ALPA Scab-list

[Typhoon1244]

...I didn't call [Publishers] a scab because we "happen to disagree." It was because [he] clearly stated that [he] would cross a line if [he] didn't "agree with the fight or if you didn't like the chances of success." There's a difference.

My father--whom, as Publishers has pointed out, I've mentioned before--was strongly opposed to a strike by Eastern's pilots, and he voted against it. He felt it was the wrong way to fight Lorenzo, and he didn't think it could succeed.

But he didn't cross the line. Never.

Call it what you want--honor, integrity, brotherhood. It's what scabs lack.

 

[Publishers]

Hugh

I did not say that I would cross the line, I said I have no interest in employment where being in the union is required. Secondly, that I am not condeming those that do because I have seen numerous occassions where people are asked to fight someone elses fight. Thirdly, I have been at this long enough to know that the good contract is the one that gets 50.1% of the votes regardless of what that does to the other 49.9% of the people involved. That last is the reason that pay remains low on the bottom and heavy on top. Senior guys control. The two groups that always end up with the shaft are the "newly employed" and the "yet to be employed."

 

[TonyC]

Thirdly, I have been at this long enough to know that the good contract is the one that gets 50.1% of the votes regardless of what that does to the other 49.9% of the people involved.

If that's not the sentiment of scab-loving management, I don't know what is.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Maybe I am totally wrong but here is the bottom line if I had worked there. You want me to risk my families income and my career to not cross a line that I disagree with totally and think has no chance of winning, which then does not work and the company and my career cease to exist, and, then you condem me for not following you on this suicidal path. Not where I come from.

Sounds like the words of someone who would cross to me. Care to reconsider your last statement?

 

[TurboS7]

I wouldn't say too much there ex-military hot shot, until you have been there done that and proved yourself. At EAL most of the young ex-military guys did cross and went for that quick upgrade from FE to Captain.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

At EAL most of the young ex-military guys did cross and went for that quick upgrade from FE to Captain.

They didn't cross because they were ex-military, they crossed because they were scabs.

 

[bobbysamd]

Freedom quasi-scabs

[A]ny Freedom Air pilot is welcome on my jumpseat.

In no way would they be welcome on mine, if I had one.

I had met two of the original Freedom pilots several years ago. One was the former Mesa Chief Pilot who probably threw in the trash my letters requesting reconsideration of my application. I met this individual a few years later when I joined MAPD. He was a check airman and DE who gave Mesa pay-for-interview ATP practicals. Suffice it to say he passed some - and he failed some. I did not discuss with him my letters, but it was interesting to meet this individual in person.

The other was an ERAU-Prescott training manager. Being an ERAU training manager was a highly political position and he was a real politician. I was a stage check pilot, and we got crosswise because I failed a student on his oral. The student complained and he hauled me into his office. Suffice it to say the student did not meet PTS standards.

I was not surprised when I saw both names on the Freedom pilot list. If either of these folks had wanted to jumpseat on my airplane, I would tell them to go jump in the lake.

 

[Ted Striker]

I wouldn't say too much there ex-military hot shot, until you have been there done that and proved yourself. At EAL most of the young ex-military guys did cross and went for that quick upgrade from FE to Captain.

I wouldn't say too much there, scab-hot shot. You've already proved yourself to be a leechy, theiving scab.

 

[TurboS7]

I ran a 135 that was my own for 10 years. I came to hate pilots, I am sure that you would be right at the top of the list Striker. Typhoon at least has a reason to talk, his Dad may a decision and stuck with it to the end. Obviously being part of that decision he felt the impact of it more than any of you can know. Many guys didn't and they came across the line in droves after a few weeks. I am sure that in a long strike that one would see the same at any major airline.Comair was the exception as they had nothing to loose.

 

[Freight Dog]

I am sure that in a long strike that one would see the same at any major airline.Comair was the exception as they had nothing to loose.

Comair pilots had nothing to lose?? You walk, you lay it ALL on the line... and Comair pilots had one of the fastest-growing if not THE fastest growing airline in the nation, and they laid it all out for the injustice that regional pilots face even today. God bless them for it! You owe them an apology.

rEAL pilots laid it all out to support IAM strike. Bigger issues were at stake.. namely getting rid of Lorenzo. UAL pilots laid it all out on the line too. The thing is... more people crossing the line means a longer strike, means less benefits to potentially be reaped from a strike, means management doesn't take their unionized workers seriously if they buckle when push comes to shove... and who ultimately loses? EVERY worker, scab or not.

Shortsightedness at its best... back-stabbing at its worst...

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I ran a 135 that was my own for 10 years. I came to hate pilots

That explains a lot.

 

[Ted Striker]

I ran a 135 that was my own for 10 years. I came to hate pilots, I am sure that you would be right at the top of the list Striker.

You sound like you would be a tremendous boss. I can't imagine why the relationship was so bad, couldn't have been the "leadership", could it have. As long as you keep opening your mouth on issues such as scabs and strikes, this is the kind of response you will get from me. If I was at the top of your scumbag employee list, I would think I was doing something right just because you despised it so much. When you talk about Typhoon and his Dad, do you think about what people like you did to their families and kids like his? Just like there are no ex-Marines, there are no former SCABS.

 

[TurboS7]

Only told half the truth....I hate pilots but I love people and since they tend to be the same the latter wins. I feel sorry for the many controllers that were fired by President Reagan also...life goes on and it is no fun sometimes.I just can't figure out why pilot's are always so insecure......if baffles me.From an aviation business point of view they are the most secure group of the complete employee group, seems strange and I have never figured it out.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Only told half the truth....I hate pilots but I love people and since they tend to be the same the latter wins.

