ALPA Scab-list

[Hugh Jorgan]

My current link to the list is inop. I'm having a hard time finding another good list. The thing ought to be linked right up there on the right ABOVE the FEDEX and SWA Pool links, but in the meantime, would someone please post it. A PM would even suffice for now.

 

[Publishers]

Let's see

Let's see, I called Frank a bottom feeder of distressed properties. That sounds like defending him? The part you may be missing is merely the definition.

Borman was absolutely terrible. He was not staying no matter what. Besides that, I think he grew to hate the place.

Lorenzo was the only one who showed up to even attempt anything. At the time, Eastern was thought of as a dead pig by much of the industry. This all might have happened even sooner but Airbus made them a deal they could not refuse.

Charles Bryan thought that he had Eastern by the balls. He miscalculated what would happen and so did the pilots and flight attendants. The bankruptcy court who I think was headed by Judge Frank Crystal did not have a good many options. One of the miscalculations was that Lorenzo wanted the airline for the reservation system more than the airline itself. If anything that is the irony of it all.

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he and some books give you. I am merely trying to give you the perspective of the business community and other airline people. Like you indicated in your last post, the pilots and mechanics were honoring an IAM strike and trying to force Lorenzo into something. WE AGREE. What I am saying is that this approach was a terrible miscalculation on labors part and made worse because of Bryan.

Frank Lorenzo got what he wanted and left. It was sad.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Publisher,

How could you possibly have anything to do with publishing if you cannot even write a sentence?

 

[enigma]

Pond Scum

Lorenzo was/is pond scum. He bought companies on the backs of their employees, and then raped them. His business practices can NOT be defended.

However, he wasn't the cause of EAL's demise in my opinion. I've flown with EAL pilots, trained with EAL pilots, drank with EAl pilots, read all the books, and was an adult when EAL went down. EAL was severely damaged goods. If you think about it, had EAL been on better financial ground, Lorenzo would have never been able to acquire them.

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

Some of you guys need to step back and seperate yourself from emotions when you discuss Lorenzo.

Now, if some original Continental pilots want to cuss Lorenzo, be my guest.

regards,
enigma

 

[Typhoon1244]

Now I am sure your Dad is a great guy and did a great job. Nevrertheless you have an opinion based on the perspective he...[gave] you.

In other words, my personal experience clouds my perception of events surrounding the Eastern debacle. You may be right.

It's been a long time since we talked about this...tell me, aren't you the guy whose wife was an Eastern flight attendant post-March 1989?

Lorenzo was the vulture picking EALs bones, he wasn't the train that ran over it. EAL was tied to the tracks well before Lorenzo bought in.

I haven't spoken to many people who share your view of Eastern's potential, but I'm going to look into it deeper. Yes, the company was facing grave financial issues, but not insurmountable ones. I still believe that if (1) Lorenzo had left, (2) the mechanics had returned to the bargaining table, or (3) President Bush had appointed a moderator, Eastern would still be flying today.

 

[Publishers]

Scary

Scary, Enigma and I totally agree.

Skydriver-- do you think that I spend much time correcting spelling errors or sentences on these boards?

Typhoon, you can certainly have that opinion, however, if I recall no one else had any real interest which is how Lorenzo got it in the first place. He was the last resort and pretty bright in that he figured he could get the reservation system either way along with some other assets. The machinist and pilots thought they could bring him to his knees. They were wrong.

Yes my current wife was a flight attendant for 18 years at Eastern, did not care about the politics, loved her job and was hurt that it died. Many people that I knew then and now were Eastern personnel, some who struck, some who went back. There were no winners in this pissing match and a horrible out come for some people who had invested their lives in this career.

Maybe I am totally wrong but here is the bottom line if I had worked there. You want me to risk my families income and my career to not cross a line that I disagree with totally and think has no chance of winning, which then does not work and the company and my career cease to exist, and, then you condem me for not following you on this suicidal path. Not where I come from.

