ALPA Mesaba MEC Spin for NWA TA

[JohnDoe]

avrodriverj85:
You seem to be missing important points redtailer brought up, re-read 'em 10 times:

"Whether you like it or not, and this is really important for you to undertand, the Airlinks are nothing more than contractors. Meaning, you cannot demand what flying is given to you. If you are building a house, how can I as a contractor come up to you and say "I demand that I build your roof?" It just doesn't work that way.

-and-

"Sorry if it offends you that I refer to the Airlinks as contractors, but what else are they? Let's see, they are public entities each with their own stock ticker, seperate managements, except for a couple of BOD seats. Completely different financial coffers. Not majority owned by NWAC. And the only relation they have with NWAC is through a contract between two distinct corporate entities that must be renewed on a timely basis. "

You are not Northwest employees, hence the notion of one big "happy" NW family is a myth. You would have no problem doing any of the same things to Big Sky, and they are owned by your same parent company.


quote from avrodriverj85:
"Like I said in an earlier post, we are no longer in this together. We never really were."

Again, re-read what I posted earlier 10 times:

"It is not, and will never be, possible for one union to fairly represent different employee groups that each have different contracts (with vastly different payscales), flying different equipment, and all trying to get some of the same flying and growth. "

One union will NEVER be able to represent separate and distinctly different groups of employess that are all trying to obtain the same flying. The sooner regional pilots realize this, the sooner you can do something about it like form your own union. And it isn't even just between mainline and regional. Soon I see a rift between alpa represented regional carriers as they start to challenge each other's scope in an attempt to gain flying of other mainline carriers. If your alpa carrier is not a wholly-owned, why is your (and I mean that in a generic way, not in relation to Mesaba) scope preventing other alpa regionals from doing your flying any less "unfair" than mainline's?? After all, you are preventing other alpa "brothers" from obtaining work and growth.


And finally.....why should mainline have to protect your jobs with language in THEIR contract (and hence negotiating capital) about who can do feed for NW any more than you should have to?? You wouldn't spend capital on putting language in your contract protecting mainline, so get of the high-horse. Why don't you get your own scope language in your contract preventing any other outside contractors???

That paragraph aside, I will agree that letting another camel's nose into the tent with more airlinks MAY end up being a mistake. If the "last minute" need for feed left by a chap 7 carrier does occur, slowly transitioning that flying to Mesaba and PCL would be the way to go, but who knows if that would happen.

 

[Rhoid]

And? I think we'd all agree they were getting out of hand.

Like you would have turned down a job at a major when they were hiring because you thought that the pay was getting "out of hand"! I guess you'd turn down any pay raise because it might mean your pay is getting "out of hand"!

What you have pal is classic pay check envy. You and many other commuter pilots feel like since you missed making it to the big time with the big pay checks, then no one else should have that same oppurtunity.

You and most other commuter pilots need to realise what your place in the aviation world is... You are a CONTRACTOR to mainline and they and they alone determine where you fly, you do not OWN any of THEIR flying. If you want a say in where NWA flies then get a job at NWA, oh wait, you didn't want to work for them in the past because their pay was getting "out of hand"!

 

[Rhoid]

Like I said earlier - Hell, bring back 'pay-for training".
Pay Now or Pay Later - your choice.

Heck, why not institute Pay for Recall!!!

 

[P38JLightning]

why not!

>>>Heck, why not institute Pay for Recall!!!

Great idea! We already have Pay for Flight Time, Pay for Upgrade and Pay for Growth!

 

[DoinTime]

Whether you like it or not, and this is really important for you to undertand, the Airlinks are nothing more than contractors. Meaning, you cannot demand what flying is given to you.

Like it or not the mainline pilot group is nothing more than a contractor also. You provide a service for Northwest Airlines under the terms of a contract. The work you provide is secured by the scope section of your contract. If you don't have it scoped (or you relinquish those protections) you no longer "own" it. You will notice that NW pilots don't have rights on flight attendant work, maintenance, or ever the closely related job of dispatching. This is because you don't have that work scoped. While you may not have wanted that work you also didn't want regional flying.

While this doesn't "seem" right to most people that's the way it is in the cold, hard world we live in.

Keep in mind there was nothing specifically preventing mgmt from going with another carrier anyway.

The only thing that was specific was the NWMEC's ability to deny NW the ability to start up a new code share partner. Now that the NWMEC has shown they have no allegiance to the rest of the "family" we are powerless to gain any additional bargaining leverage to improve our working conditions. Both Pinnacle and Mesaba are bound by exclusivity clauses to NW through the NW pilots scope clause. I have no problem with this as long as there is some reciprocity in the agreement.

