ALPA Mesaba MEC Spin for NWA TA

[Mel Sharples]

When a mainline has scope against a regional to preserve their jobs, cries of "alpa is not giving us fair representation" resound. But when a regional (who is also alpa) is allowed to grow at the expense of former mainline routes and jobs......thats ok......LOL

When a mainline tells a regional they have their back and that "brand scope" and "family" are the ultimate goal, cries of "support ALPA" resound. But when a mainline (who is also ALPA) needs to take concessions they do so at the cost of regional growth at the first chance they get...that's ok... LOL

Pretty darn funny, isn't it?

You can have scope, buddy. Just don't give the jobs and growth away to a whore outside of the "family."

Maybe Delta can have your routes and jobs via codeshare....LOL...LOL...very funny...LOL...laugh at my own joke...LOL...LOL...regional pilots are stupid...LOL...LOL...funny...LOL


.

 

[dondk]

2. Keep all of that flying in house and when lets say PHL becomes vacant NWA does not have the resources to capture that flying. Instead, it goes to another carrier with the resources readily available.

In a "perfect" world this is a good plan, on paper it probably looks like a good plan...

What regional is going to go into bed with NWA when it is well known they will be replaced by NWA equipement or NWA Airlinks? IN this fantasy, if PHL should open up and the third airlink in born.. How long before NWA and NWA MEC starts to declare that flying there own?

Once NWA has a foothold, and lets be clear here.. NWA comes back for lets say 10% concessions to BUY the resources to cover PHL in this fantasy.. How many NWA pilots will vote it down if NWA is growing and everyone is getting movement back into the sen list? I'd guess very little, more to gain in this fantasy.

Reality is something completely different though...

Commutair about 5 years ago leaves USAiraways for the greener pastures of CAL and COEX. Not too long later, Commutair is decreasing size, fleet, pilots and COEX is surpringly getting Commutair's routes, slots, gates.

Another is CCAir and mesa.. purposefully drove out of business by the "bigger" carrier. Once again, routes, equipment, pilots all gone...

Of the contract carriers for those struggling legacy carriers.. Not too many are stupid enough to sign on to be driven out of town.

 

[flap operator]

This should make the NWA70 issue interesting if/when it finally comes to fruition. Read todays hotline... regarding recalls. Congrats, by the way to all the recalls.

http://www.nwaalpa.org/


FO

 

[JohnDoe]

Mel Sharples:

I challenge you to go back and find any post I have made where I support this so-called "brand-scope" and "family" crap. As a matter of fact, I have said the exact opposite: separate employee groups with separate contracts will never be a "family" nor be able to be "fairly" represented by the same union... can't and won't work. You have thousands of years of human evolution at work. If somebody out there is actually putting faith in that "family" crap, then I have a couple of bridges in Manhatten I'd like to sell them.

quote:
"But when a mainline (who is also ALPA) needs to take concessions they do so at the cost of regional growth at the first chance they get...that's ok... LOL"

So let me ask you: If you had to take concessions, would your pilot group incur additional "pain" with a larger pay cut to help protect some OTHER employee group's job??? NO YOU WOULDN'T. Enough of the double standard.


quote:
"Just don't give the jobs and growth away to a whore outside of the "family.""

Wait a minute, I thought Alpa was the family.....? After all, that is what the rjdc keeps complaining about. If these 40 crj's go to another alpa carrier, it's still in the family right?

As far as your last paragraph goes, it looks like you need to take your own advice and take some valium.

 

[Mel Sharples]

I challenge you to go back and find any post I have made where I support this so-called "brand-scope" and "family" crap.

I never said "you" in the personal sense supported brand scope. I said "you" in the NWA ALPA sense. That you cannot argue against. National and NWA ALPA were the ones that spoon fed us that crap. We were dumb enough to believe it.

So let me ask you: If you had to take concessions, would your pilot group incur additional "pain" with a larger pay cut to help protect some OTHER employee group's job??? NO YOU WOULDN'T. Enough of the double standard.

I say again, we weren't the ones preaching brand scope. You were. No, John, not you personally... relax. I mean "you" as NWA ALPA again. Remember "My MEC speaks for me!" That is what national says!

