Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[PCL_128]

....and how are those contract negotiations going there for ya at the tranny?

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.

Go somewhere else and continue your ALPA sermons dude.

What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!

 

[spinproof]

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.




What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!

Well ALPO butt boy the same can be said for you!! Big talk from a right seat dinosaur driver!

 

[Ameriagle]

"They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar."

Dude, maybe you should take responsibility for your own negotiations, and stop making excuses! Your lack of progress is nobody's fault but your own.

 

[Ameriagle]

"What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!"

Is this supposed to be a slight? This entire thread has been perpetuated by union pilots arguing about why there union is no longer effective! Sign me up!

 

[sioux1]

I work here and I do like it. It is probably the easiest job I've ever had. That being said this whole thread is just silly. We should not be comparing ourselves to UAL in any way. UALdriver does make some good points with total compensation. I did a calculation with retirement ours vs UAL. Here is what I came up with.

I used 2 pilots starting today at both carriers. For the AAY pilot, I upgraded him at 2 years. For the UAL pilot I upgraded him only at year ten, and kept him on the 737 the whole time. I also used a 70 hour guarantee for AAY and a 65 hour guarantee for UAL.
After 10 years, here is what their retirement looks like assuming no appreciation.

UAL - $97,590 AAY - $23,282

Note - The AAY pilot would have to contribute $46,564 of his own money to achieve that amount vs. the UAL pilot's contribution of 0.

I used current pay rates only. So if you add in our future raises (don't know UAL's) maybe you can add 5g's at most to our 401k. Still nowhere near equal. They also double our per diem rates. We also brag about being home every night and accept lower pay in light of that. While that is nice, in the long run it costs the company less to bring us home every night, so we should be making more from it not less. Also whoever included our profit sharing at $8 an hour is giving disinformation. While that was the case last year, that was anomoly. We will be lucky to see $2 an hour going forward if any at all.

I don't think we should be bragging about our rates at all. It is true that we seem to be working on them and that is what we should continue to focus our efforts on, not bragging on this board. This is after UAL took almost 50% pay cuts 5 years ago.

As far as a union here, I think that may eventually come, but we need much more participation for that to happen. Our current participation is about 10 guys that are burned out and with good reason. I think the negotiating power of a union would certainly help around here. At least then you have some teeth when you negotiate. But then again we need much more participation for that to work. I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that. Too many internal problems.

We have a good thing going at Allegiant. I really enjoy this place. But we should focus our efforts internally to help organize this place better and not argue with pilots at other carriers. We should be using thier knowledge and experience (both mistakes and successes) to further our own compensation and thus every other pilot groups compensation. We are all tied together in this.

 

[Mr Wu]

Well, ain't that just wonderful. Thanks for undercutting our $137/hr rate, which is from a contract that's already been amendable for 3 years and was signed in 2001. While we try to negotiate something better, you brag about a rate that is already $13/hr less than ours. Thanks.

You keep bitching about our MD80 rate but you don't say a word about how your own 737 rates stand up against other 737 operators. About $25/hr less I believe. Watch out for those glass walls...

 

[Mr Wu]

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.

Seriously duuuuuude, you came from Pinnacle and Gulf$tream. Give it a rest with the backstabbing.

 

[PCL_128]

I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that.

I think you would be wrong. UALdriver is smart enough to realize that ALPA isn't perfect, but it's the best thing that air line pilots have for improving our profession.

 

[PCL_128]

You keep bitching about our MD80 rate but you don't say a word about how your own 737 rates stand up against other 737 operators. About $25/hr less I believe. Watch out for those glass walls...

Top Captain rates for 737-700 Captains, highest to lowest:

SWA - $198
ALA - $154
DAL - $154
CAL - $147
AWA - $142
UAL - $133
AAA - $125

Avg - $150/hr
AAI - $153/hr

Looks like we come in above average, even with a 7-year old contract that has been amendable for over three years. Now, I'm not defending our pay rates, as I still think they suck compared to what they should be, but you are completely wrong about our rates being substandard. We have 737 Captains making more than widebody Captains at some of the legacies.

