ALPA Mesaba MEC Spin for NWA TA

[surplus1]

If there is anything worse than having corrupted Union leadership its having clueless, inexperienced Union leadership.

What do you call it when you have both?

 

[surplus1]

Easy, Francis. I never claimed that this came out of nowhere. I was implying that in recent discussion between the two MEC's they were reitterating brand scope. Notice my comment about the mainline moto. I didn't see, "Gee, guys. We never saw this coming." Just making a point, again, one more time...

Fear not Sharples I wasn't picking on you personally at all, I was picking on your entire group. I wasn't jumping your butt, I was telling all of you at the same time. I did not ask where you had been, I asked where you all had been.

You just said you didn't expect it to happen well, what did you expect? Love and kisses from the NWA MEC?

I don't know how long you have been there personally but a lot of you have been there long enoug. First they were promising you "flow-through" if you would support them in their strike. You did. You got 2 weeks off without pay in exchange and when the strike was over it turned out they didn't have time for that. You were suckered in, starting with your own "leader" who's been sucking up to assorted NW Chairmen and ALPANA officials for at least a decade and the only thing your pilot group has ever gotten out of it was meaningless speeches about unity and family from people like Mugger and DW. Kool Aid, of which you drank every bit.

The NWA MEC represents the interests of NW pilots, not MSA pilots. It doesn't care what happens to you, it never has, and it never will. You are seen as a threat, not "family". Get that through you heads.

They just set you up for more whipsaw with yet another feeder and they don't care. There's nothing wrong with what they're doing, what's wrong is what you haven't been doing, and that is taking care of your own interests. ALPA isn't doing that for you either. There job is to take your money and keep you quiet by feeding you another placebo whenever you get restless. Read the letter you just got from your Chairman. Does he sound like he's upset about what's happened to you? Hell no! The whole thing is an attempt to white wash the NW decision and justify the ALPA position. He chairs one of the most useless and ineffective national committes is all of ALPA; the BSIC, which is nothing more than a tool to keep regional carriers hoping for a kiss while mainline carriers are screwing them.

And you all are by no means the only regional that this has been happening to. The methodology is a plague that affects all regionals. Only one has had the courage to stand up for itself.

Why don't you ask some old Air Willie pilots what the UAL MEC did to them and how much alpa "helped" them with it? Look at the 16-year contract that ALPA "helped" the EGL pilots to achieve and called "industry leading". Look at the flow through that alpa helped them to get. Look at how they fell for the APA "unity" program and marched with the AA pilots, whose leaders were plotting to screw them at the same time. Look at the J4J program and how alpa helped the U MEC to screw the wholly owned's. Look at how alpa supported the scope clause that created "Freedom" and shafted the Mesa pilots, then the TSA pilots, then the CHQ pilots (who don't even belong to ALPA). Look at how alpa suckered the COEX pilots so they could get CAL back into the union, then saddled them with a joint MEC gimmick removing their power to decide their own fate. At least they have had the courage to dump that scheme, but they're still drinking other colors of alpa kool aid. It's not a one carrier scheme it's an epidemic and it works because regional pilots let it happen to themselves.

Like fools we've allowed our own union to descriminate against us and make us into 2nd class citizens eager for whatever crumbs they throw us while they fail to protect our interests and make no effort to resolve the conflicts with the mainline groups. They treat us like red headed step children and what do we do? We elect "leaders" who enjoy being petted and entertained by their masters when they go to DC and Herndon, while the people that elected them get shafted.

I'm not giving you a tongue lashing Sharples, I'm giving it to your entire group and all the others that let the crap continue from a union that "uses" them.

You don't need to PM me for answers. What you need to is open your eyes and protect your own interests instead of expecting alpa or some mainline MEC to take care of you.

I'm sorry if you don't like what I've said but its time to stop beating around the bush and tell it like it is. I challenge you to show me one example of where what I've said is not the truth.

Remember, I'm a regional pilot too and have been a victim of the same thing.

 

[saabservant]

Unfortunately, Surplus1 is right

Although he comes across as a wacko nut, using vulgar visuals to get his points across, it is pretty hard to argue with history.
Most of us hoped, but did not really believe that nwalpa would expend any negotiation leverage to close the door to another airlink partner. That they actually agreed to it with no restrictions to where that partner may operate, and no requirement that it be eventually merged into the existing structure tells us where we stand. Mainline sees us not as partners in the fight against executives but as a threat. All the cumbaya talk is just that.
We should have shut it down to get better pay and rules; the Big Sky scope the mec is so proud of is now meaningless.
As surplus1 has pointed out, brand scope and a family of brand pilots is an idea to protect mainline from the "whores" at their regionals who make so much less.
Flowthroughs are not about career progression, but as furlough protection for mainline.