I don't expect you to take pay cuts to give us growth. I did expect that you wouldn't allow a new step-child into this f***ed up family like you did. You don't need to give us growth but what you did was give growth to a 3rd party and that is what smells. No one is mad at you for giving scope relief. You just gave it to the wrong people.

As for the double-standard, we are supposed to give up seniority at our airline so you guys can fly a jets-for-jobs deal? No double standard there.

Wait a minute, I thought Alpa was the family.....? After all, that is what the rjdc keeps complaining about. If these 40 crj's go to another alpa carrier, it's still in the family right?.

John, John, John... You seem like a bright guy (unlike Redtailer), but you don't get it either. The "family" is red tail pilots, not ALPA. NWA, Mesaba, and Pinnacle are the family. We are supposed to have each other's backs. We thought you had ours until you stuck the knife in it.

Another ALPA carrier is not in the family. Don't confuse red tail family with ALPA. I have never said that ALPA was the family at all.

If you guys let Mesa into this mix (a true whore in every sense of the word), you will be sorry you ever made that deal.

separate employee groups with separate contracts will never be a "family" nor be able to be "fairly" represented by the same union... can't and won't work.

Again, I think you are mixing up the NWA family and ALPA. NWA, red tails, are a family. ALPA is not, never has been, and never will be. As far as the same union goes, THAT is one point where you and I agree!



.

 

[furloughed dude]

You guys don't seem to like NWA "outsourcing" your work. It seems to me like you are "outsourcing" NWA mainline work.

Quit crying about how you are getting screwed. When you furlough 900+ pilots we'll talk.

 

[JohnDoe]

Mel:
"I don't expect you to take pay cuts to give us growth. I did expect that you wouldn't allow a new step-child into this f***ed up family like you did. You don't need to give us growth but what you did was give growth to a 3rd party and that is what smells. No one is mad at you for giving scope relief. You just gave it to the wrong people. "


You are assuming that the mec had a better choice in the matter. If nwa management really wanted to be able to outsource to a 3rd carrier, the negotiations for the mec may have come down to: "do we grant management's request, or do we give more concessions in another area and say no?" That is what I am referring to. No employee group out there would have taken a larger paycut or a hit in workrules to protect a different employee group. If the mec had said no, that "cost" would have to be made up in another area of concessions... it was a negotiation. Again, when it comes down to it, are you going to take a larger paycut to protect another workgroup?? Ultimately, the only people that know what took place during the negotiations are the negotiators. I trust they are looking out for the nw pilot group. (and by the way, as I have said before, I'm not that hot on the idea of another carrier. It should have come with the stipulation of a gradual phase-in of Mesaba or PCL, with their OWN financing of aircraft, to replace the "foreign" carrier once you were able to take over, or something of that nature).


quote:
"As for the double-standard, we are supposed to give up seniority at our airline so you guys can fly a jets-for-jobs deal? No double standard there."

Where is this phantom jet-for-jobs deal I keep hearing about?? I have never read anywhere, that you were expected to give up senority at your carrier. That is pure speculation. No jet for jobs has ever been proposed, and until it is, your arguement holds no water. In addition, you should take flap operator's advice with regards to reading about the recalls. By the time any 70 seat agreement is reached (if one ever is), the aircraft are ordered/delivered, pilots are trained, etc. etc., with luck most, if not all of the furloughs will be back at mainline (barring any unfortunate occurences in our country, but hey, we are all perfectly safe now that GW is re-elected, right?? lol). The whole 70 seat issue may be moot with respect to furloughs.


I do understand about the references to the Nwa "family." However, some in this thread, and those in many others, ARE referring to the alpa "family." I find it absurd that it is a "breach of fair representation" for a mainline alpa to scope out a regional alpa, but it would be OK for a regional alpa to scope out another regional alpa with regards to flying for a particular carrier as a contract feeder. After all, in that situation, one alpa carrier is "harming" another alpa carrier by preventing them from bidding on the flying and growing, and is there not a breach of "fair representation" there as well? (as I stated before, wholly-owned is a different situation).