 

[Desert1]

I work here and I do like it. It is probably the easiest job I've ever had. That being said this whole thread is just silly. We should not be comparing ourselves to UAL in any way. UALdriver does make some good points with total compensation. I did a calculation with retirement ours vs UAL. Here is what I came up with.

I used 2 pilots starting today at both carriers. For the AAY pilot, I upgraded him at 2 years. For the UAL pilot I upgraded him only at year ten, and kept him on the 737 the whole time. I also used a 70 hour guarantee for AAY and a 65 hour guarantee for UAL.
After 10 years, here is what their retirement looks like assuming no appreciation.

UAL - $97,590 AAY - $23,282

Note - The AAY pilot would have to contribute $46,564 of his own money to achieve that amount vs. the UAL pilot's contribution of 0.

I used current pay rates only. So if you add in our future raises (don't know UAL's) maybe you can add 5g's at most to our 401k. Still nowhere near equal. They also double our per diem rates. We also brag about being home every night and accept lower pay in light of that. While that is nice, in the long run it costs the company less to bring us home every night, so we should be making more from it not less. Also whoever included our profit sharing at $8 an hour is giving disinformation. While that was the case last year, that was anomoly. We will be lucky to see $2 an hour going forward if any at all.

I don't think we should be bragging about our rates at all. It is true that we seem to be working on them and that is what we should continue to focus our efforts on, not bragging on this board. This is after UAL took almost 50% pay cuts 5 years ago.

As far as a union here, I think that may eventually come, but we need much more participation for that to happen. Our current participation is about 10 guys that are burned out and with good reason. I think the negotiating power of a union would certainly help around here. At least then you have some teeth when you negotiate. But then again we need much more participation for that to work. I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that. Too many internal problems.

We have a good thing going at Allegiant. I really enjoy this place. But we should focus our efforts internally to help organize this place better and not argue with pilots at other carriers. We should be using thier knowledge and experience (both mistakes and successes) to further our own compensation and thus every other pilot groups compensation. We are all tied together in this.

Sioux, good post and you make some valid points. You'll forgive me however if I take issue with your repeated use of the term 'bragging' when referring to the AAY posts. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your thread, but you appear to be chastising the AAY guys that are merely defending our company (and yours?) against false and inaccurate accusations.

Not sure how much you've read, but you may want to take another look at the thread from the beginning. I say this because you appear to believe the AAY pilots started this confrontation. Not true: We're not bragging about our rates, we're setting the record straight. Look through the posts, you'll notice a series of accusations and unprovoked attacks levied against AAY (non-union, undercutters, etc). One went so far as to use his jump seat as a threat against non-union carriers (Quote: you'd better move to LAS because more and more Union pilots are refusing to give jumpseat rides to people who are stabbing us in the back.).

You're right, we do have it good here at AAY. But that didn't come without a lot of effort and sacrifice from our pilot group. A lot of guys that came before you have put forth a great deal of effort to gain the new rates that you now enjoy. We HAVE been "using our knowledge and experience to further our own compensation", it's been going on for 3 years and we have made remarkable improvements. As a pilot group, we are proud of our accomplishments and some on this board feel we should set the record straight. Again, not bragging.

Too many have worked too hard to take this garbage lying down. As you'll see in my post count, I seldom post on this board, but sometimes you have to take a stand.

As I'd mentioned in the previous post, my heart goes out to the good folks at UAL, they've lost a lot and deserve much better. But I disagree with the accusation that we are the culprits and are responsible for their loss. As you've seen on this thread, that line of reasoning can become a very slippery slope...

D1

 

[Thug Life]

Seriously duuuuuude, you came from Pinnacle and Gulf$tream. Give it a rest with the backstabbing.

PCL 128. All this talk from you and you paid for your job at Gulfstream? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[chperplt]

PCL 128. All this talk from you and you paid for your job at Gulfstream? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Funny... huh?

