Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[Ameriagle]

"The ONLY way you guys will get your rates higher in the future is if Union airlines raise them above current levels."

This statement contradicts every argument you have made in your post......not that I agree with it! Just thought I would point that out!

 

[Jakejett]

I was an ALPA member for 6.5 years. Glad to have nothing to do with them.

ALPA had the opportunity years ago to negotiate industry leading wages for ALL of its members. ALPA instead chose to treat it's pilot groups differently and separately, regional and major pilots. ALPA favored the major pilots and treated the regional pilots like second class citizens. End result, rapid expansion of the regional airlines which really aren't "regional in nature", they fly all over the U.S., Mexico, Hawaii, and the Caribbean by pilots making "deplorable" wages, some new hires qualifying for food stamps. This told airline management that pilots would fly for lower pay and thus management was able to lower pay at the majors. Nice job ALPA!!!!

When I was an ALPA member we voted on the age 65 issue. It was voted down. What did ALPA do? They got the issue passed anyway. Great way to support the majority.

ALPA is a joke.

Allegiant pilots have an unofficial, in-house union. The pilot group is strong and negotiates as one entity and voice. One day it will be an official union, when the time is right.

United pilots DID NOT negotiate their current contract and payscale overnight. It took MANY years to get where you are now.

So it angers you that pilots fly for less than they are worth? Then you must really hate the FOs you fly with because United has some of the worst starting pay out there...and a new hire will struggle at low pay for YEARS. Great job UAL ALPA!!!! United used to be an industry leader that all pilots looked up to but is nothing but an embarassment now. What happened over there?

United parking 10-15 planes? Allegiant adding planes? Good luck over there at UAL.

At least the Allegiant pilots are moving in the right direction so don't knock them down.

 

[NEDude]

Pilot pay is a lot like selling a house - your house is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. A pilot is only worth what someone will pay for him/her to fly that airplane. Name a company in this industry who is raising the bar when it comes to pilot pay - anyone. The fact is not one airline is "raising" the bar, and as mentioned ALPA and its "dis-unity" has a lot to do with it.

As ALPA (as well as the Teamsters and other independent unions) has failed to insist on a single rate industry wide, ALPA and its members have lost the right to complain about pay rates at other airlines. Get your own house in order before you start throwing stones at other companies and unions.

 

[Desert1]

I've learned alot from the pilots at such airlines at Allegiant, Skybus, and Virgin. As I read these arguments/rationalizations, I'm wondering if UA ALPA should take a different tact with our negotiations in the up and coming months. I think we should argue to eliminate our retirement, lower our wages to the lowest of the ultra-low cost carriers, and get rid of our work rules.

Hey UAL,

As you can see from the number of posts I've made, I seldom post on here,...but sometimes I just can't resist (or I'm really bored).

The above statement struck me in particular-not because of it's content, but moreso due to the origin. For a dues-paying voting member of UALPA to even mention retirement is truly the most hypocritical, if not painful statement I can recall reading on this site. If I were a Delta pilot I'd be truly incensed. Question: Were you on the property as a voting member when UAL commited the previously unheard of step of dismantling the retirement plans of it's members? Yes UAL was the one who succesfully broke ground on the worst of modern day labor crimes: going after retirement. There was a day when ALPA would have never stood by and allow management to gut the retirement fund. It was certainly a watershead event in US labor history. Yep, not just airlines...all US industry used UAL as a precedent and followed suit. Nice going.

You'll forgive me if I chuckle, considering the messenger in this case.

Again while ALPA continues to charge it's constituents while losing ground and giving up traditionaly sacred covenants of labor, we are actively and succesfully pursuing improvements in pay and benefits for our members--at no charge.

And we'll continue to do so, including retirement.

As for a union drive, we're doing quite well without one, but the day may come. However, as many prior ALPA pilots in our ranks will tell you, it probably won't be ALPA. ALPA did wonders for TWA, Mesa, Sun Country, etc. Their support and bargaining acumen were nothing short of criminaly incompetent.

D1

 

[maxpayrollcruz]

Hey guys, we are undercutting the market here, remember? UAL services BLI-RNO markets as well! Right? Oh wait....no, they don't.....

 

[Dizel8]

Yes UAL was the one who succesfully broke ground on the worst of modern day labor crimes: going after retirement.

D1

Actually, I think it was USAirways and U-ALPA that went down the pension route first.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

I don't mind unions, but ALPA seems like they do a horrible job.

Consider the United Autoworkers Union...During the most difficult financial period in their history, they successfully negotiated seperation payments in amounts ranging from $30,000 to $140,000 in exchange for laying off employees.

ALPA on the other hand unsucessfully allowed management to lay off thousands of pilots and airport employees without a single payment, while simultaneously allowing them to take millions of dollars in wages and retirement funds. After all this, they also allowed management to take millions of dollars in bonuses.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Damn double post!

 

[crxpilot]

ualdriver,

Etoper,,,,,I see you are up to your old tricks again.

 

[Desert1]

Actually, I think it was USAirways and U-ALPA that went down the pension route first.

Perfect!...(hand-wringing)...we can blame those nasty non-union undercutters at USAirways for lowering the bar...

...oh...wait, they're union...ALPA?...

Thanks Dizel...you're probably right. Although one may have preceded the other, both carriers followed suit and ALPA stood by while management gutted the retirement accounts of their paying constituents.

...and for UAL to bash small non-union (undercutting) LCCs about retirement...after having dumped their entire pension plan onto the PBGC.

I sincerely wish UAL, USAir and every other carrier pilot the best in these tough times...but seriously folks, enough with the finger-pointing and blame game. It's pointless.

