Alpa Executive Council Says No To AAA's Request To Vacate Arbitration Award.

[PCL_128]

PCL, keep it in perspective, the Association is not being torn apart by this decision, the Association has weathered far worse storms than this. Yes there are 4,500 or so upset East pilots, but that was not the doing of the Association. JMHO, but the East MEC bungled this integration horribly, not the Association.

FDJ, I agree that the Association isn't really at fault, but that doesn't change the fact that we are facing our first viable decertification campaign since American broke away half a century ago. Losing the AAA pilot group would be a major blow to the Association, and I'm afraid that it's a real possibility.

I do agree, however, that the East really screwed the pooch on this. Hopefully someone in Herndon can figure out how to minimize the damage from this mess.

 

[Fast43]

The Association is a Ponzi scheme whose time has come and gone.


A union that can't define seniority, but rather indulges itself the luxury of pawning it off on an arbitrator, doesn't serve any purpose but its own. Nor can it.

Clearly you would like to hide behind the explicit definition of seniority as it is convienent for you to do so. with the mixing of airlines work groups "seniority" lists are no longer true reflections of "seniority" the AAA list had already reflected this. A 10 year pilot at 2 different airlines usually have different choices available to them.

Please do not argue for all airline terms to be interpreted literally or we will truly have to "Bid" actual dollar amounts on the flying that we are willing to do each month.

I'm sure that wouldn't work very well.

 

[Turtle21]

You didn't address the point. ALPA exists for itself. It legally has established a scheme wereby it can pin the blame on everyone else and still get paid, even though it never delivers anything. If it not obligated to define seniority, the definition of everything else is pointless.

 

[Denizen]

Mayby PCl 128 could just write a check to the east side and score a cool jet job

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Both, actually. I believe that Nicolau didn't adhere to ALPA merger policy and handed the West a major windfall by not including sufficient fences in the award. I also believe that the EC should have recognized this and determined that the award was invalid due to the arbitrator not adhering to the required provisions of the policy. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion and interpretation, so I can understand the EC coming to a different conclusion. It's certainly not an easy situation.

Therein lies your problem!! Now from current rep to former rep, have you even bothered to read the ENTIRE award?? All of the protection were contained within the award itself. You seem to be one of those who fails to understand the real difference between longevity and seniority further as a former rep you should also know merger policy and that in 1991 Date of hire was removed!! Further, you should know and fully understand all of the dynamics of this unique case and why the ruling came down as it did.

Now how can the UAL, NWA and the DAL merger committees all state that given all of the information they conclude that the award is fair yet you as a former rep never having even read the entire award feel justified in your assessment that it violates section 45???

WD`

 

[FDJ2]

I do agree, however, that the East really screwed the pooch on this. Hopefully someone in Herndon can figure out how to minimize the damage from this mess.

LCC may or may not break away from ALPA, I believe that ultimately cooler heads will prevail.

Regardless, ALPA needs to maintain its nuetral position. Both MEC's had an equal and fair opportunity to integrate their lists through negotiation and when that failed through mediation and arbitration. Nicolau wasn't thrust upon the AAA pilots, they agreed to have him arbitrate this integration.

We're all big boys, we make our decisions and we have to live by the choices we make. The AAA MEC chose their strategy and argued their case in the venue they wanted overseen by the arbitrator they agreed too. It didn't work out the way they had hoped. They went all in with a strategy that clearly violated ALPA's policy. When warned by Nicolau to present a new argument, they refused to budge. The time for negotiations has passed, they wanted Nicolau to make the decision and now he has.

Will this lead to decertification. I doubt it. Half of the AAA pilots have already upgraded and none of the AAA pilots lost their seat or relative seniority. To the contrary, most of the AAA pilots gained a little bit of relative seniority. 2/3rds of all the upgrade opportunities will still go to the East and when cooler heads prevail the East will realize that decertification, even if they could muster the votes to do it, wont change a thing.

Integrations are never pretty, but this to shall pass.

I leave you with the last word on the matter.

 

[waveflyer]

You didn't address the point. ALPA exists for itself. It legally has established a scheme wereby it can pin the blame on everyone else and still get paid, even though it never delivers anything. If it not obligated to define seniority, the definition of everything else is pointless.

Are you saying that ALPA national should impose it's will instead of providing a process for the individual MEC's to work it out?

I think you are only upset with ALPA's lack of effectiveness since 9/11. That's being corrected- but make no mistake-- It's all about setting the stage for 2009 and a more labor law-abiding administration, major airline hiring boom coinciding with a pilot shortage at the regionals.