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Top Captain rates for 737-700 Captains, highest to lowest:

SWA - $198
ALA - $154
DAL - $154
CAL - $147
AWA - $142
UAL - $133
AAA - $125

Avg - $150/hr
AAI - $153/hr

Looks like we come in above average, even with a 7-year old contract that has been amendable for over three years. Now, I'm not defending our pay rates, as I still think they suck compared to what they should be, but you are completely wrong about our rates being substandard. We have 737 Captains making more than widebody Captains at some of the legacies.

Don't forget to include American Airlines at $163/hr for a 12 year B737 captain.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Sioux1,
Not sure how you planned this, but how did you arrive at an AAY pilot investing over $46,000 and ending up with only $23,000??? Are you saying that we would actually lose 50% of our money by investing it in a 401K? I'm sure I must be reading that wrong; please explain.

Also, you didn't include the pay difference vs upgrade. I did a simple comparison, kind of like your retirement comparison a couple months ago which showed an AAY pilot should earn approx $170,000 more than a UAL pilot over a 12 year period. Calculate that into the retirement of both airlines and you still come out over $110,000 ahead after 12 years by being at Allegiant and that doesn't include any raises in pay.

 

[PCL_128]

Don't forget to include American Airlines at $163/hr for a 12 year B737 captain.

Those are 737-800s, which we don't fly. If we get them, our payrate is about $10 higher than the legacy carriers flying it.

 

[armani]

Those rates will never be seen again.

 

[FO 4 Life]

Let's be honest about comparing United to Allegiant.

United Airlines was founded in 1926.
Allegiant Airlines was founded in 1997.

Nothing left to say and I don't even work there.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Wow, I'm gone for 3 days and more misinformation being spread. OK, here it goes...I'll start with the "correct me if I'm wrong" by Daytona flyer

ALPA on the other hand unsucessfully allowed management to lay off thousands of pilots and airport employees without a single payment

Neither of the statments on either side of the "and" are true. 1) Laid off pilots did get some "payments," at least at UAL and 2) UA laid off 2,172 pilots. ALPA is not management and cannot necessarily control what actions management takes when they run the company on behalf of their shareholders, assuming it's legal, of course.

....while simultaneously allowing them to take millions of dollars in wages and retirement funds...

I assume the "them" you refer to is the PBGC? The pensions at UAL were underfunded by ERISA guidelines and were seized by the PBGC. What should ALPA have done to stop the PBGC from seizing our underfunded pensions, or illegally underfunded pensions of any ALPA represented airline? Is ALPA above the law? Did ALPA fail because they didn't try to break the law?

After all this, they also allowed management to take millions of dollars in bonuses.

ALPA doesn't control executive compensation- the company's board does through the compensation committee here at UAL and many other publicly held companies for that matter. You act as if executive compensation is a failure of ALPA. Could you explain to me, keeping in mind UA's corporate governance structure, how ALPA "allowed" management to take millions of dollars in bonuses?

Now ALPA was successful in HELPING cut the equity grab UA management tried when we exited bankruptcy. Is that what you're talking about, because frankly I'm not sure how you think any union can "control" executive compensation at any publicly held company?

You seem to be shooting from the hip in this entire post? I think you depend upon flightinfo.com for your "factual" information, and it shows with posts like this.

ualdriver,
Let me see if I understand this correctly, according to you:

-Under ALPA's representation, management was able to furlough nearly 2200 pilots.

-Under ALPA's representation, UAL pilots lost millions in pension and retirment funds.

-Under ALPA's representation, management successfully cut your pay rates after 9/11 and then again during bankruptcy, while simultaneously awarding themselves millions in bonuses for themselves.

Am I missing something here? What the h*ll is it that ALPA does for you guys again?
Aren't you paying ALPA a thousand dollars a year to prevent stuff like this?

I don't claim to know where you get your information from either, but it seems like you'd be a better fit for gay porn because you're getting screwed from both ends and you keep on begging for more.

 

[sioux1]

Sioux1,
Not sure how you planned this, but how did you arrive at an AAY pilot investing over $46,000 and ending up with only $23,000??? Are you saying that we would actually lose 50% of our money by investing it in a 401K? I'm sure I must be reading that wrong; please explain.

