Alpa Executive Council Says No To AAA's Request To Vacate Arbitration Award.

[FDJ2]

Parker and Kirby have been spending a great deal of time in Chicago. This saga is far from over and we may see the biggest blow to the east side yet with a UAL combination. I can see several parts of both sides go away to make an even leaner stronger International carrier. Copy this post and show it again after the first of the year.

WD.

Won't happen. I'm not saying Parker and others may not be drooling at the possibility and might even make a formal proposal, but it aint in the cards, at least not in the near term.

 

[Turtle21]

.. Think about it, if it was 'believed that US Air was Never going to survive' what benefit was there to the company (US Air and AWA both), in having people talk of that??? 10 point to the one smart enough to come up with the right answer!!

Uh, the price would be below actual value? Of course it wasn't going Ch7.

In fact, I think another trip through bankruptcy would be good before the next merger.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Won't happen. I'm not saying Parker and others may not be drooling at the possibility and might even make a formal proposal, but it aint in the cards, at least not in the near term.

I'm not so sure this time. I never thought you guys were a good fit as the route structure just didn't make sense. I am still tired form this one and I feel it that it's about to happen all over again...

WD.

 

[FDJ2]

I'm not so sure this time. WD.

The issue is that neither carrier is a failing carrier facing possible liquidation without the merger. There is no mood on Capitol Hill to allow large network carriers to merge unless one is facing imminent liquidation without the merger. It goes beyond whether they would be a good fit or not. While some may wrongly question the power of Congress in mergers, let me assure you it far exceeds that of the DOJ, DOT and Wallstreet. As one Senator put it during the LCC attempted hostile takeover of DAL, "Wallstreet doesn't make public policy," and neither does the DOT or DOJ I might add. Believe me when I tell you, if Congress is opposed to the merger it wont happen.

Some of the issues in such a merger are, the follow on mergers of other network carriers it would spark, service overlap, reduce service due to "synergies", job loss, and in LCC's case, the inability to successfully execute their current merger.

JMHO, but the more likely scenario is a code share agreement with UAL similar to that achieved by DAL,CAL and NWA.

Of course I've been wrong before, just ask my wife.
I'll leave you with the last word on the matter.

 

[AA717driver]

FDJ--Wall Street IS what makes public policy--if it's in their interest.

Every 'Congresswhore' is owned by someone. Generally, it's by a company or companies that are in the F500.

Take a look at where your Representative and Senator's spouses work. Who's BOD are they on? What group do they lobby for?

If anyone here STILL believes the legislative process is even the slightest bit uncorrupted, you're either ignorant or delusional. Just look at the net worth of those in Congress. They didn't start with that kind of money and they shure as he!! didn't get there by saving their pay. TC

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I agree with Whiskey, yet again.

Somethings up.

 

[737 Pylt]

I agree with Whiskey, yet again.

Somethings up.

Grog:
Just don't drop your keys in front of him!:blush: :laugh:

Its funny listening to him about the "apparent toast" of Us Airways.
Why don't you ask him about when the Air Wisconsin pilots' money was stollen and invested in USAir first so AWAC pilots should be above seniority of all AWA pilots and the fact that it wasn't AWA that swooped to the rescue. It was AWAC/EASTSHORE AVIATION!

737

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ--Wall Street IS what makes public policy--if it's in their interest.

What's in their interest is getting re-elected and maintaining power. Supporting mergers that reduce air travel options and therefore negatively effects commerce in their home state or district does not make the job of getting re-elected any easier.

There are plenty of interests and interest groups beyond a narrow segment of wall street.

 

[Sandhawk]

Mayby PCl 128 could just write a check to the east side and score a cool jet job

Wouldn't be the first time......................



LOL

 

[PCL_128]

Therein lies your problem!! Now from current rep to former rep, have you even bothered to read the ENTIRE award?? All of the protection were contained within the award itself. You seem to be one of those who fails to understand the real difference between longevity and seniority further as a former rep you should also know merger policy and that in 1991 Date of hire was removed!! Further, you should know and fully understand all of the dynamics of this unique case and why the ruling came down as it did.

Now how can the UAL, NWA and the DAL merger committees all state that given all of the information they conclude that the award is fair yet you as a former rep never having even read the entire award feel justified in your assessment that it violates section 45???

