Alpa Strikes Back!!!

[BluDevAv8r]

Well, there's a couple issues in there. First, I don't like profit-sharing. It's too easy for a management group to find ways to "reinvest" in capital spending items and there went the "profit". It really depends on how the profit-sharing is set up and how it's calculated. If it's done so that the company has to pay based on pure revenue / operating expense, regardless of other non-operating expenses, then I MIGHT sign off on it. Otherwise, no way.

Most profit sharing plans are based off EBITDAR. Obviously you want to run it up the income statement as high as possible. That said, taking our debt to finance transactions won't really affect the profit sharing plan except for the interest expense line. Lastly, one should get used to variable compensation...it is unfortunately the way of the future in this business.

Second, in the last 6 months I was at PCL, I deadheaded exactly ONCE on a 2:30 trip BOS-MEM. Cost me 1:15 in deadhead pay not to have 100% deadhead pay. A VERY FEW people deadheaded every other leg, but with 100% deadhead credit PCL would simply stop making trips like that. Like I said, if deadhead credit ends up being 10 hours a year (3 times what my average was), I'd still come out ahead making $5 or $10 more in hourly rates.

That is good then...as long as DH isn't an issue in how they build the trips, then 50% isn't that huge a deal.

I'd like to see how you did that, MORE than 30% in soft credits doesn't sound any way attainable unless you bid JUST to make that happen (bid trips with deadheads every other leg, bid trips with 14 hour duty days but only 2-3 hours of flying, and fly 18-20 days a month).

XJT doesn't have much DH built into the trips. They usually pop up in trips as trips are split throughout the month for 30/7 issues, etc. The smart pilot knows how to get paid the most for working the least. There are many ways to do that in our contract and it isn't just DH time. Picking up a trip on a day off is one way. Any day of flying is at least 3:45 if you pick it up on a day off. So if I pick up a 2 hour turn it is 3:45 or if I pick up a 1 hour flight to the overnight then fly back early in the morning it is 7:30 for doing 2 hours of flying. What if I am scheduled to fly 29 hours in 7 days over 5 days (4-day trip and a day trip which is a 6 hour turn) and then go over on the first 4 day trip by an hour...Scheduling then drops my 6 hour turn but I still get paid for it. What do I do the next day on my "real" day off? Pick up another turn. Domicile rest violations are also pay protected. At XJT pilots are paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater on a segment basis. That paid out about 5-10 hours per month right there in soft time. I was JM'd zero times in 2005 but reassigned into a day off twice which can pay out huge if you know what you are doing. The list goes on but basically if you know the contract you can make it work for you. So yes, 30% soft time absolutely attainable.

Again, I agree with you that the contract should be WRITTEN by pilots, but it should be NEGOTIATED by professional negotiators with pilots in attendance who can counsel the negotiators when the company starts trying to twist and screw with things.

I touch on this in my previous post but having "been there done that" I think I will continue to go on record saying that having the right pilots at the table doing the negotiating with the professionals' assistance is the way to go.

As far as a $10 an hour raise on DOS, I don't see any reason why not when the company makes as much as they do and it's about 1.5% to 2% of their profit margin. Time for them to share.

THAT'S THE WHOLE PROBLEM WITH REGIONAL PILOTS!!

I'm not trying to pick on you or be an a*s, really I'm not, but that really pisses me off when people say that.

Pay SHOULD be purely a function of market conditions and company profitability. Pinnacle is EXTREMELY PROFITABLE. They have shown NO signs of losing the business (yet), and even if they do take a hit on aircraft (NWA reduces them in size), they'll STILL be extremely profitable.

WHEN and IF PCL loses the RFP and drops below 79 aircraft (the CEO's self-described minimum operational size for "guaranteed profitability"), THEN I'll reduce my expectations.

Until then, I don't give a crap if a company is Ma and Pa's flying service or if they're Southwest. Revenue is revenue is revenue, I don't give a carved rat's a*s where it comes from as long as it keeps coming. If regional pilots would realize that VERY BASIC BUSINESS ECONOMIC PRINCIPAL, maybe they'd start to dig out of the hole they're in.

Good luck to you, you DEFINITELY have a better contract than PCL, I just think you honestly could have done about 5-10% better than you did on rates. Just my .02 cents,,,

I no longer work at XJT but being that I was the Chairman of the XJT NC at the time and dealt with the NMB as well as the CEO of XJT, I am pretty comfortable saying we weren't going to get another penny out of the company without getting a release to a strike (which wasn't going to happen due to the NMB situation at the time...and that hasn't changed either). And that is all what this boils down to - LEVERAGE. The NMB holds the key to PCL's ultimate leverage point...the threat of a cooling-off period and job action. Why do you think ASA doesn't have an agreement yet? Same thing...those guys have been in negotiations for almost 4 years!