Also, you didn't include the pay difference vs upgrade. I did a simple comparison, kind of like your retirement comparison a couple months ago which showed an AAY pilot should earn approx $170,000 more than a UAL pilot over a 12 year period. Calculate that into the retirement of both airlines and you still come out over $110,000 ahead after 12 years by being at Allegiant and that doesn't include any raises in pay.

Sure. I'm saying you had to put in 46,000 of your own money to get the extra 23,000 (from the company). You would end up with 69,000 total. If you want to compare apples to apples you could say that a UAL guy could contribute 46,000 (no match)into their 401k and they would end up with about 140,000 total. They still get about 94,000 without puting in a dime.

As for pay difference you are right. I came up with 133,860 after 10 years given the same assumptions. (I put the UAL guy on reserve for his first 3 years and reserve CA for year 10, which also adds about 2800 to his retirement over my previous numbers). Of course with any change in upgrade here that changes significantly. You also would have to subtract 46,000 from that for 401k contributions. They would also make about 69,000 in perdiem over those 10 years vs. us making about 11,000. Of course they would spend more on a 4 day trip. Many variables.

As for Desert1, I appreciate all you have done and the fact you want to defend our hard work. Thank you!! And I think if you read my post again you will see that I said we have about 10 hard working guys that are burned out because of all the hard work they have done. There is still much work to be done none the less. Please don't take offense to this. Most of us have not forgotten our history but it shouldn't be thrown in our face every time we suggest we want more. I know very well where we came from.

 

[Desert1]

As for Desert1, I appreciate all you have done and the fact you want to defend our hard work.

I'd like to say thanks Sioux...but as much as I'd like to take credit, I can't. Let's just say I may not be who you think I am. Anonymity has it's benefits/advantages...

Let's leave it at that.

D1

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Okay, I'm sick of trash talk, time for some positive words.
I agree that our compensation package is a work in progress, but at least we're making progress.
We deserve more and with hard work and some negotiating we'll get more, but the hell if I'm gonna sit quietly while some UAL guy comes and bashes us on our own thread and negates our hard work. We did a damn good job during one of the most financially trying quarters in airline history and it paid off. Nicely done.

 

[Mr Wu]

but the hell if I'm gonna sit quietly while some UAL guy comes and bashes us on our own thread and negates our hard work.

It's the legacy version of "Mesa Sucks." You know where you have a sh!tty situation but don't want to admit it to yourself so you go in search of someone that in your own mind has it worse than you so you can bash them and feel better about yourself.

 

[Thug Life]

Funny... huh?

Real funny.

 

[chperplt]

Real funny.

I'm glad you agree... Made my day!

 

[Thug Life]

I'm glad you agree... Made my day!

Right. You don't have to pay me to fly. I'll pay you.

 

[Thug Life]

I'm glad you agree... Made my day!

Wonder how much those 4700+ hts cost him??

 

[chperplt]

Wonder how much those 4700+ hts cost him??

It was all worth it for him.... he made it to the big show. :laugh:

 

[fifinella]

It was all worth it for him.... he made it to the big show. :laugh:

Let me get this straight....PCL 128 paid for his job at Gulfstream, then went to Pinnacle, (nearly the lowest paid if not the lowest paid pilots flying RJs coupled with caustic management/labor issues) and now at Air Tran aka Valuejet...

He made it alright - runnin' with the big dogs and pissn on the big tree.........

 

[Ameriagle]

Let me get this straight....PCL 128 paid for his job at Gulfstream, then went to Pinnacle, (nearly the lowest paid if not the lowest paid pilots flying RJs coupled with caustic management/labor issues) and now at Air Tran aka Valuejet...

He made it alright - runnin' with the big dogs and pissn on the big tree.........

This is the point in the thread where PCL 128 always runs out of things to say! Ever notice that?

 

[fifinella]

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.

Dude, don't forget how you got to where you are. Your career choices don't reflect the epitome of 'raising the bar' by any means. I wish you the best but please, before you start disparaging others, look in the mirror.

What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!

Could it be the web link to ALPA at the bottom of your posts? Just a thought :erm: