non-operating expenses, then I MIGHT sign off on it. Otherwise, no way.

Second, in the last 6 months I was at PCL, I deadheaded exactly ONCE on a 2:30 trip BOS-MEM. Cost me 1:15 in deadhead pay not to have 100% deadhead pay. A VERY FEW people deadheaded every other leg, but with 100% deadhead credit PCL would simply stop making trips like that. Like I said, if deadhead credit ends up being 10 hours a year (3 times what my average was), I'd still come out ahead making $5 or $10 more in hourly rates.

For what it is worth, I didn't fly anywhere near 1000 hours last year but I credited over 1300 hours. THAT is the value of soft time.

I'd like to see how you did that, MORE than 30% in soft credits doesn't sound any way attainable unless you bid JUST to make that happen (bid trips with deadheads every other leg, bid trips with 14 hour duty days but only 2-3 hours of flying, and fly 18-20 days a month).

A good pilot negotiating committee will run the negotiations process with advice from their professional negotiators. Some sections will be written by the lawyers (Scope for example) and others should be written by the pilots in my opinion (Scheduling). Finding the right pilots to be on the committee is the important part. It takes a while to get seasoned and up to speed to be able to write contract language.

Again, I agree with you that the contract should be WRITTEN by pilots, but it should be NEGOTIATED by professional negotiators with pilots in attendance who can counsel the negotiators when the company starts trying to twist and screw with things.

Secondly, XJT's NC published each section as it became TA'd for the reasons you stated above. Makes perfect sense.

Exactly. Good stuff right there.

Doesn't mean he doesn't think $10/hour is justified or warranted...he just doesn't believe it is attainable most likely. And frankly, I don't think you will see $10/hour increase either. Not on date of signing.

That's because Wake is actually a union-BUSTER since way back. Used to own and run a trucking company and busted his butt to make sure they never unionized (and not in a good way). This person is the MEC CHAIR??!!

As far as a $10 an hour raise on DOS, I don't see any reason why not when the company makes as much as they do and it's about 1.5% to 2% of their profit margin. Time for them to share.

Apples to oranges with Airtran. Airtran sells its own tickets while PCL is a vendor to NWA. Airtran's airplanes have a much higher RASM than PCL's 50 seat CRJ and Airtran's pilots aren't competing against other 50 seat providers vying for NWA's feed. HUGE difference.

-Neal

THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM WITH REGIONAL PILOTS!!

I'm not trying to pick on you or be an a*s, really I'm not, but that really pisses me off when people say that.

Pay SHOULD be purely a function of market conditions and company profitability. Pinnacle is EXTREMELY PROFITABLE. They have shown NO signs of losing the business (yet), and even if they do take a hit on aircraft (NWA reduces them in size), they'll STILL be extremely profitable.

WHEN and IF PCL loses the RFP and drops below 79 aircraft (the CEO's self-described minimum operational size for "guaranteed profitability"), THEN I'll reduce my expectations.

Until then, I don't give a crap if a company is Ma and Pa's flying service or if they're Southwest. Revenue is revenue is revenue, I don't give a carved rat's a*s where it comes from as long as it keeps coming. If regional pilots would realize that VERY BASIC BUSINESS ECONOMIC PRINCIPAL, maybe they'd start to dig out of the hole they're in.

Good luck to you, you DEFINITELY have a better contract than PCL, I just think you honestly could have done about 5-10% better than you did on rates. Just my .02 cents,,,

 

[PCL_128]

That info came from a buddy at Mesaba last week, might not be entirely accurate, but I was told a 6% pay cut is the last offer the pilot group is proposing to Mesaba, prior to the bankruptcy judge ruling.

The Mesaba NC hasn't made a "last offer" yet. Negotiations start again tomorrow and go on until the hearing on Thursday. Another extension on Thursday is the likely outcome.

Leaving pay aside? Can't do that, it's the heart of the agreement. Work rules mean a lot, but pay is the bottom line.