Another said this- Seniority is not 'years in service' - I choose to define it as 'how many pilots do i have junior to me?'

Everyone here knows what i think of our current seniority system- It favors only the clear winners, fractures our unity everywhere else, and is being used against us by managements nationwide. We should start acting like we're smart and can adapt with the times. But a new adage says: "pilots are the stupidest smart people you'll ever meet. Rather be the highest paid at $90k than the lowest paid at $100k"

We've seen what 'looking out for #1' has gotten us....

// and the world keeps spinnin' .....

 

[ironspud]

You just can't believe how refreshing it is to see the underdog AWA group winning this fight...and doing it "smart". Nice job.

Good on ya!!

 

[Turtle21]

You just can't believe how refreshing it is to see the underdog AWA group winning this fight...and doing it "smart". Nice job.

Good on ya!!

I agree with your sentiments that ALPA has one set of member pilots winning and one loosing, and that the "good on ya" doesn't belong to the EC, but to the winning set of pilots instead.

 

[Turtle21]

Are you saying that ALPA national should impose it's will instead of providing a process for the individual MEC's to work it out?

I'm not saying what ALPA should do. I'm saying we should know what the hell authorities of ALPA we are paying for (well I don't pay for it since I am on Mil leave for four more years).

ALPA is an association and as such has no authority or responsibility to define seniority across separated, but associated, member pilots groups. They are not a union and as such they are not authorized by their voting members to define seniority across separated pilot groups. ALPA has an interest in pilots having the feelings of being a union, but it is not. ALPA, as defined, must do nothing more than implore separated pilot groups to fight it out disputes amongst themselves, and to seek a third party to resolve it if they fail to do it themselves. Pilots pay rather handsomely to have a neutral from beginning to end. But we do get a shiny magazine.

The poor schmuxs at COMAIR and other ALPA stepchild airlines have know for years that ALPA is not a union. It is good to see the underdog win once in a while.

 

[AutoBus]

Both, actually. I believe that Nicolau didn't adhere to ALPA merger policy and handed the West a major windfall by not including sufficient fences in the award. I also believe that the EC should have recognized this and determined that the award was invalid due to the arbitrator not adhering to the required provisions of the policy. Of course, this is all a matter of opinion and interpretation, so I can understand the EC coming to a different conclusion. It's certainly not an easy situation.

So in your little dream world how would you combine the lists? (this should be interesting)

 

[regionaltard]

Therein lies your problem!! Now from current rep to former rep, have you even bothered to read the ENTIRE award?? All of the protection were contained within the award itself. You seem to be one of those who fails to understand the real difference between longevity and seniority further as a former rep you should also know merger policy and that in 1991 Date of hire was removed!! Further, you should know and fully understand all of the dynamics of this unique case and why the ruling came down as it did.

Now how can the UAL, NWA and the DAL merger committees all state that given all of the information they conclude that the award is fair yet you as a former rep never having even read the entire award feel justified in your assessment that it violates section 45???

WD`

What Whiskey said. Anyone who believes that the award should have contained fences that the East didn't argue for needs to famliarize himself with How Arbitration Works by Elkouri & Elkouri. Someone who fancies himself as a union leader needs to know this stuff. Mitigating the damage the East did to themselves was not the neutral's role. By stubbornly clinging to their DOH pipe dream (even after they were cautioned that it would not fly) AAA essentially turned this into a baseball-style arbitration, and they lost. They almost certainly could have emerged from this with a better deal but it would have had to have been something they strategized for and articulated, not a consolation prize for trying to hit it out of the park and striking out instead.

 

[Tomct]

Just a quick question. What if AWA waited for another 3-6 months and just picked apart the remainder of what would have been left AFTER CHAPTER 7. (Liquidation) The east guys should THANK their lucky stars that they were purchased and NOT on the street! Sorry, but you are WASTING your time with this Bull SH!T!! Start focusing on getting something that WILL happen....like maybe a BETTER CONTRACT!!

 

[Turtle21]

Just a quick question. What if AWA waited for another 3-6 months and just picked apart the remainder of what would have been left AFTER CHAPTER 7. (Liquidation) The east guys should THANK their lucky stars that they were purchased and NOT on the street! Sorry, but you are WASTING your time with this Bull SH!T!! Start focusing on getting something that WILL happen....like maybe a BETTER CONTRACT!!

