ALPA Scab-list

[bobbysamd]

Unions

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

We had a good discussion about this issue a little over two years ago, Pub, in which you participated, on this thread. Of course, two good treatises on pilot unions are Flying the Line, Volumes I and II.

Workers initially formed guilds. They then formed unions to counteract employer abuse of employees. The need for unions is just as valid now as it was when the first unions were formed in the 1800s. Maybe even more so, because the conservative shift that began twenty-five years ago eroded the unions' power in favor of employers. Although the law has recognized that employees have certain types of property rights in their employment, when it comes right down to it employees have no arsenal at all to deal with unfair and abusive employers. In other words, about the only way you can deal with an unfair employer is to quit your job.

Finally, pilot unions were not formed for captains who make $300K a year to fly $200M aircraft across the sky, they were formed, in part, to ensure they were adequately rested and were safe to fly their $200M aircraft, and the aircraft themselves were safe to fly.

 

[Standby 1]

I feel sorry for the many controllers that were fired by President Reagan also...life goes on and it is no fun sometimes.

I, too, have no dog in this fight. And although I am ferverently pro-union, the controller strike was close to home for me and brings up an interesting union issue. PATCO, as the strike approached, insisted they had enough in the coffers to pay $XXXX to each striking controller for XXX amount of time. One quick look at their financial sheet showed that this was NOT the case. The controllers who crossed the line knew that and saw the failure of the action before it even began. How accountable is a union to be honest and forthright with it's members and not get caught up in the emotional politics of dealing with management? We are always telling each other to do the research for ourselves and not be led like sheep (this goes for any debatable issue)....does it matter in the case of union actions? Does a search for facts matter if you are honor-bound to go along with the rest of the crowd?

Again, for those who just skimmed my post and missed the part where I stated that I am "ferverently pro-union," do not mistake this post for anti-union rhetoric! Just simply some food for thought regarding some issues I have kicked around for years.


Carry on......

 

[Publishers]

nuance

In most cases you will find that the union negotiators want to settle just as bad as the companies. Strikes and actions tend to deplete their reserves and they are extremely protective of those funds.

They will go for the 50.1% as well as the management.

'How accountable is a union to be honest and forthright with it's members and not get caught up in the emotional politics of dealing with management? We are always telling each other to do the research for ourselves and not be led like sheep (this goes for any debatable issue)....does it matter in the case of union actions? Does "

This was Eastern. It was an ego battle and one that was not winnable. The pilots may have thought that they could force Lorenzo out but it was a terrible mis-judgement. Like the ATC strike, you have to be able to judge the other side and see how they will react and what cards they have. Look at A and B scale as the perfect example of what I mentioned about you sacrifice the newly employed and the yet to be employed and give the senior 50.1% something they can live with, you are going to have a contract.

Bobby, we can talk about safety and work rules all day long, you do not need a national union to do that. Why did the teamsters go after Netjets, how about because they saw money for their coffers not because they wanted to improve the poor working pilots plight.

The other thing is that all those pilot shortages that Kit used to talk about -- when they were true, the industry would have still dealt with the safety issues.

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

 

[Timebuilder]

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

Bingo.

A similar concept would result if we all had to write a check at the end of the year, or even every quarter, for the full amount of our tax debt. People would be astounded as to haow much in dollars really leaves their hands so Robert Byrd can be re-elected.

When I don't feel I am being treated fairly, I DO leave that job. I have found it is much more satisfying to work for myself than Mel Karmazin, anyway.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot unions

Bobby, we can talk about safety and work rules all day long, you do not need a national union to do that . . . .

I would submit that you do.

Go back to 1932, when E.L. Cord, the direct spiritual ancestor of Frank L. and Frank O. (intentional), tried to cut his pilots' salaries. He said he would bargain, but, instead, Cord locked out his pilots and hired replacements. In the meantime, Cord operated unsafe equipment. It took ALPA intercession to put a stop to Cord. George E. Hopkins, Flying the Line (1982), p. 43-53.

You give airlines and most other businesses their druthers, and instead of operating to earn money to pay their people well and treat them fairly they will operate at a minimum level to pay their people the least and treat them like serfs on a manor. Unions are far from a perfect system, but they can at least take steps to make companies play fairly.