WD`

I've read most of the award. I disagree with Nic's decision to use his crystal ball to determine the career expectations of the East pilots by determining that USAir would have liquidated had the West not come along. Making such a determination is outside of his responsibilities. He shouldn't be using "what if" scenarios to determine career expectations of the East pilots.

I'm fully award of current merger policy and the lacking of DOH. I'm not even saying that DOH should have been the way to go in this case. Far from it. However, Nic awarded a windfall to the West pilots by not putting appropriate fences in place on this award.

 

[PCL_128]

So in your little dream world how would you combine the lists? (this should be interesting)

The list isn't really the problem. The problem is the lack of appropriate fences. Nic should have included long-term fences to preserve the upgrade expectations of the East pilots.

 

[AA717driver]

I agree, too, that an arbitrator should not "look into the future".

But, how do you integrate furloughed pilots with those on the property?

It's a mess regardless of how you view it. TC

P.S.--Since someone brought up Air Wisconsin, this integration scenario is eerily similar to the ARW/MVA integration in the mid-'80's. ARW, being the big dog (at least that's what they thought) didn't bother negotiating with MVA and requested binding arbitration from the start, thinking they'd get DOH at a minimum (an advantage to the ARW group) and might get an advantageous ratio of the 'much weaker MVA group'.

The arbitrator saw through that and produced a 1-for-1 (or something advantageous to the MVA guys) ratio that destroyed the ARW pilots. I've never seen a group so emotionally devastated by an integration. ARW was a relatively stagnant airline and this integration sat many people in the FO seat for a LONG time.

The anger in both groups tore that airline apart. I was only there for one year but it was miserable. I see the same scenario for the AWA/USAir groups once they are combined.

 

[TWA Dude]

I disagree with Nic's decision to use his crystal ball to determine the career expectations of the East pilots by determining that USAir would have liquidated had the West not come along. Making such a determination is outside of his responsibilities.

Exactly how is this outside of his responsibilities? "Maintain Career expectations" is in ALPA Policy but it's never defined. In other words, it's open to interpretation. Policy makes the duly agreed-to arbitrator qualifed to make that interpretation. You can disagree with Nicolau's decision but to claim he acted improperly requires some concrete evidence. Nobody other than the AAA MEC (and I guess you) thinks the Nic Award is improper. No judge will ever question it, I guarantee you.

 

[TWA Dude]

The anger in both groups tore that airline apart. I was only there for one year but it was miserable. I see the same scenario for the AWA/USAir groups once they are combined.

TC, you pessimist. My rational presence alone should be able to stabilize things here. Of course if it doesn't I'm stuck with going back to AA and the risk of being paired with you again. Let's hopes things work out...

 

[PCL_128]

Exactly how is this outside of his responsibilities?

He isn't qualified to determine whether USAir would have survived without Parker. For all Nic knows, some private equity firm was poised to make an offer for USAir until Parker came along. Speculating on the possible liquidation of USAir isn't proper. Career expectations should be determined based on current airframes, planned deliveries, and planned retirements, not some assumed liquidation of the airline.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Grog:
Just don't drop your keys in front of him!:blush: :laugh:

Its funny listening to him about the "apparent toast" of Us Airways.
Why don't you ask him about when the Air Wisconsin pilots' money was stollen and invested in USAir first so AWAC pilots should be above seniority of all AWA pilots and the fact that it wasn't AWA that swooped to the rescue. It was AWAC/EASTSHORE AVIATION!

737

I see your gilfriend scope out RJ's let you post again careful she gets real upset when you converse with other pilots on this forum. :bawling:

AWAC, since I was with AWAC at the time when the vote came up for us to take concession to as mgt put "help save UAL" I voted and championed a no vote. AWAC was making money thus making money for UAL which in my opinion didn't warrent a pay cut for us. Management LIED to the pilots to get that yes vote and it was narrow as hell at that! They never gave any money to UAL and ultimatly lost the contract. The AWAC pilots took to arb and won so good on them for that!!!!

The eastshore deal was for rights to be a regional partner not a merger with AWAC. While personally I would have very little objection to such a deal it really doesn't make sense for the mainline. I have always felt that your mainline should own and operate your rj's however that opportunity was lost yrs ago when the big boys refused to operate "those little airplanes" bad move by ALPA on that...

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I've read most of the award. I disagree with Nic's decision to use his crystal ball to determine the career expectations of the East pilots by determining that USAir would have liquidated had the West not come along. Making such a determination is outside of his responsibilities. He shouldn't be using "what if" scenarios to determine career expectations of the East pilots.