Now there is a pipe dream.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Just a quick question. What if AWA waited for another 3-6 months and just picked apart the remainder of what would have been left AFTER CHAPTER 7. (Liquidation) The east guys should THANK their lucky stars that they were purchased and NOT on the street! Sorry, but you are WASTING your time with this Bull SH!T!! Start focusing on getting something that WILL happen....like maybe a BETTER CONTRACT!!

Tomct,

Many have asked that question over the last two years. The deal with that is two fold while the labor groups would have been a little better off allowing all to be pink slipped and then offer immediate employment. The pain would arise from having allowed the certificate to go away in a ch 7 and then apply for routes under the AWA certificate. The second pain would be the thought of other carriers attempting to pick away at the carcus like buzzards on a kill.

Now what I can tell you is that something is in the pot now. Parker and Kirby have been spending a great deal of time in Chicago. This saga is far from over and we may see the biggest blow to the east side yet with a UAL combination. I can see several parts of both sides go away to make an even leaner stronger International carrier. Copy this post and show it again after the first of the year.

WD.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Just a quick question. What if AWA waited for another 3-6 months and just picked apart the remainder of what would have been left AFTER CHAPTER 7. (Liquidation) The east guys should THANK their lucky stars that they were purchased and NOT on the street! Sorry, but you are WASTING your time with this Bull SH!T!! Start focusing on getting something that WILL happen....like maybe a BETTER CONTRACT!!

Again, Don't have a dog in this fight; but, take my word for it, the original US Airways was NOT going to "liquidate, Go Out of Business" how ever you wish to put it. I have done consulting work for years, and did in fact work for a company at the time that did work for US Air, during the merger in question; and for obvious reasons I cannot devulge 'specific details' but wasn't going to happen.

But, the 'ignorant and un-informed' always 'believe' what they want. Think about it, if it was 'believed that US Air was Never going to survive' what benefit was there to the company (US Air and AWA both), in having people talk of that??? 10 point to the one smart enough to come up with the right answer!!!

Anyway, Not sure why people are spending so much time arguing about a 'list' that doesn't really mean anything?? Without a 'combined contract' the list is totally meaningless, and the way that I see it, there was 'very little chance' of getting a Serious (real money and bennies) contract before the list $hit came about; and now there is pretty much "Zero" chance now.

Just my $0.02 for what's it worth, now 'rant away'

DA

P.S. That whole 'de-certify alpa' thing is probably a good thing, as alpo hasn't represented the interests of its members for a long time, and either needs a "Big Wake-up Call" or to just DIE.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Again, Don't have a dog in this fight; but, take my word for it, the original US Airways was NOT going to "liquidate, Go Out of Business" how ever you wish to put it. I have done consulting work for years, and did in fact work for a company at the time that did work for US Air, during the merger in question; and for obvious reasons I cannot devulge 'specific details' but wasn't going to happen.

But, the 'ignorant and un-informed' always 'believe' what they want. Think about it, if it was 'believed that US Air was Never going to survive' what benefit was there to the company (US Air and AWA both), in having people talk of that??? 10 point to the one smart enough to come up with the right answer!!!

Anyway, Not sure why people are spending so much time arguing about a 'list' that doesn't really mean anything?? Without a 'combined contract' the list is totally meaningless, and the way that I see it, there was 'very little chance' of getting a Serious (real money and bennies) contract before the list $hit came about; and now there is pretty much "Zero" chance now.

Just my $0.02 for what's it worth, now 'rant away'

DA

P.S. That whole 'de-certify alpa' thing is probably a good thing, as alpo hasn't represented the interests of its members for a long time, and either needs a "Big Wake-up Call" or to just DIE.

So basically what you are saying is that those SEC filings were false and that really AAA had more than enough capital to not only emerge for BK but sustain as well?? Man I guess any day now the exchange commission will announce the fraud and people will be indicted soon huh??

Wake up man they were dead and the casket was headed to the ground!!

WD.

 

[Contract]

what was the name of the company you did consulting work for Planedrvr? Certainly that would not be confidential information....LOL

 

[JT8D]

Tomct,



Now what I can tell you is that something is in the pot now. Parker and Kirby have been spending a great deal of time in Chicago.

WD.

The last time "something was in the pot" Parker got his ass handed to him on Capital Hill and then went ripping around Scottsdale drunk in his Beamer... followed by being sentenced to do time at a jail for women.

I don't think "something in the pot" over there is necessarily a good thing.

 

[xanderman]

Something in the pot!?!? Yeah! It's called a turd...