You're right that you can't leave pay aside, but you have to alter the way you think of pay. The pay rate table isn't what's important. The W-2 is what really matters. What you want is to get the best possible combination of work rules and pay rates so that the W-2 is industry-leading. That is our goal, and that is also what XJT managed to do. Their pay rate table may not be the best in the industry, but ALPA's E & FA department calculated that XJT's contract yields the best W-2 in the industry. You have to look at the entire CBA, not just Section 3.

That's impressive, I didn't know that about your 3 legal reps helping you. Pinnacle doesn't have it so lucky.

We have just as much support available to us as XJT did. We work constantly with Dan F. and have also worked quite a bit with another ALPA attorney named Jim J. We will also have increasing support as we move into the sections that will need more attorney-specific help. We also have constant support from E & FA, R & I, Aeromedical, Legal, Representation, etc... during the negotiating process. The idea you have about just 3 pilot negotiators and DF sitting in a room is not accurate. And to be clear, the company isn't using professional negotiators either. At the table for the company are Buddy C., Doug S., Barney, and their attorney Joe M. who doesn't really say much during negotiations.

That's what the MEC "SHOULD" do, is provide input and direction to a team of professional negotiators.

That would be a disaster in all but a few sections like Scope. In Scheduling, Hours of Service, General, Definitions, etc... it is very important to have pilots doing the negotiating because we are the only ones that really understand how these things all fit together in our daily lives at work. Our NC members have gone through extensive training from professional negotiators to prepare them for this process.

Oh believe me, Wake knows EXACTLY how I feel about DF. Then again, I was never excited to have Wake at the helm of the MEC when he fought against all the basic tenants of things I thought were needed, such as publishing T.A.'d sections as they were agreed upon (thereby reducing the time needed for the pilots to figure out an entire contract in a couple days or weeks before voting), fighting the company harder on grievance issues, stop signing LOA's while you're in negotiations, stop signing CRAP LOA'S without a period of comment for the pilot group (there are 2 right off the top of my head that are absolute sh*t), the list goes on and on.

As you know, I agree with you on several of these issues and disagree on a few others, but laying all of the blame on Wake isn't exactly productive. Wake may run things on a day-to-day basis as the Chairman, but these major decisions are actually made by the status reps that are the voting members of the MEC. The blame (or credit, depending on how you feel) should be placed with them. Wake doesn't even get a vote. All of these issues were discussed and voted on at the MEC level. If you don't like the decisions that are being made, then you need to replace the status reps with people that agree with your positions. Any member can start the recall process.

P.S. I miss having you over at Airlinkpilots.com! It's kind of boring without these debates.

 

[Lear70]

You're right that you can't leave pay aside, but you have to alter the way you think of pay. The pay rate table isn't what's important. The W-2 is what really matters. What you want is to get the best possible combination of work rules and pay rates so that the W-2 is industry-leading. That is our goal, and that is also what XJT managed to do. Their pay rate table may not be the best in the industry, but ALPA's E & FA department calculated that XJT's contract yields the best W-2 in the industry. You have to look at the entire CBA, not just Section 3.

I'm glad XJT was able to get the best overall CBA according to ALPA. I still wouldn't have signed it, but I know where my minimum income is in order to make this a CAREER, and not just a job, and it's about 20% higher than I made last year at PCL, approximately $80k a year for CA's (not including per diem) with 6% raises per year, 3% for longevity, 3% for COLA, and a 10% 401k match.

I hope you guys get it!

We have just as much support available to us as XJT did. We work constantly with Dan F. and have also worked quite a bit with another ALPA attorney named Jim J. We will also have increasing support as we move into the sections that will need more attorney-specific help. We also have constant support from E & FA, R & I, Aeromedical, Legal, Representation, etc... during the negotiating process. The idea you have about just 3 pilot negotiators and DF sitting in a room is not accurate. And to be clear, the company isn't using professional negotiators either. At the table for the company are Buddy C., Doug S., Barney, and their attorney Joe M. who doesn't really say much during negotiations.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the PCL NC is bad. Quite the opposite, those guys seem pretty d*mn sharp, and I especially admire the knowledge and ability of GB.