With respect to your version of "family," where does it come from (and yes I realize what the mec said)?? We are all separate carriers, with separate contracts, doing fundamentaly different flying, with vastly different payscales, etc etc......Different employee groups just like any others in this country. And at the end of the day, when it is all said and done, you have to look out for yourself 'cause nobody else is going to do it for you. That is a pretty standard practice in this country. It would be nice if we could all sit down and sing kumb-by-ya around the campfire, but that is not reality in this capitalist society of ours. And before somebody gets on some "mainline arrogance" kick or some crud like that, this has nothing to do with mainline vs regional or any other deviation thereof. It is human nature, pure and simple. I'm not saying anybody has to like it, but it is what it is.


The only way any "family" is ever going to exist, is with one-list. Deep down, everybody here knows that there is not an airline management in existence that is ever going to allow that to happen.


Finally, you think we have a "f***ed up family".......try AMR.

 

[Redtailer]

Saabservant:

Just contractors, right? OK, if you say so, but why is it that the first thing a soon-to-be furloughed FO at mainline asks me is "how's the flow-through talks going?". Maybe it is because he wants to flow-back?
A lot of these folks (especially at Delta) feel they are entitled to take jobs and seniority at their regional contractors, that "all flying in the brand is ours...". Just as you seem to think we believe we are entitled to move up, or get additional flying.

You are making big assumptions that may be off. If they are asking about the "flow through" it is in regards to NW70 which does not have any "flow back" provisions. He really cares about making one list, but your cinicism won't let you see it. But this is a moot point because negotiations have not started and nothing has been agreed to.
Entitled to move up or get additional flying for regionals? According to most of the people on here all of the flying should be kept to PCL and MSA because they are entitled to it and they are not. Correct me if I'm wrong.

For fifteen million, they could have allowed a quick entry into usair markets AND stopped that new airlink from being used against PCL (which is in negotiations-and you don't think this will be used against them? Or you, in the long run?) or MSA

Ok, how? $15 mil won't buy even 1 RJ let alone 40. Where would this $15 mil come from? Not NWAC, not NWA pilots, so from where? If you believe it can be done with a $15 mil investment then why don't MSA and PNCL pilots take paycuts to fund this program so these jets are not outsourced? That solves everyone's problem now doesn't it????

You guys have to get off your high horses and realize that this is not about PCL or MSA. It is about NWA being competitive in the market place. The agreement cannot affect PNCL negotiations simply because there are only 40 authorized RJs none of which are being subtracted from the total number allowed. So that argument is DOA.

The fact is that our interests are being used by your leadership as bargaining chips with NWA. Wychor is MSA MEC chairman, a natl. vice-president, and head of the scope impact committee. And this is what they do to him? What does this say about our, or his place, in this union? His mild letter to his own group says it all, that he is there to protect the interests of alpa natl. and nwalpa. It is just politics, after all. What's the phrase? "It's not personal, it's just business".

Sounds like you need a new MEC chairman if he's that gullible. This isn't a bunch of kids playing in a sandbox it's business dealing with multi-million dollar careers.

 

[Redtailer]

dondk:

What regional is going to go into bed with NWA when it is well known they will be replaced by NWA equipement or NWA Airlinks? IN this fantasy, if PHL should open up and the third airlink in born.. How long before NWA and NWA MEC starts to declare that flying there own?

If the potential regional doesn't like the terms then they won't sign. Besides, whoever said that they would be replaced???? If anything probably re-deployed. And given the choice between signing a short deal with NWA and making payments on the world's most expensive paperweight once the mainline goes belly up I think they would jump at the opportunity.

Mel:

You know what??? Your company ran itself into financial straights so that's why I don't give two hoots if you guys take cut after cut after cut. You guys are the reason your company is in financial straights in the first place. You take a pay cut and you still make more than almost every other pilot in the country.

And you are trying to talk about my education? Do you have ANY clue as to how the finances at NWAC has been in the last few years? Put the kool-aid down. If you believe that then you had better do some great negotiating because you will be at the regional level for the rest of your life.

Do I sound like an a-hole yet? Well that's what you are saying to us, brother. This "you first right after me" attitude is old.