We do have some new specific language in this new TA though. Pinnacle and Mesaba are SPECIFICALLY prohibited from operating the 40 50-seaters that Northwest can bring on beyond the cap of 104 50-seaters.

I truly believed NW pilots would honor their MEC resolutions, the guidance of ALPA national, and the pilots at the Airlink carriers but they have proved me the fool.

Which by the way this TA does not cause any regional pilot to earn one less penny or cause even one job loss.

Maybe not in the near term but the deconstruction of the monopoly XJ and 9E shared on NW feeder flying will reduce our ability to make contract gains for ourselves in the future and ultimately erode job security.

About a year or two ago he made a statement about the decreasing mainline wages. Bottom line, if mainline wages come down far enough the regionals will no longer have the cost advantage for outsourcing. It will cost about the same or cheaper to keep that flying on mainline property.

Next thing you know, voila! RJs on mainline property. Not that I wish ill on anyone, unlike some folks here, but RJs would start to show up on mainline property. Remember, there is NOTHING contractually keeping those RJs from ever coming to mainline.

You got the theory right but are you saying its better to reduce mainline pay to reduce the discrepancy in wages or do you think it would be better increase regional pay to produce the same effect?

Mainline pilot groups across the industry enjoyed monopolies of their carriers flying for many years and the result of that was high wages and good work rules due to the threat of strike come negotiation time. Thanks to actions such as the NW pilot group is taking now regional pilot groups have lost any of the ability to inflict employer pain through work action. Unfortunately its the mainline pilots that suffer by having to come down closer to our pay levels instead of us coming up to theirs.

Redtailer, I hope your close to retirement because if your not you will personnaly bear witness to the repercusions of the infinate blindness of both yourself and your MEC leaders.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Thanks to actions such as the NW pilot group is taking now regional pilot groups have lost any of the ability to inflict employer pain through work action. "


Wait a minute....you just had a golden opportunity for "work action" and you declined to use it. You could have gotten a nice scope clause for yourself (with regards to outside contractors or whatever), but elected to accept a last minute TA. How is that NW fault? If you didn't protect yourself with this new contract.....why should somebody else?

 

[DoinTime]

Wait a minute....you just had a golden opportunity for "work action" and you declined to use it. You could have gotten a nice scope clause for yourself (with regards to outside contractors or whatever), but elected to accept a last minute TA. How is that NW fault? If you didn't protect yourself with this new contract.....why should somebody else?

I guess I didn't clarify myself very well on this subject.

While regionals are still able to go strike (provided the right measures have been taken) the effectiveness of this strike is significantly diminished when it fails to have a significant impact on the people who pull the strings. Look around, nearly all of the major carriers that have regional networks employ multiple airlines to cover this flying. Domicile flying among these carriers is mixed even further to continue watering down the effectiveness of a regional strike.

Mesaba's situation, while I was removed from it, seemed to me a perfect example of what I am talking about. They certainly had the opportunity to go on strike but if a strike will not yield the desired effects (more money, better work rules) it is pointless to proceed with one. Even splitting a monopoly with one other carrier (Pinnacle) is devastating to total bargaining power. Nobody will ever know if a pilot strike at Mesaba would have achieved beneficial results for the pilot group. I somehow doubt it would have improved their position.

These upcoming negotiations at Pinnacle and the next time around at Mesaba will be even more difficult as there will be another Airlink diluting the monopoly.

 

[sf3boy]

Doin Time said it all. The NWA pilots fail to understand that they are nothing more than contract employees themselves. Their scope language is the only thing keeping those contract employees from being replaced by a plane that seats ten less people and burns half the gas as well as lower paying contract employees sitting in the cockpit. Good luck to those at NWA. Have fun with Mesa, Great Lakes or whoever is the next Airlink for you. I hope you get to keep your "money grows on trees in the military" pensions for the senior boys.


For Mesaba and Pinnacle, since we are nothing other than contract employees, I hope now that we get 757's. If we can crew them for way less than mainline, great. We don't fly for NWA and we need only to worry about our own pilot group. Brand Scope....we definately don't need that. We need to make our companies' profitable and who cares if the mainline guys get furloughed. They new that was a possibilty when they climbed out of their KC-135 or cashed in their seniority number at a regional. It's all about me now. ALPA has made sure of that.

 

[sf3boy]

John Doe,
Mesaba did get a nice scope clause. ALPA said that it was paramount and we "supposedly" gave up numerous other items (i.e. pay) to get it. That was when the NWA and MSA MEC's were spouting off about brand scope. Now that the NWA MEC has said that brand scope was a figment of the regional pilots' imaginations, that scope language doesn't mean diddly poo. __________ (insert "low cost provider" here) can now come in and take the flying that the NWA pilots say is below them.