I know our mec leadership, and i still believe them to be hard-working and dedicated to alpa, because i think they believe we are bound, for good or bad, to nwa alpa and national. As has happened at other brands, we find that the goodwill and desire to help is a one-way street. The pilots at msa are not a bunch who think we should grow until we are bigger than mainline, we just want a reasonable return and a place at the table for the investment we have made for nwa. For this, nwa has now kicked us to the street. Nice solidarity.
We are a band of brothers all right, but only at mainline.

When I was young, and I would protest "not fair!" to my father, he would say,
"I win!" I'd ask why, and he'd say "because of the golden rule- I've got the gold, so I make the rules!". I know he had my best interest at heart.
With alpa, that is not the case. We are not represented equally, and this case proves it. It should'nt have to be this way, but it is fact.

What can we do about this? I don't know what would be effective...a lawsuit? We can't prove damages until they actually bring the carrier into our routes and hubs. A march and protest at their mec meetings? How about an old-fashioned a**-whupping. Maybe its time for less talk and more yelling...

thanks for the lesson, the ky jelly and kneepad references would be funny if they were not so true...

 

[JohnDoe]

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again:

It is not, and will never be, possible for one union to fairly represent different employee groups that each have different contracts (with vastly different payscales), flying different equipment, and all trying to get some of the same flying and growth.

And I have yet to see anybody who thinks it is provide the solution, even after asking.


PS: Avrojetdriver, once again, if you are so sick and tired of your mec and lec, why don't you do something about it? You and your pilot group elected them.......

 

[Redtailer]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

 

[redflyer65]

Airlinks expanding doesn't have a thing to do with it. It's managements fault that those pilots are still on the street. Let's get that straight. How many DC-9's have been retired recently? How much flying lost? Is NWA just replacing the DC-10's or is there a positive hull count with the 330's? That last question I really don't know the answer to, but the other ones I already know.

 

[InclusiveScope]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

Redtailer,
I don't expect any sympathy from you. However, do you really expect the regional ALPA pilots to just accept that the mainline "owns" their flying? Do you really expect us at the regional level to just accept what you hand us? Do you really expect us at the regional level to simply accept this BS about "brand scope"? Do you really expect us at the regional level to believe anything that comes from Woerth/Wychor regarding "brand scope"?

I don't expect sympathy from you, but forgive me if I am not concerned with your job security while I fight for my own against ALPA's predatory bargaining. ALPA created this mess and you want to blame us - that dog won't hunt Redtailer.

 

[Redtailer]

While it may be management's fault, it is the low wages on the RJs that are the culprit.

Actually, the net total of aircraft on NWA property has INCREASED by 5 over the last 2 years. The number of hulls is a farce. To actually understand what is happening you have to look at the utilization.

There is NO doubt that RJs have been taking over -9 routes. Just look at MEM as an example. The lines on the NWA side of the house has continuously decreased over the last few years and have been replaced in MEM by the RJs. Pinnacle has been hiring hundreds over the last few years while hundreds of NWA pilots have been put out of their job all courtesy of mainline NWA financing.

Inclusive Scope,

Do you really expect us at the regional level to just accept what you hand us?

Short answer, YES.

Here is why. NWAC wholly owns NWA Airlines. This is one entity, one corporation, on group.

Whether you like it or not, and this is really important for you to undertand, the Airlinks are nothing more than contractors. Meaning, you cannot demand what flying is given to you. If you are building a house, how can I as a contractor come up to you and say "I demand that I build your roof?" It just doesn't work that way.

ALPA created this mess and you want to blame us - that dog won't hunt Redtailer.

You are absolutely right, ALPA never should have given up any type of turbojet flying. If we could go back in time I am sure that's exactly what would have happened. Then you could fly a SF340 for the rest of your life. Is that better?

But I really want to get this straight, NWA ALPA should not put any restrictions on how many RJs the Airlinks can fly, but we should sacrifice more to stop NWA mgmt from outsourcing the flying to the likes of Mesa, CHQ etc.

You don't see some hypocrisy here?

Here is an idea, and I really mean this. If you are serious about wanting to do all of the RJ flying than your pilot group needs to make the sacrifice to require your MGMT to negotiate with NWAC to be the sole provider of RJ service. Then it will truly belong to you. But are you willing to make that kind of a sacrifice?