You said it, I didn't.

The second half of that is incorrect though. It's " I take care of my job, you take care of yours and stop your whining."

 

[Mel Sharples]

You know what??? Your company ran itself into financial straights so that's why I don't give two hoots if you guys take cut after cut after cut. You guys are the reason your company is in financial straights in the first place. You take a pay cut and you still make more than almost every other pilot in the country.

And you are trying to talk about my education? Do you have ANY clue as to how the finances at NWAC has been in the last few years? Put the kool-aid down. If you believe that then you had better do some great negotiating because you will be at the regional level for the rest of your life.

Oh, good God... I was being sarcastic. I was trying to explain to you how you sound to us. Of course what I said is not true. You were rambling so bad that I wanted to put in terms you might be able to understand.

I was trying to make a point, but apparently that was lost on you.

*sigh*



.

 

[InclusiveScope]

As far as the 40 RJs are concerned, ALPA made a choice of the options:

1. Allowing outsourcing of the RJs to an independent carrier to grab overnight marketshare, something that neither Airlink is capable of.

Sorry Redtailer, I have to throw the BS flag here. Why limit the 40 RJs to carriers OTHER than PCL or Mesaba? If neither Airlink "is capable of" these 40 RJs than you didn't need to limit them now did you?

 

[ASADriver]

Question for the Pinnacle and Mesabe guys and gals:

With this apparant failure of brand scope on the NWA property while it appears that some brand scope was achieved on the Delta property, is there now more of an acceptance to taking some legal action similar to RJDC?

 

[Beerme]

Redtailer,

This attitude towards the RJ pilots and regional pilots in general is very becoming of you. Let me throw it back at you and say I hope you are forced to take MORE concessions, I hope more mainline pilots are furloughed and you guys give another 30% in pay-cuts; then we can listen to more of your complaining on how it's the regional pilots fault. I'm sorry you can't make it in this world on $93,000 a year, but hey - whatever !! Stop living beyond your means. If you can't take it, quit !!

I'll be sure to post this in the crew room a$$hole!! You obviously haven't learned...$hit rolls downhill...and YOUR on the bottom. Fortunately, your in the minority...I have buddys at Airlink who hope we do get the 70 seaters and will be able to take advantage of any future growth opportunities, so they'll be able to get hired by NW when we start hiring. You on the other hand, can only blame others for your own failure to succeed in this business. I talk to guys like you all the time..."I interviewed everywhere and always got turned down"..."Do you have a 4 year degree"..."Well...no"..."Do you have any blemishes on your record?"..."Well, only that DUI back in college"..."Ever have any trouble in training"..."Well, only a couple of busted checkrides" WAKE THE FU$K UP!!! AND GMAFB!!!

 

[Beerme]

Sorry Redtailer, I have to throw the BS flag here. Why limit the 40 RJs to carriers OTHER than PCL or Mesaba? If neither Airlink "is capable of" these 40 RJs than you didn't need to limit them now did you?

It doesn't limit to OTHER carriers besides PCL or Mesaba...the acft just can't be financed by NWA, and unfortunately for PCL/Mesaba, they don't buy ANY of their acft...NWA does. The NW pilots weren't going to take a pay cut only to have that money buy more acft for other pilots to fly. If PCL/Mesaba want to bid on that flying, go ahead...but they'll have to buy their own acft to do it. Get it?

 

[Mel Sharples]

It doesn't limit to OTHER carriers besides PCL or Mesaba...the acft just can't be financed by NWA, and unfortunately for PCL/Mesaba, they don't buy ANY of their acft...NWA does. The NW pilots weren't going to take a pay cut only to have that money buy more acft for other pilots to fly. If PCL/Mesaba want to bid on that flying, go ahead...but they'll have to buy their own acft to do it. Get it?

Edited for rudeness.

Per the NWA ASA, Mesaba and/or Pinnacle cannot own their own aircraft and fly for NWA. Period.

Next time do your homework instead of getting drunk and trying to pick a fight with regional pilots. Use the computer for something useful, like trying to figure out how the 15% pay cut you are taking is going to put a dent in your BMW payments, you ,,,,,,,,,,



.