I'm fully award of current merger policy and the lacking of DOH. I'm not even saying that DOH should have been the way to go in this case. Far from it. However, Nic awarded a windfall to the West pilots by not putting appropriate fences in place on this award.

Not true!! Now let me tell you why. AAA was shrinking and returning large a/c for regional airplanes. They were furloughed 18yrs deep which was 33% of their pilot population. Career expectation was nil and was evident in the remaining active pilots minds as they were resigning in large numbers. They had no attrition. Now, out in the west we were expanding, hiring and taking delivery of new airbus aircraft. The west by not fault of our own became stagnant. We stopped taking delivery of a/c and stopped hiring. We had a pool of applicants who had already been hired and just waiting for class dates.

The east by all accounts capitalized on our stagnation as they were calling back furloughed pilots who without this merger never had any expectation of returning to USAirways!!

They got several windfalls along the way not even counting remaining employed in the face of certain liquidation. The 757 LOU followed by the E190 arb which was a big windfall in it'self and then the ultimate insult was the top 517 getting DOH taking our top pilot from #1 to #519 Huge windfall!!!!

They never once wanted to deal fairly with us instead always insisting on DOH or kiss their a$$es!! They told (the MEC) all of their pilots that they would get DOH and would take over PHX and LAS and if there was anything left "those west people can have that"!!! The east MEC boosted their pilots expectation so high that there was no other choice at that point but to continue their path.

We on the west have sacrificed plenty to make this work and do so in the face of constant insult, I know because I was there and lived it!!! We simply refused to give anymore. They wanted ARB they got ARB and it was more than fair even though EVERY west pilot LOST relative seniority not longetivity. We got NO WINDFALL, what we got was not FK'ed by them...

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

He isn't qualified to determine whether USAir would have survived without Parker.

It's obvious that you haven't read the Award fully or carefully. I wish I could cut and paste it but my version of Acrobat won't convert to text. I typed this quote from page 25, after Nic summarized both sides' proposals:

Our view is that neither picture is persuasive. The US Airways reliance on post-merger statements by America West’s CEO, clearly made to assuage growing concerns by America West pilots who had seen a post-merger end to hiring, an increasing return of long-furloughed US Airways pilots and a flattening in their own advancement, is misplaced. Equally so is America West’s insistence that US Airways was about to disappear. Yet, it cannot be disputed that there were differences in the financial condition of both carriers and that US Airways was the weaker. This necessarily means that career expectations differed and the US Airways pilots had more to gain from the merger than their new colleagues.


You fail to give Nicolau enough credit for knowing how to do his job.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I love how you guys argue after the fact that Nic is suddenly not qualified to arbitrate the list.

Nic was agreed to by both sides as the arbiter. He has had a long career and this is not the first merger he's handled. The only reason he's unfit now is because the East MEC didn't get to F-over the West pilots.

It just shows that the East's case was weak and after many calls by Nic to return to the table they declined and let their case speak for itself.

So, they got what they got. The widebody flying and relative seniority with pilots who brought jobs.

 

[PositiveRate]

Why do you even respond to PCL's nonsence?

Here's some background on him:

Former Gulfstream pilot who paid beaucoup bucks to get his early 121 time...go as far as paying to be in a 121 cockpit.

This hypocrite then took his attitude to Pinnacle.

Somehow he became involved with ALPA and even upgraded.

PCL - you comment on what's going on as if you have some sort of expertise to draw on, but you are still the same old scumbag, just older and cockier.

- Admittedly, you have only read "most" of the award.

- You have not read the transcripts or worked for either airline.

- You believe fences would fix this because you are easily persuaded by people who are wrong - this obvious personality flaw hasn't changed as someone once convinced you that paying to sit in a 121 cockpit was a good idea while the rest of us earned our jobs the honorable way.

I'm constantly amazed at how brazen and off base you are. And the scariest part is a scumbag like yourself was involved in any way with our union.

Go away troll. Scumbag, PFT dickwads like yourself are the first to sell your brothers down the road. You'd probably lick the shoes of Gen Lee and the likes if they made you part of their crew.

If you had even the smallest modicum of integrity you'd see this situation for what it is - Your support for a group of pilots who are attempting to take a national union hostage and screw over a pilot group they see as "lesser" does not surprise me.