Untill you do that, you have NO RIGHT to complain about the circumstances that you find yourself in.

 

[saabservant]

Absolutely amazing all of the Monday morning QB'ing going on here.

I want someone, ANYONE, to tell me exactly how much were the ALPA negotiators to give up to keep all 40 RJs for the current Airlinks..

Another 5% pay cut?

No wait, how about 25% less sick and vacation time.

Oh, I know. Just let the airlinks fly the DC9s.

Point is, ALL of the pain is being felt throughout the NWA pilot group and the Airlinks as a whole are STILL EXPANDING with NWA pilots on the street! This agreement does not affect current staffing levels at the airlinks and it does not affect pay.

Pardon me if I don't have any sympathy.

It is NOT about demanding additional aircraft!
You seem to suffer from the delusion that we at the airlinks want to take over everything, which is pure B.S. We are not the enemy!
This is about protecting what we are currently doing against an outsource threat! Wake the he** up!

The ability to quickly step into a market with airlink support in place is a good business decision, but not without restrictions. Do you think mainline is exempt
from a further loss of dc-9 flying?

About your pay cut and (horrors) new contribution to health care, tell a six-year saab fo making 30,000 about it, and he will smile in amazement. Everyone has a little pain here...
And who let all this happen? Senior alpa pilots, who sold out eveyone junior to protect their pay and pensions. The scope clauses? An utter failure.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Redtailer,

This attitude towards the RJ pilots and regional pilots in general is very becoming of you. Let me throw it back at you and say I hope you are forced to take MORE concessions, I hope more mainline pilots are furloughed and you guys give another 30% in pay-cuts; then we can listen to more of your complaining on how it's the regional pilots fault. I'm sorry you can't make it in this world on $93,000 a year, but hey - whatever !! Stop living beyond your means. If you can't take it, quit !!

Maybe when the mainline redtailers realize they've had enough, then we'll all come together as a REAL union and stand up against management and say 'NO MORE'. No More whipsaw and No More of this moronic ALPA agenda. As long as the ALPA greed and politics continue, you'll take more pay-cuts and we'll be flying those Saab340's at 1/8 the salary.

 

[Redtailer]

Saabservant,

I can respect the pay rate at the regionals because I have done my time there. I am well aware of the pay scales.

Actually there are those that are demanding more aircraft at the expense of mainline jobs, but I realize they are not in the majority.

I for one DO NOT want another carrier on the premises, particularly Mesa for various reasons not the least of which being reliability, but that is a Mgmt call.

However, you will have to explain why I or anyone else on mainline property should take even more of a pay cut for your job security. When this is negotiated everything has a price tag that must be paid. Are YOU willing to give up 15% or more of your pay to secure 40 more RJs? If so call your reps and let them know.

Just how did senior Alpa pilots sell you out? NWA MEC negotiates for the NWA pilots, not PCL, and not MSA. If you have low wages, it is your MEC fault, if you don't like the fact that other carriers are getting RJs and you're not then YOUR MEC needs to negotiate it. Stop blaming others for your contract.

 

[Redtailer]

avrodrivrj85,

Sorry if it offends you that I refer to the Airlinks as contractors, but what else are they? Let's see, they are public entities each with their own stock ticker, seperate managements, except for a couple of BOD seats. Completely different financial coffers. Not majority owned by NWAC. And the only relation they have with NWAC is through a contract between two distinct corporate entities that must be renewed on a timely basis. The CEO/President of NWAC has no say so over the mgmts of the Airlinks. Influence, yes. Control, no. Lastly, look at your pay stub. What company's name is on it? If you're not happy about your circumstances that is where you need to look to, not another company.

That's the reality of it. If you don't like it, oh well...

Let me throw it back at you and say I hope you are forced to take MORE concessions, I hope more mainline pilots are furloughed and you guys give another 30% in pay-cuts;

First off that's just repugnant. It speaks volumes of your character. I never suggested that any regional pilot take a pay cut or be laid off for my own benefit. I just said that NWA ALPA should not take pay cuts or layoff more of it's members to keep flying for the Airlinks. That is not their responsibility. That is the job of those airlines' MECs. Which by the way this TA does not cause any regional pilot to earn one less penny or cause even one job loss.


Be careful of what you wish for, read an article from Michael Boyd on www.aviationplanning.com He does airline forecasting in case you never heard of him, and he is usually spot on.

