ALPA Scab-list

[Typhoon1244]

Hugh, well said. [Applause]

Publishers, thank you for illustrating perfectly why labor unions exist.

 

[Publishers]

perhaps

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

I cannot have the "characteristics of scabs" because I would never have joined up in the first place. QUOTE]

According to Merriam-Webster, you do:


Main Entry: [1]scab
Pronunciation: 'skab
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, of Scandinavian origin; akin to Old Swedish skabbr scab; akin to Old English sceabb scab, Latin scabere to scratch —more at SHAVE
Date: 13th century
1 : scabies of domestic animals
2 : a crust of hardened blood and serum over a wound
3 a : a contemptible person b (1) : a worker who refuses to join a labor union (2) : a union member who refuses to strike or returns to work before a strike has ended (3) : a worker who accepts employment or replaces a union worker during a strike (4) : one who works for less than union wages or on nonunion terms

 

[Freight Dog]

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

"Son, are you stupid or something?"

 

[Typhoon1244]

Perhaps you should read some history of unionization. I don't think anyone back then had in mind creating unions for some captains making $300k a year to fly a 200 million dollar aircraft across the sky.

I agree that things have gotten out of hand here and there. Nevertheless, unions are necessary to protect employees from managers who think like you do...people to whom words like "loyalty" and "brotherhood" mean nothing.

 

[Publishers]

Clever

Clever Hugh -- I always admire your wit and thought.

You see I thought that unions were first started in this country to protect among others child laborers and others in servitude. They protected those who could not speak for themselves. Ones who were being forced to work 80 hours a week for peanuts in unsafe environments.

Now I have managed, owned, operated union and non union companies. At one company I was the union negotiator. In none of these companies did I ever have any trouble getting along with or even have any minor disputes with the excellent group of people that worked with me.

One of those companies was a 135 operator, one a major cargo airline. I think the reason that we had success was that I respected them and they respected me. I did not call them idiots or scabs, did not say they were jerks because they thought differently than I.

Somewhere along the line though, this industry got extremely screwed up. It is a complex and difficult business at best and one which has deteriorated over the years. The capital intensity that puts Delta at $26 billion or so in debt makes it almost impossible to get a return on assets. If you understand that pilot unions are not about protecting but merely another big business where money rules all. The unions became just like the companies. The legacy carriers are like dinosaurs just waiting to become extinct. It is a case of suicide not murder.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

At one company I was the union negotiator.

Interesting. What was your bargaining power?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

So which is it? Never would have joined the union, or the union negotiator? Perhaps somewhere between the two lies the truth.

 

[Publishers]

laugh

Just to give you an idea of how some things happen, one company that I served with in another industry had a contract with the operating engineers. It seemed like even though we never had any problems, they would always go on strike. We could never have an agreement.

When I took over, the head of the union pointed out to me that deer hunting season started every year around the same time. The bottom line is that they wanted the week off to go hunting and they were the vocal majority. One of the more vocal and obnoxious guys was one of the union leaders.

In the bathroom during a break, the union negotiator said that we were talking and nothing was going to apease this guy. In prior years, when they went on strike they would leave all their tools and their CB's etc in their company trucks until settling the following week. The bathroom agreement was that we would insist that we were going to the National Mediation Board offices to debate this but they would have to empty all their trucks immediately and remove their possessions from the companies site. This pissed off the non-hunters and they dropped the guy as union rep shortly thereafter. For the next five days, he and I played cards at the mediation board until settling on the deal with the a small detail settled by the outcome of the card game.

I asked and he agreed to change the date of contract renewal to get some small thing to make it look like he got something out of this. He suggested that we fire the one guy and that the union would not protest. He was as big a pain to them as to us.

The outcome was there has never been another strike. The point of this is there can be a great deal of speech around the table but a good deal of the time there are issues and individuals effecting things that are not part of the solution.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Okay, you were the guy on the other side of the table. That explains a lot.

Your example is of frivolous negotiating by a group with what seems to have been a lot of power. Sounds like the company let them get away with a lot of BS, as well as the union membership itself. I expect-no demand...that my elected representatives act to represent our interests as a whole with reason and fairness, not frivolty. I further expect the company I work for take a reasonably hard line to not let our group get away with frivolty. I expect a strike to be the last result of management being unreasonable and clearly unfair. If my company just rolls over to our every whim, how can I expect any sort of job security...I would be at a company with weak management. If they aren't taking a hard line, then how can I expect them to negotiate any other sort of business deals? In the end, collective bargaining can work fine when both parties act responsibly. I believe ALPA (warts and all) in general will represent me with reason. When I'm told by professional negotiators that my company is acting unreasonably and unfairly and that the only answer to a fair deal is a strike and my fellow members vote in agreement with that, I am obligated to strike with them. It's part of the commitment of membership. I hope I NEVER have to be in that position. But again, I beg the question (and you have yet to answer), what is my alternative to this process? I see none. Show me a viable one. Well, at least show me an option other than being a scab. And by the way, I didn't call you a scab because we "happen to disagree". It was because you clearly stated that you would cross a line if you didn't "agree with the fight or if you didn't like the chances of success". There's a difference. I disagree with good, honorable people regularly. It doesn't mean they deserve name-calling. However, when someone tells me they would violate a work action, they are a scab. I'll defer to Merriam-Webster on that one.