That said, Buddy C has been negotiating pilot contracts for YEARS. If you don't see him as a professional negotiator, you'd better re-evaluate your stance. Don't know much about Doug's background, and their attorney will probably become more of a factor towards the end.

That would be a disaster in all but a few sections like Scope. In Scheduling, Hours of Service, General, Definitions, etc... it is very important to have pilots doing the negotiating because we are the only ones that really understand how these things all fit together in our daily lives at work. Our NC members have gone through extensive training from professional negotiators to prepare them for this process.

Extensive training for a couple days in Herndon is all fine and good, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about this one. Professional negotiators are worth their weight in gold, and with pilots present at all times, they can keep disaster from happening and let the negotiator do his/her job.

As you know, I agree with you on several of these issues and disagree on a few others, but laying all of the blame on Wake isn't exactly productive. Wake may run things on a day-to-day basis as the Chairman, but these major decisions are actually made by the status reps that are the voting members of the MEC.

Not exactly. The majority of the crap LOA's came just before PCL went to an LEC structure, and even he will admit privately that they were a disaster.

I just don't think he should be leading the MEC. As much as Suker and I disagreed about things, I trust his leadership more to be completely honest with you. Would be a perfect combination for him and Hunter to be leading things.

The blame (or credit, depending on how you feel) should be placed with them. Wake doesn't even get a vote. All of these issues were discussed and voted on at the MEC level. If you don't like the decisions that are being made, then you need to replace the status reps with people that agree with your positions. Any member can start the recall process.

Wake may not get a "vote", but Wake can and does initiate discussions on LOA's with the company, negotiates those LOA's without the LEC members present, and can present whatever information to them he wants to get things done his way.

It's so funny that the LEC pushed MemRat for any LOA affecting QOL but there have been several that have affected a large number of pilots (over 10% of the group qualifies), but no MemRat because, as Wake says, "It would negate my ability to negotiate with the company if we had to put everything up for a vote".

I don't like one person doing all the negotiating for things like that and the LEC members only hear what he tells them after the fact.

P.S. I miss having you over at Airlinkpilots.com! It's kind of boring without these debates.

Heh heh... That's OK. We can do them here. Don't have to worry about my anti-MEC beliefs being deleted here.

Hope all is well!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I'm glad XJT was able to get the best overall CBA according to ALPA. I still wouldn't have signed it, but I know where my minimum income is in order to make this a CAREER, and not just a job, and it's about 20% higher than I made last year at PCL, approximately $80k a year for CA's (not including per diem) with 6% raises per year, 3% for longevity, 3% for COLA, and a 10% 401k match.

Interesting...XJT got 11% raises for Captain on DOS and 5% raises per year and 9% 401k for those under 10 years and 11% and more for over 10 years. That said, I simply don't see any pilot group flying 50 seat jets getting a 20% raises on date of signing any time soon and it isn't because the companies can't afford it or because pilots aren't worth it...it is because of the NMB situation as well as the CPA deals these companies sign. Now...if PCL pilots were willing to give back all work rules in exchange for 20%, it might happen, but I know the PCL pilots aren't going to do that.

That said, Buddy C has been negotiating pilot contracts for YEARS. If you don't see him as a professional negotiator, you'd better re-evaluate your stance. Don't know much about Doug's background, and their attorney will probably become more of a factor towards the end.

Smart pilots at the table will not be outclassed by management no matter how long they have been doing this stuff for. Just remember it all boils down to leverage...that is ultimately what produces a better (or worse) provision or agreement.

Extensive training for a couple days in Herndon is all fine and good, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about this one. Professional negotiators are worth their weight in gold, and with pilots present at all times, they can keep disaster from happening and let the negotiator do his/her job.

It isn't about 3 days in Herndon. I've done those 3 days. Smart pilots combined with the right resources are just as good as management...but as I said above, and this comes from experience, it all boils down to leverage.

-Neal