-Neal

 

[Lear70]

XJT doesn't have much DH built into the trips. They usually pop up in trips as trips are split throughout the month for 30/7 issues, etc. The smart pilot knows how to get paid the most for working the least.

I agree, that's why I made as much as I did but DIDN'T HAVE FEWER DAYS OFF! By your method below, it sounds like you have to sacrifice days off for pay, not a great plan.

There are many ways to do that in our contract and it isn't just DH time. Picking up a trip on a day off is one way. Any day of flying is at least 3:45 if you pick it up on a day off. So if I pick up a 2 hour turn it is 3:45 or if I pick up a 1 hour flight to the overnight then fly back early in the morning it is 7:30 for doing 2 hours of flying.

7:30 for 2 days of flying? Fu*k that.

What if I am scheduled to fly 29 hours in 7 days over 5 days (4-day trip and a day trip which is a 6 hour turn) and then go over on the first 4 day trip by an hour...Scheduling then drops my 6 hour turn but I still get paid for it. What do I do the next day on my "real" day off? Pick up another turn.

Again, fewer days off for another 3 or 4 hours. No, thanks.

At XJT pilots are paid scheduled or actual, whichever is greater on a segment basis. That paid out about 5-10 hours per month right there in soft time.

Like I said, about 10% in soft credits, and that's about as much as you will REALISTICALLY expect to get with trip and duty rigs if you're not willing to give up 1/4 of your days off for more money.

So yes, 30% soft time absolutely attainable.

If you're willing to give up your QOL to do it, sure it is, you can say that just about anywhere that has premium pay.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I agree, that's why I made as much as I did but DIDN'T HAVE FEWER DAYS OFF! By your method below, it sounds like you have to sacrifice days off for pay, not a great plan.

Well it all depends what the starting point is, right? What if I started at 16 days off and 90 hours of credit? And ended up at 13 days off with 110 hours of credit? 13 days off works fine for me since I live in domicile.

7:30 for 2 days of flying? Fu*k that.

Maybe I should have been more clear when I said 7:30 for 2:00 of flying. That would be a 1 hour flight from EWR to ALB at 8pm at night and come back at 7am the next day. It is not a 40 hour TAFB 2-day. More like a stand-up/nap for 7:30 minimum. That is basically 2 days off (but a nap in a hotel room) for 7:30.

Again, fewer days off for another 3 or 4 hours. No, thanks.

Again, not being a commuter, 13 or 14 days off works fine for me. Heck, even 12 is 4 on/3 off. Not many "regular joes" have that schedule. And if all I have to do is fly EWR-BDL-EWR (2 hours round trip) for almost 4 hours of pay (5.6 hours when premium is offered), then I'm all for it. Of course, we also have 7:30 round trip turns in open time as well like IAH-BOI-IAH. Easy money when you leave at 10am and come back 8 hours later.

Like I said, about 10% in soft credits, and that's about as much as you will REALISTICALLY expect to get with trip and duty rigs if you're not willing to give up 1/4 of your days off for more money.

XJT gets about 7% to 10% from its leg by leg (segment pay) provision alone (in other words, you aren't penalized for being early since you are protected to scheduled block but you are paid actual block when over). Daily productivity is about 5:30ish in EWR and IAH right now and much closer to 6:00 per day if you aren't in the bottom 30% of the lines.

If you're willing to give up your QOL to do it, sure it is, you can say that just about anywhere that has premium pay.

Not true. I'm talk about soft time...being paid for flying that you aren't actually doing. Again, if I 30/7 off of a EWR-MCI-EWR day trip and am pay protected for that 6:30 of flight time...how is it losing a day off by then picking up a similar trip the next day (originally scheduled day off). That is double-dipping and basically paying you 200% for the original MCI turn.

Different strokes for different folks I guess. If I had something else going on on the side that paid me more than going to work, I'd be bidding for 16-18 days off (which is attainable at XJT if you know what you are doing in the line improvement window). But never...not once...did I go below the contractually guaranteed minimum of 12 days off.

-Neal

 

[Lear70]

Well it all depends what the starting point is, right? What if I started at 16 days off and 90 hours of credit? And ended up at 13 days off with 110 hours of credit? 13 days off works fine for me since I live in domicile.

That's great that it works for you. If I lived in domicile I'd bid all day trips and be home every night, then 12 or 13 days off wouldn't be so bad. However, you're in the minority; most of us commute, therefore I don't like less than 14 or 15 days off.