Thanks ALPA for leading us into an alley with no escapes. It sure would have been nice to know last Jan that the NWA MEC had no intention of trying to become a "brand airline" with its current regionals. Maybe that pitiful excuse for a wage increase would not have passed if we knew this was in the making.

 

[avrodriverj85]

SF3Boy


You're forgetting something, our MEC probably knew about this alot sooner than anyone else. Plus, since the NWA came out with this TA, our MEC has done nothing but remind us we are all still brothers, NWA brand scope, blah, blah, blah.. If we are going to go down, they might as well go down with us. I would say a recall of this bunch of back-stabbers (Wychor, Patz, Marut, Pierson, Metzger, and Peecher) is a good way to feel a whole lot better about our plight. I know that we'd all feel better if they were forced to return to the line and suffer like the rest of us. It would crush Wychors ego if he had to return to life as a line-pilot. Let's wipe those smirks off there faces once and for all.

 

[Redtailer]

DoinTime said:

Like it or not the mainline pilot group is nothing more than a contractor also.

sf3boy said:

The NWA pilots fail to understand that they are nothing more than contract employees themselves.

You guys are completely missing the point. I have not compared the employees to contractors, I called the COMPANIES contractors. There is a difference. We are all contract employees subject to the contracts with our individual companies. However, what I am trying to relay to you guys is that your COMPANIES aka PCL and MSA are contractors.

The sooner you realize the difference the sooner you will understand there are some things you can affect and some things you cannot. The trick is knowing the difference and coming up with an effective counter strategy.

DoinTime said:

The only thing that was specific was the NWMEC's ability to deny NW the ability to start up a new code share partner.

The work you provide is secured by the scope section of your contract.

Sf3boy said:

Their (NWA) scope language is the only thing keeping those contract employees from being replaced by a plane that seats ten less people and burns half the gas as well as lower paying contract employees sitting in the cockpit.

Ok, after all of these replies NO ONE has answered my original question. How much should NWA Pilots pay for YOUR scope protection? We paid for ours in 1998.

Do you guys understand that the job protections should be the responsibility of those being protected? The NWA pilot group has NO incentive to gurantee you any flying by giving up their paychecks.. Just what part of this do you not understand? IF YOU WANT SCOPE PROTECTION IT COSTS MONEY!!!!! Why would I pay money to gurantee you future flying opportunitties?!?!?!?!?!

IF YOU WANT PROTECTION, THEN PAY FOR IT YOURSELF! We did and that is why everything, except for the Avros, over 50 seats belongs on mainline property!!!!! This is not a charity, this is a job.

Can I be any more clear????


DoinTime Said:

The only thing that was specific was the NWMEC's ability to deny NW the ability to start up a new code share partner. Now that the NWMEC has shown they have no allegiance to the rest of the "family" we are powerless to gain any additional bargaining leverage to improve our working conditions. Both Pinnacle and Mesaba are bound by exclusivity clauses to NW through the NW pilots scope clause. I have no problem with this as long as there is some reciprocity in the agreement.

You are blaming your exclusivity on the NWA MEC???????? Reciprocity?????

Do you understand that NWA MEC has NOTHING, wait, let me make myself clear, NOTHING, to do with what YOUR company negotiated with NWAC. If you are having heartburn over it then tell YOUR management. Once again, it goes back to that contractor thing. NWA MEC has no say so and owes your group nothing in that regard. If you want to blame someone look at your executive management team for signing on the dotted line that NWAC put under their nose.

Mesaba's situation, while I was removed from it, seemed to me a perfect example of what I am talking about. They certainly had the opportunity to go on strike but if a strike will not yield the desired effects (more money, better work rules) it is pointless to proceed with one. Even splitting a monopoly with one other carrier (Pinnacle) is devastating to total bargaining power. Nobody will ever know if a pilot strike at Mesaba would have achieved beneficial results for the pilot group. I somehow doubt it would have improved their position.

MSA pilots paid for what scope they received. No one else paid for it, therefore they deserve it.

You guys are trying to slam the barn door after the horses got out. I can't help that. The NWA pilots closed the door before it was too late. The lack of vision of your MEC does not make NWA pilots responsible for your welfare.

 

[DoinTime]

You are blaming your exclusivity on the NWA MEC???????? Reciprocity?????

Do you understand that NWA MEC has NOTHING, wait, let me make myself clear, NOTHING, to do with what YOUR company negotiated with NWAC. If you are having heartburn over it then tell YOUR management. Once again, it goes back to that contractor thing. NWA MEC has no say so and owes your group nothing in that regard. If you want to blame someone look at your executive management team for signing on the dotted line that NWAC put under their nose.