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

What an asinine statement. I love it how bosses believe that payroll comes out of their own pockets. It most certainly does not. Payroll comes out of the company's pocket and is a cost of doing business.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Guys, look at airlines like Gulfstream. Mesa. Look at what's happened at Delta...and they have a union! Do you honestly think that airline managements would show restraint in screwing their employees if there were no unions? Are you kidding me?

...we can talk about safety and work rules all day long, you do not need a national union to do that.

Better read up on ALPA history: saffety is precisely why they came into being. Nobody else was doing anything about it!

 

[Timebuilder]

The truth of the Del Smith quote is not that it was his money specifically, but that most people who work for a company have no ideas about their business that extend beyond their pay stub. If they had to make payroll, using the company's money, it would be a revelation for most people. Even a shock.

The better idea is for workers to refuse to offer their services to unsafe or otherwise unscupulous operators. If no one agrrees to work, then an operator is forced to change. Sure, that's a utopian view of capitalism, I admit. Pilots can and do make an impact on carriers and their management styles. Happy pilots attract more pilots. It's a matter or word of mouth and industry reputation that can make or break a carrier from the labor cost standpoint.

Just as we like to inform new pilots about PFT and the carriers who rely on it, we can also draw conclusions about which carriers are safe and pay a decent wage. Southwest is a good example of some of the best labor relations you can have. Rather than the adversarial relationship established by pilot union leadership over the past thirty years, Southwest shows that a good relationship can exist with pay and safety that are fair and reasonable in a competitive market. If owning an airline was a wise investment (which it very likely is not) then the most succcessful airline in the world would be one owned by workers who banded together and pooled their monies and made the wisest choices possible in the forming and running of their airline. Most people with a specialty like flying airplanes lack the special education, connections with finance, and business expertise necessary to run an airline. Now if no pilot group has successfully pooled their resources and produced the world's best and most profitable airline for whom they can work, then how can another pilot group have the business sense to know the difference between being paid fairly and bleeding their company dry to the point of being noncompetitive?

When ALPA started it did indeed make a signifigant impact on raising safety. There is no denying that. But, as the od saw goes, that was then and this is now. The safety aspect has been taken over by the FAA. What was once an effective group focused on safety has become marginalized by their own shortsightedness with respect to smaller aircraft, and by the market with respect to discount operators that have brought wages down to earth and placed them on a level playing field with earnings.

ALPA is not the only union group who is behind the power curve. Take the trade unions in Philadelphia, for example. Often, the Pennsylvania Convention Center, a very impressive structure on the site of the old Reading Railroad train shed, is empty. Why? Convention planners have learned that the trade unions here are predatory, and can take the cost of a convention and, are you ready for this, nearly TRIPLE the cost of the event. So, convention events are going elsewhere. Smooth, Philly. Very smooth.

SAG and AFTRA exist only in a handful of cities, where they once ruled entire networks. Viacom, the company that owns MTV, is 100% a non-union company.

The truth is that people are now able to have jobs, fly airplanes, make movies, produce TV and radio, all without unions. They aren't getting voted in. People are figuring out that unions are shrinking, and it is unwise to shrink with them. If everyone voted in a union in every walk of life, competition could be maintained. If people are already happy, like at the ABC affiliate in Philly, they never vote in the union. Be competitive, have a job. Be uncompetitive nowdays, and you can find yourself saying "I had a union job."

How many pilots are saying that right now?

 

[Typhoon1244]

If people are already happy, like at the ABC affiliate in Philly, they never vote in the union.

Companies tend to have the unions they deserve. Anytime you find an extremely militant labor organization (Northwest, for example), you can bet it was generated by unfriendly management.

I've noticed Southwest's union seems pretty docile...could it be that they know how to treat employees over there?

 

[vetteracer]

Very interesting thread and some very good discussion.

I have never belonged to a union. Have never been in a position where I had to make a choice. Also I have never flown 121 or airlines.

I studied business in college and of course studied unions. It would seem today that many unions don’t have the argument they had 50 years ago. The FAA police operations with a tight fist, as they generate revenue from the fines. I think in many forms the government has taken over the SOME issues of the worker and of course are profiting from fines, tax etc. I have seen and studied many companies that are driven and destroyed by parasite leaders.

A good example is a local energy company. They were a very profitable publicly traded company that paid a good dividend and had a good track record. Enter new CEO and others that made commissions and options from brokering the buyouts of other companies. You guessed it. They spent the company broke so they could make 1% on the sale.

It will be interesting to see if this tightening of corporate responsibility will have any impact on the future of how companies are run. I think that CEO etc should be responsible to the point of criminal prosecution if things go badly in the event of blatant pocket filling. It is criminal to see them walk out the door with a bag of money telling the press that "well, I guess I was just not a smart leader". Too bad it is not a crime to be stupid.

Mark

 

[de727ups]

Now that's a laugh..

I like your posts, in general, but...

"The safety aspect has been taken over by the FAA."

Uhhh....Ummm. Geezzzz. I hope this never is accepted as the stats quo. The federalies are much less effective than unions in improving the lot of the average line puke when it comes to safety...IMHO.

 

[Publishers]

Del Smith

In his case, it was truely his pocket. He ownes or at least did when I was there 100% of the company. He founded it, he made it what it is, and he has no stockholders. What he was pointing out was that you would have a deeper appreciation for the difficulty of running these companies if you were making the decisions with your money.

As to the safety issues, I think in this kind of industry, that has to be federally regulated and not a union issue. It has to be across the board and a fair playing field must result that is safe for the consumers and is not influenced by union or non union issues.

I am currently writing a safety program for a carrier that is more stringent than the FAA and more customized for the individual situation. Like strikes, most smaller companies cannot survive a significant accident in todays legal environment.

Southwest does just fine with a union. That said however, the fact is that they do a bunch of things right besides that. In the airline business, you have to get a good many things right to eek out an acceptable profit. The pilots or any individual labor group are but a small part of these many issues. Some of the moronic posts on here are examples of people who the airline that they worked for would not have hired them had they an inkling of how self centered, self serving, and basic decency lacking they were.

 

[The Original SCAB Tracker]

That is right I am a real human being and I get pissed off. My fight has nothing to do with money. I have been fighting union attitudes since the day a guy smashed my windshield with a baseball bat. He wasn't with ALPA but with the teamsters. I was just trying to get to the dock to get an AOG part to my airplane in Chicago. Since them I have wanted nothing more than the break the backs of the stupidity that happens at unions. I am not againt unions per say but I am totally against the discrimination and the garbage that goes on. BTW those that are stuck at Miami her are stuck because we like it. Miami Air may not pay quite a good as other carriers but it is more than made up for in other ways. Big is big, but small is good.

 

[The Original SCAB Tracker]

Turbo,
Jack London says hi!

 

[POWDERFINGER]

LMFAO lots of union hate in here. You folks who hate the unions so much, or value docile unions, you're all probably for all of the "Right to Work" laws in those f*cked up red states. Amiright or amiright??

Airlines (and freight haulers too!) first unionized because the fat ass owners were 1) not sufficiently prioritizing worker safety, and 2) not fairly sharing the benefits of the labor.

Perhaps number 3, especially for pilots, is a union like ALPA has resources (and lawyers) to get a more fair shake in the blame game following a crash, when the carriers and manufacturers are more than happy to blame everything on the pilots.

If you want an honest union, that will be on you, to put good people into important positions, and not tolerate sellouts.

Perhaps none of this really matters. Look at trends since the era of union busting Reaganism began. The fat ass owner class is reaping more and more profits from labor, while workers' compensation has stalled. All correlating with diminished power of collective bargaining.

Some advice: learn to say, "F*ck you, pay me -and schedule with safety."

The way it is going, the billionaire's kids are going to own all of the houses and yours will end up living with you, under a bridge.

 

[The Original SCAB Tracker]

LMFAO lots of union hate in here. You folks who hate the unions so much, or value docile unions, you're all probably for all of the "Right to Work" laws in those f*cked up red states. Amiright or amiright??

Airlines (and freight haulers too!) first unionized because the fat ass owners were 1) not sufficiently prioritizing worker safety, and 2) not fairly sharing the benefits of the labor.

Perhaps number 3, especially for pilots, is a union like ALPA has resources (and lawyers) to get a more fair shake in the blame game following a crash, when the carriers and manufacturers are more than happy to blame everything on the pilots.

If you want an honest union, that will be on you, to put good people into important positions, and not tolerate sellouts.

Perhaps none of this really matters. Look at trends since the era of union busting Reaganism began. The fat ass owner class is reaping more and more profits from labor, while workers' compensation has stalled. All correlating with diminished power of collective bargaining.

Some advice: learn to say, "F*ck you, pay me -and schedule with safety."

The way it is going, the billionaire's kids are going to own all of the houses and yours will end up living with you, under a bridge.

Well said brother!