About a year or two ago he made a statement about the decreasing mainline wages. Bottom line, if mainline wages come down far enough the regionals will no longer have the cost advantage for outsourcing. It will cost about the same or cheaper to keep that flying on mainline property.

Next thing you know, voila! RJs on mainline property. Not that I wish ill on anyone, unlike some folks here, but RJs would start to show up on mainline property. Remember, there is NOTHING contractually keeping those RJs from ever coming to mainline.

 

[avrodriverj85]

avrodrivrj85,

First off that's just repugnant. It speaks volumes of your character. I never suggested that any regional pilot take a pay cut or be laid off for my own benefit.

This sounds like Kerry and his "I actually voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it". You don't need to say it, NWA MEC, the TA, and the actions of your pilot group with NW70, speak volumes of the repugnant behavior by your group.

I just said that NWA ALPA should not take pay cuts or layoff more of it's members to keep flying for the Airlinks.

No, but the attitude and the actions from your MEC and its pilots make it clear that it's the airlink pilots who have to remain flexible to allow mainline to maintain their livelihoods.

Be careful of what you wish for, read an article from Michael Boyd on www.aviationplanning.com He does airline forecasting in case you never heard of him, and he is usually spot on.

Michael Boyd is a crank. Let me share my own aviation forecasting. USAirways goes under and there are 5 Airlinks, not 3 - flying around on the NWA property. Who will your MEC and pilot group blame then?

About a year or two ago he made a statement about the decreasing mainline wages.

And? I think we'd all agree they were getting out of hand.

I want to feel as unsympathetic toward your cause as you guys are against ours. We are no longer in this together.

 

[Redtailer]

This sounds like Kerry and his "I actually voted for the $87 billion, before I voted against it". You don't need to say it, NWA MEC, the TA, and the actions of your pilot group with NW70, speak volumes of the repugnant behavior by your group.

You're kidding right? The TA does not cause a decrease of projected growth (not that this should matter), no job losses and no pay cuts for any regional pilot. So I fail to see where ANY regional pilot got screwed. The jets in question are NEW growth and unless YOUR mgmt negotiated them then you are not entitled to them. That does not mean you may not get them, but you do not OWN it. Keep in mind there was nothing specifically preventing mgmt from going with another carrier anyway. This was a way for mgmt to get more RJs faster. Also, this was a way to make sure we were not buying more RJs with our pay cuts. Tell you what, why don't you and everyone at the regionals donate a percentage of your check to NWAC so that we can buy some A320s for mainline. That will give you more aircraft to feed in to right? That's what I thought.


The NW70 is deferred until Feb. Once again, I'm sorry if you feel wronged but I don't see how you are getting screwed by the NWA pilots not wanting to give away flying they already are entitled to per the contract. How would you feel if NWA pilots decided to drop the floor from 51 seats down to 40? All of the RJs would then come to mainline and anyone not in a turboprop gets laid off? That is what you are asking.

No, but the attitude and the actions from your MEC and its pilots make it clear that it's the airlink pilots who have to remain flexible to allow mainline to maintain their livelihoods.

Flexible? How? What has NWA MEC done to make the regionals so bad? Last time I checked that was due to the contracts that YOUR MEC negotiated, YOUR mgmt and NWAC mgmt. NWA MEC has no effect on that. They just contractually require NWAC to only outsource X number of jets with some restrictions. NWA MEC does not allocate, schedule, or maintain those aircraft. So explain to me exactly HOW NWA MEC has made your life so miserable.

I would support any Airlink pilot in their efforts to obtain a better contract for themselves, but do not expect me to hand over my job so that you can grow.

 

[avrodriverj85]

Redtailer

Like I said in an earlier post, we are no longer in this together. We never really were. It was all just double-talk by your group and ALPA, - "family brand scope", my arse. That whole nonsense of a single seniority list or "flow up" was just a carrot to keep us under control and the wheels turning. Don't for a minute blame your furloughs on the regional pilots. If you really were a regional pilot before you went to mainline, then you are as much of the problem as you claim we are. Why? Because you agreed to work for such paltry wages to "build multi/PIC time". Once you skipped to the other side, you forgot where you came from and the sense of entitlements kicked in.

Like I said earlier - I hope there are 10 Airlinks out there one day. All under-cutting each other. Flying for peanuts. Hell, bring back 'pay-for training". Then karma might kick in and 5 years from now, you'll be back in a 50 seat CRJ, bitching and moaning about having to fly with a 24 year old kid with 1100 hrs flying into Flint one stormy night, wondering how the industry went into the toilet.

Pay Now or Pay Later - your choice.