You obviously don't have a good grasp of your pilot contract nor the working agreements your company has with its service partners. These subsections of YOUR contract are the only things that restrict Pinnacle from operating for other carriers (I do not know the specifics of XJ's air service agreement):

Section 1.C.9.e. All Regional Jets and AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines, and any other air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, must be operated at all times with the NW code designator. If the NW code designator is removed from a Regional Jet operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines or another air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, or from an AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, that aircraft shall no longer be operated by the carrier.

and;

Section 1.C.7. Domestic Code Share Agreements
Nothing in this Section 1 C. shall preclude the Company or an Affiliate from establishing and/or maintaining a code share agreement with another U.S. certificated airline, provided that the code share agreement is with an airline which operates only aircraft that (i) are certificated with a maximum passenger capacity of less than 60 seats and (ii) are certificated with a maximum gross takeoff weight of less than 70,000 pounds. Each current code share agreement shall be amended to provide, and the terms of any future code share agreement shall provide, that in the event the airline, or any parent or subsidiary thereof, begins operating aircraft that (i) are certificated with a maximum passenger capacity of 60 seats or more, or (ii) are certificated with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 70,000 pounds, or more, the code share agreement shall terminate on the date of commencement of operation of any such aircraft. For purposes of Section 1 C., a code share agreement shall be defined as an agreement where an airline other than Northwest Airlines, Inc. uses the Northwest Airlines, Inc. designator (NW), on a single, dual or multiple designator basis, on one or more of its flights.

Ok, after all of these replies NO ONE has answered my original question. How much should NWA Pilots pay for YOUR scope protection? We paid for ours in 1998.

Do you guys understand that the job protections should be the responsibility of those being protected? The NWA pilot group has NO incentive to gurantee you any flying by giving up their paychecks.. Just what part of this do you not understand? IF YOU WANT SCOPE PROTECTION IT COSTS MONEY!!!!! Why would I pay money to gurantee you future flying opportunitties?!?!?!?!?!

IF YOU WANT PROTECTION, THEN PAY FOR IT YOURSELF! We did and that is why everything, except for the Avros, over 50 seats belongs on mainline property!!!!! This is not a charity, this is a job.

Can I be any more clear????

You once again are demonstrating why it is that the majors are destined to become more pay competitive with regional pilots by mainliners taking pay cuts instead of regional guys getting pay raises.

As you pointed out, regional pilots have a middleman in their relationship with the company they really do business with (the mainline airline). This relationship precludes us from being able to negotiate scope. The only protection from cut throat competition we can possibly have is from the group that can directly negotiate with the mainline. Without this protection the regionals are nearly powerless in withstanding pricing pressure from competing airlines. The result? Low wages and poor working conditions at the regional level which in turn puts more pressure on the mainline pilots trying to keep their jobs. Ultimately, management wins from all labor groups competing for the jobs.

Nobody was even asking for new language to be negotiated to ban anymore service partners. The language you had along with your commitment to not selling us out was sufficient. Instead you sold your management language that provides an incentive to bring in another carrier and bans XJ and 9E from even bidding on that flying. Your concession to NW will long term cost you, and Airlink pilots, many many times what you could have possibly gained from it now.

As the years pass mainline pilot groups will continue the trend of allowing more (and larger) jets flying at the regionals to try and hang on to those high paying widebody jobs for a little bit longer. Who would have thought that eight years ago the NW pilots would have agreed to having 150+ turbojet aircraft subcontracted out? Its pretty amazing how far mainline MEC's have allowed this industry to slide the past decade.

 

[Redtailer]

Section 1.C.9.e. All Regional Jets and AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines, and any other air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, must be operated at all times with the NW code designator. If the NW code designator is removed from a Regional Jet operated by Mesaba Airlines, Express Airlines or another air carrier in which the Company or an Affiliate has an ownership interest, or from an AVRO-85 aircraft operated by Mesaba Airlines, that aircraft shall no longer be operated by the carrier.

As I recall that did not stop Mesa/Freedom or CHQ/Republic. Once again, that goes back to your management signing the piece of paper. Also, they could have refused. No one held a gun to their head. MSA and PCL both as far as I know are free to start up other carriers and fly for other airlines. NWA pilot contract has no bearing on that. THE reason you are not flying for other airlines right now is due to your management's plan. Unfortunately, they could care less what you want.

You once again are demonstrating why it is that the majors are destined to become more pay competitive with regional pilots by mainliners taking pay cuts instead of regional guys getting pay raises.