My, but you backpedal fast. Can't say I'm surprised.

...they came across the line in droves after a few weeks.

You're referring to the "Bavis scabs:" guys who paniced when the MEC chairman declared the strike a failure. In the continuum of hatred toward scabs, they earn slightly more respect than the others. It's the off-the-street guys who neither get nor deserve any respect whatsoever.

 

[Timebuilder]

If that's not the sentiment of scab-loving management, I don't know what is.

I don't have a dog in this fight, and for that I am eternally grateful. However, the quote TonyC made reference to is a basic tenent of the labor relations business. You negotiate what you can, and settle on what you can get.

My personal experience with labor, in three unions, is that a union contract becomes the "business plan" in large part, and that business plan serves a fraction of the union members and leaves many under-represented. Often it fails to serve the company at all, and the company is the reason that the members have jobs. The company does not exist because the members have a union.

I think this nuance of business dynamics is often lost on many people. Another lost nuance is the purpose of a union is to try and work against market forces. Aviation is a prime example of that principle.

 

[bobbysamd]

Unions

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

We had a good discussion about this issue a little over two years ago, Pub, in which you participated, on this thread. Of course, two good treatises on pilot unions are Flying the Line, Volumes I and II.

Workers initially formed guilds. They then formed unions to counteract employer abuse of employees. The need for unions is just as valid now as it was when the first unions were formed in the 1800s. Maybe even more so, because the conservative shift that began twenty-five years ago eroded the unions' power in favor of employers. Although the law has recognized that employees have certain types of property rights in their employment, when it comes right down to it employees have no arsenal at all to deal with unfair and abusive employers. In other words, about the only way you can deal with an unfair employer is to quit your job.

Finally, pilot unions were not formed for captains who make $300K a year to fly $200M aircraft across the sky, they were formed, in part, to ensure they were adequately rested and were safe to fly their $200M aircraft, and the aircraft themselves were safe to fly.

 

[Standby 1]

I feel sorry for the many controllers that were fired by President Reagan also...life goes on and it is no fun sometimes.

I, too, have no dog in this fight. And although I am ferverently pro-union, the controller strike was close to home for me and brings up an interesting union issue. PATCO, as the strike approached, insisted they had enough in the coffers to pay $XXXX to each striking controller for XXX amount of time. One quick look at their financial sheet showed that this was NOT the case. The controllers who crossed the line knew that and saw the failure of the action before it even began. How accountable is a union to be honest and forthright with it's members and not get caught up in the emotional politics of dealing with management? We are always telling each other to do the research for ourselves and not be led like sheep (this goes for any debatable issue)....does it matter in the case of union actions? Does a search for facts matter if you are honor-bound to go along with the rest of the crowd?

Again, for those who just skimmed my post and missed the part where I stated that I am "ferverently pro-union," do not mistake this post for anti-union rhetoric! Just simply some food for thought regarding some issues I have kicked around for years.


Carry on......

 

[Publishers]

nuance

In most cases you will find that the union negotiators want to settle just as bad as the companies. Strikes and actions tend to deplete their reserves and they are extremely protective of those funds.

They will go for the 50.1% as well as the management.

'How accountable is a union to be honest and forthright with it's members and not get caught up in the emotional politics of dealing with management? We are always telling each other to do the research for ourselves and not be led like sheep (this goes for any debatable issue)....does it matter in the case of union actions? Does "

This was Eastern. It was an ego battle and one that was not winnable. The pilots may have thought that they could force Lorenzo out but it was a terrible mis-judgement. Like the ATC strike, you have to be able to judge the other side and see how they will react and what cards they have. Look at A and B scale as the perfect example of what I mentioned about you sacrifice the newly employed and the yet to be employed and give the senior 50.1% something they can live with, you are going to have a contract.

Bobby, we can talk about safety and work rules all day long, you do not need a national union to do that. Why did the teamsters go after Netjets, how about because they saw money for their coffers not because they wanted to improve the poor working pilots plight.

The other thing is that all those pilot shortages that Kit used to talk about -- when they were true, the industry would have still dealt with the safety issues.

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

 

[Timebuilder]

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

Bingo.

A similar concept would result if we all had to write a check at the end of the year, or even every quarter, for the full amount of our tax debt. People would be astounded as to haow much in dollars really leaves their hands so Robert Byrd can be re-elected.

When I don't feel I am being treated fairly, I DO leave that job. I have found it is much more satisfying to work for myself than Mel Karmazin, anyway.

 

[bobbysamd]

Pilot unions

Bobby, we can talk about safety and work rules all day long, you do not need a national union to do that . . . .

I would submit that you do.

Go back to 1932, when E.L. Cord, the direct spiritual ancestor of Frank L. and Frank O. (intentional), tried to cut his pilots' salaries. He said he would bargain, but, instead, Cord locked out his pilots and hired replacements. In the meantime, Cord operated unsafe equipment. It took ALPA intercession to put a stop to Cord. George E. Hopkins, Flying the Line (1982), p. 43-53.

You give airlines and most other businesses their druthers, and instead of operating to earn money to pay their people well and treat them fairly they will operate at a minimum level to pay their people the least and treat them like serfs on a manor. Unions are far from a perfect system, but they can at least take steps to make companies play fairly.

As Del Smith at Evergreen used to say, these people would change their attitude in a minute if they ever had to make a payroll out of their own pocket.

What an asinine statement. I love it how bosses believe that payroll comes out of their own pockets. It most certainly does not. Payroll comes out of the company's pocket and is a cost of doing business.