 

[stingray]

what the heck

I lost my job as a mechanic for Bar Harbour due to eastern's demise, My father a Eastern 26yr+ Senior Captain on the MEC lost his job also, as he was forced out just before the strike, I personaly felt in the loss and have a little more inside info. Lorenzo took what was a stuggling but very viable company and screwed thousands by selling off the very vauable asset of which other airlines where druling over.
To those who think its OK to cross a line, your fellow pilots are trying to accomplish things like getting better working rules salary or other things to make it a better or fare working enviorment, by crossing the line "IT IS UNPROFESSIONAL" in stabbing the poeple you work with in the back for trying to get u a better work place.
PUBLISHER and the others even if u dont agree with that, go cross a picket line the next time there is one to cross and see what happens to your flying career if u have one. You most likely will never be able to get a decent flying job at any unionized company anywhere. There are many non-union airlines and corporate jobs that will not hire people who have crossed a line.
U need to think LONG TERM not short term. Do u have any clue at all the work enviorment u will be in when a strike is over and u are the one that crossed the picket line and now u have to fly with the guys who where on stike. Yea some of the things that will happen are stupid but it will make the next 20yrs (or however many yrs u have left) of your flying career a living HE##. Your name willmake it to the list forever. I'M sure the stories can be told. Is that worth it.
yes family comes before job, but i would never cross the line

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Maybe I am totally wrong but here is the bottom line if I had worked there. You want me to risk my families income and my career to not cross a line that I disagree with totally and think has no chance of winning, which then does not work and the company and my career cease to exist, and, then you condem me for not following you on this suicidal path. Not where I come from.

Do you realize you have every characteristic of a scab yourself? Perhaps that's why you defend them so. Being a union member is sorta like being an American. You say the pledge, and every four years you vote for who you want to be your leaders. You put your faith in them to represent you. They will never do it completely. Never. But it's part of the warts that come along with democracy. The second there is a fight, and the union as a whole votes to strike, IT BECOMES YOUR FIGHT, whether or not you agree with it or like the chances of it winning. You've already told everyone here of the foundation of your character. I was bummed the other day when someone questioned my character on this board, so you'd think I wouldn't be doing any name-calling. But you sir, are the epitome of scabness. I hope we never have the occasion of being in the same pilot group.

 

[Publishers]

Hugh

Hugh -- where do you think that being in a union is like being an American.

If I want to fly for American Airlines I have to join the union. There is no choice there. Secondly, in the examples I used, you are asking someone who is not in the fight, not in the union involved in the fight, to fight for what someone elses union thinks that they want. Then you want to punish me for not joining in the insanity. What gets me is that in America, anyone would not see the destructiveness of this whole process.

United airlines has proved, although we have a terrible habit of not learning things quickly, that there is not a major carrier today that can even undergo a strike.

As the world economies become merged, there will be fewer and fewer opportunities for unions to have success because the borders of competition will be diminished. As I pointed out earlier, just look at the automobile industry which was better organized and more of a single union situation to see the future. If you will look around, it is barely enough to be non-union as your phone call inquiry may be answered by someone in India and you do not know it.

I cannot have the "characteristics of scabs" because I would never have joined up in the first place. I have no interest in ALPA, APA, etc ever talking on my behalf. Secondly, my family always comes right after God and country and a labor group would not even make the list.

What gets me, I have no problem with those who want such a thing and who join up. Great for them. I think it would work better if they were like APA, company unions rather than industry oriented because there are too many situations that do not cross companies. I mean we call UPS and FEDEX airlines when the aviation is but a smaller part of what they do and their industry is totally different from a United or American.

You can join whatever you want but I have watched the ALPA act for years and they screw their own daily. According to your philosophy, one who is on the screwee side of the ledger and who's career just got slammed should williningly take it because it is for the greater good. Tell that to some other "brothers" on these boards.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hugh, you can't win an argument with an idiot... might as well give it up. Awesome post though!