You do not see the reason we are taking paycuts. It's not the regional pilots killing our pay rates right now. The reason is the economy, LCCs, and multiple catastrophic events. Regional pilots could be paid the same as us right now, all that would do is move the flying to mainline and we would still take pay cuts. Not that I am not in favor of raising the regional pay rates, but it is has little bearing on our pay rates.

As you pointed out, regional pilots have a middleman in their relationship with the company they really do business with (the mainline airline). This relationship precludes us from being able to negotiate scope.

I disagree. You can negotiate scope with YOUR company which in turn must negotiate with NWAC or another entity. Now, the big question is whether or not your company will be competitive with that scope clause in place and it is a choice that you have to make. NWA MEC made their choice because they represent NWA pilots and believed it would be beneficial for the NWA pilot group. Your group must make the same choices.

The language you had along with your commitment to not selling us out was sufficient. Instead you sold your management language that provides an incentive to bring in another carrier and bans XJ and 9E from even bidding on that flying.

When the contract was negotiated, I doubt one of the conversations at the negotiating table was about how this language was going to preserve the two
Airlinks. This portion of the TA is all about flexibility for NWA. Now unless PCL or MSA can produce 40 RJs overnight without the assistance of NWAC then you guys are not viable bidders. Not per the contract, but as a matter of competitive edge.

As the years pass mainline pilot groups will continue the trend of allowing more (and larger) jets flying at the regionals to try and hang on to those high paying widebody jobs for a little bit longer. Who would have thought that eight years ago the NW pilots would have agreed to having 150+ turbojet aircraft subcontracted out? Its pretty amazing how far mainline MEC's have allowed this industry to slide the past decade.

As I stated in an earlier post. ALPA made the mistake years ago by allowing even 1 RJ to be outsourced. Given the opportunity I'm sure that mistake would not be made again. The ONLY reason scope clauses are loosening up right now is due to the bankruptcy courts and the threat of bankruptcy. There is a line in the sand where the regionals stop and mainline begins, but that line is not a straight one. It shifts back and forth amongst the carriers. NW70 was intent on erasing that line. In fact the very NWA MEC that you guys are cursing is the same one that has been fighting to make one seniority list. The sole reason it has not come to fruition yet is that it is being blocked by NWAC. NW70 may change that yet somehow the regional pilots are still getting screwed on flying that already belongs to NWA pilots.

So how is it that they are trying to sell you out and help you at the same time?

 

[sf3boy]

Redtailer, nobody but ourselves should pay for our scope and XJ and over at 9E. I know this. I know this well as the POS contract wages we ratified last spring look me in the face everyday. We were told that we had to accept those wages to get that Iron Clad scope. I guess I am tired of the three MEC's acting like best buddies, telling us 5+ year Saab FO's that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, only to have you give away your flying to a potential third party. We all know that it is your flying, or at least I know that. NWA has the routes and your pilot group had the forsight to make sure the jobs stayed on your property.

At any rate, I really hope US Air and United call pull through. As someone else said, once you let Mesa in the door, they are in the bloodstream permanetly.

 

[dondk]

I am confused....
ALL of the flying belongs to NWA MEC.. I agree with that.
Now with the 2 current Airlinks, all I have heard for the past 2-3 years is how we (the current airlinks) are taking mainline flying. I wish I had a buck for each time I heard some "off color" comment from a -9 driver about thier loss of flying or loss of block hours.

Now the very same group, relax's the scope to let a "lower cost" operator into the mix. What protection did the NWAMEC put into the TA to make sure no more flying it taking away from mainline? Or is the flying going to come out of the Airlinks?

I have heard that it is to pick up the flying of when one of the others go belly up. The question though is.. intially I can see some other 3rd airlink doing this, but at some time, couldn't NWA just decide to. "well we can send 2-3 of the 3rd airlinks flights and take away a mainline flight"?

What protection is built into the TA to further protect the current mainline flying? If as an example of Airways... PIT-DTW.. Airways regionals operate that presently.. What protection is there to NWA pilots that they don't lose the flying to the 3rd Airlink? This would do the same for PHL-DTW or is United's case ORD-DTW, ORD-MSP, DEN-MSP. It starts somewhere, just like the current airlinks did years ago.

Some of those routes may already flown by airlinks, do we (the airlinks lose) or does mainline lose if they should switch to the cheaper operator? I'd guess mainline flying would go before airlink flying.

The only protection I can see is no more than 40 RJ's with no more than 50 seats. I don't see the protection of not reducing the block hours of any of the NWA fleet's. Unless your hoping that the $$$ that NWA will save by not buying 40 new RJ's and they will put that towards more a few more A320's.