Maybe I should have been more clear when I said 7:30 for 2:00 of flying. That would be a 1 hour flight from EWR to ALB at 8pm at night and come back at 7am the next day. It is not a 40 hour TAFB 2-day. More like a stand-up/nap for 7:30 minimum. That is basically 2 days off (but a nap in a hotel room) for 7:30.

No, I understood you perfectly. I'm not willing to give up two days of flying and a night away from home for 7:30 of pay. No matter HOW short the TAFB is. I'd much rather come up on the early flight, fly two days for 12-14 hours of pay, then go home on the last flight, get home by 8 p.m. and be done. Same number of days away from home, almost twice as much money.

Of course, we also have 7:30 round trip turns in open time as well like IAH-BOI-IAH. Easy money when you leave at 10am and come back 8 hours later.

Now THAT would be worth it for me, one day of flying, zero nights away from home, 7:30 of credit, double that if premium pay. Sounds good, no argument, and 200% premium pay should be the standard, that's definitely a plus in your T.A. How often can you get that? Can you get that 200% premium pay just by picking trips up? How about 150%? If so, then THAT would be a good way toward your soft credits that I would appreciate and MIGHT take a little less on pay if I could trip improve with premium pay for the extra picked up.

XJT gets about 7% to 10% from its leg by leg (segment pay) provision alone (in other words, you aren't penalized for being early since you are protected to scheduled block but you are paid actual block when over). Daily productivity is about 5:30ish in EWR and IAH right now and much closer to 6:00 per day if you aren't in the bottom 30% of the lines.

Yes, we have segment pay at airTran and it's FANTASTIC; from what I'm told, it gives about 5-7% override in pay coming in and out of Atlanta, historically one of the highest ground delay hubs in the world. We're also running about 6 hours per day productivity, but so is PCL.

Not true. I'm talk about soft time...being paid for flying that you aren't actually doing.

Yes, and segment pay IS a form of soft time. Getting paid when you underblock IS getting paid for flying you aren't actually doing.

Again, if I 30/7 off of a EWR-MCI-EWR day trip and am pay protected for that 6:30 of flight time...how is it losing a day off by then picking up a similar trip the next day (originally scheduled day off)? That is double-dipping and basically paying you 200% for the original MCI turn.

I missed the part in your original example where the 6 hour EWR-MCI turn was a day trip. The 100% removal pay is definitely a bonus, especially when they're removing you from an FAR conflict and still paying you? Most airlines have some sort of credit for most cancellations, but I can't think of very many that pay for FAR .471 removals.

But like you said: Different strokes for different folks, I'd take the 100% cancellation pay and the extra day off and go home. I like my days off.

If I had something else going on on the side that paid me more than going to work, I'd be bidding for 16-18 days off (which is attainable at XJT if you know what you are doing in the line improvement window). But never...not once...did I go below the contractually guaranteed minimum of 12 days off.

12 days off is barely livable for me; anything less is pure hell. 14 days off is my happy place and I have NO intention of working more than that if I can credit 90-100 hours a month, no matter what it pays.

I should probably clarify here that I took the time to go back in my logbook and bank reports and saw how many hours were premium pay (ext / ja) and how many days I honestly flew less than a trip/duty rig would have paid; it was VERY minimal. On an average yearly block of 900-1000 hours, I was Junior Assigned the MOST in 2005, for a total of 32 hours, compensated on existing premium pay of 125 to 150%. The extra 50-75% would have credited me an extra 2% on my W-2. Trip and Duty rigs (when not on reserve) would have credited me less than 1% extra on our existing trip construction.

That's why I say I would want more money on hourly rates; I just never see enough of the cancellation pay, ext/JA premium pay, or trip/duty rigs at either PCL or airTran that clearly give a 15-20% override. Although a FEW would benefit on some select trips, by and large as regional pilots we already fly more than those rigs would give the MAJORITY of the pilot group and I would rather have a 10% in hourly rates than a 3% in soft credit.

The only way it would benefit us is if the company suddenly hired a lot more people and spread out the flying and made the trips like the old legacy carrier trips (two legs, 18 hour overnight, 1 leg, 35 hour overnight, etc) or the company suddenly understaffed the airline so dramatically that EXT/JA became a daily event (like PCL did for 4-6 months back in 2005).

These are great discussions by the way, and hopefully give the pilots at both carriers (PCL and AirTran which are both in Section 6) some food for thought. Do the math, guys! Go back in your yearly W-2's and your logbooks (I always track duty time for checking my pay banks) and apply multiple scenarios of trip and duty rigs and see which ones, if any, would benefit you. Then go back and see how many times you were JA'd or EXT'd and see how a 200% override would affect you differently than the 125/150% you already get (PCL pilots).

Once you've done that, email your NC. Tell them what you've found and what you want in YOUR T.A.

Good luck to ya'!