D1

 

[PCL_128]

I don't think that's true. In 1998, United Airlines was paying it's most senior widebody pilots $192/hr, then Delta came along with a new contract and raised the bar by paying $196/hr to it's most senior widebody pilots. That is the highest the pay ever went and the B737 pilot pay was quite a bit lower.

Where the hell are you getting your information? Not even close to accurate. UAL negotiated the most expensive pilot contract in history (at the time) in 2000. This was after an amazing show of unity during the "Summer of Love" in which the UAL pilots banded together to achieve a truly amazing contract. Top 737 rate? About $220/hr. The following year, the Delta pilots negotiated Contract '01, which broke UAL's record for the most expensive pilot contract in history. Top 737 rate? About $230/hr. Top widebody rate? About $320/hr. At the time, SWA 737 Captains topped out around $170/hr. In other words, it wasn't even close. Even today, 8 years later, the SWA "industry-leading" rate is 10% below the top rate negotiated prior to 9/11 by the ALPA carriers.

 

[NEDude]

The real reason legacy carrier pay is as bad as it currently is has nothing to do with Skybus, Allegiant, AirTran, Jet Blue etc. There have always been smaller lower cost carriers around.

No, the real reason is because our friends at Delta (an ALPA carrier BTW) decided that they were too good to fly regional jet and allowed the outsourcing of mainline type equipment to their regional affiliates. Soon after every ALPA carrier followed. Now the regionals are using 500 hour pilots being paid at welfare wages to fly aircraft used to replace mainline F28s, DC-9s and 737s.

That, my friends, is why wages are as low as they are these days. That is the big difference between this day and age and past decades. But somehow the ALPA mainline guys seem to "forget" that little detail of their proud past.

As I said earlier, take care of your own house before throwing stones at others.

 

[temcgrew]

No, the real reason is because our friends at Delta (an ALPA carrier BTW) decided that they were too good to fly regional jet and allowed the outsourcing of mainline type equipment to their regional affiliates. Soon after every ALPA carrier followed. Now the regionals are using 500 hour pilots being paid at welfare wages to fly aircraft used to replace mainline F28s, DC-9s and 737s.

well spoken, the "REPLACEMENT JETS" were supposed to be an alternate to the turbo-props. The slick marketing ploy at the time was that nobody wanted to fly on a small noisy turbo-prop anymore. 20 to 30 minute commuter flights turned into 3.5 hour block times that MD-80'S were doing for mainline.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Where the hell are you getting your information? Not even close to accurate. UAL negotiated the most expensive pilot contract in history (at the time) in 2000. This was after an amazing show of unity during the "Summer of Love" in which the UAL pilots banded together to achieve a truly amazing contract. Top 737 rate? About $220/hr. The following year, the Delta pilots negotiated Contract '01, which broke UAL's record for the most expensive pilot contract in history. Top 737 rate? About $230/hr. Top widebody rate? About $320/hr. At the time, SWA 737 Captains topped out around $170/hr. In other words, it wasn't even close. Even today, 8 years later, the SWA "industry-leading" rate is 10% below the top rate negotiated prior to 9/11 by the ALPA carriers.

Top widebody rate, $320/hr??? Where did you get that info?? 30 years ago maybe, but not within the past 10 years. Even FedEX and UPS's top rates are only around $230/hr and they've been climbing steadily.

 

[Colonel Savage]

Top widebody rate, $320/hr??? Where did you get that info?? 30 years ago maybe, but not within the past 10 years.

He's right. 747-4 UAL Capt Contract 2000, max longevity, 320/hr.

You gotta problem wid 'dat?

 

[PCL_128]

Top widebody rate, $320/hr??? Where did you get that info?? 30 years ago maybe, but not within the past 10 years. Even FedEX and UPS's top rates are only around $230/hr and they've been climbing steadily.

Wow, you new guys are really clueless about how much things have changed. The info came directly from page 44 of DAL Contract '01. Its the 2004 pre-concessionary pay for a 12-year 777 Captain. A 12-year FO on the same equipment made $219 an hour. Yes, that's right, as an FO! The FedEx and UPS payrates that you revere are still a far cry from what pilots made pre-9/11 at the legacies. And yes, even those vaunted SWA payscales are no comparison to the old UAL and DAL payscales.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Wow, you new guys are really clueless about how much things have changed. The info came directly from page 44 of DAL Contract '01. Its the 2004 pre-concessionary pay for a 12-year 777 Captain. A 12-year FO on the same equipment made $219 an hour. Yes, that's right, as an FO! The FedEx and UPS payrates that you revere are still a far cry from what pilots made pre-9/11 at the legacies. And yes, even those vaunted SWA payscales are no comparison to the old UAL and DAL payscales.

It looks like you're correct. I found the page I was looking for in my old book and the 1998 rate was $296/hr, not $196/hr. My mistake. Damn those guys took a huge pay cut!

 

[Mkubwa]

UAL negotiated the most expensive pilot contract in history (at the time) in 2000. This was after an amazing show of unity during the "Summer of Love" in which the UAL pilots banded together to achieve a truly amazing contract.

It's worthy to note that, at the time, the UAL employees (not all groups), owned a majority stake in UAL. A patsy management team was put into place that was far more pliant than previous management teams at UAL.

No one wants to talk about the ultimate in REAL control - OWNERSHIP. This concept is patly written off as unworkable: pilots fly airplanes, they don't own/run companies; the inmates running the asylum, etc. The idea is that the pilots themselves wouldn't manage the company. The BOD would be replaced and new management would be put into place that didn't espouse the standard Wharton/Harvard MBA-think that management is a separate class than the people who do the day-to-day work and are thus deserving of ridiculous salaries and benefit packages. Business is not theoretical physics - these guys are NOT the brightest bulbs in the room - don't forget that. MBA programs churn out new graduates like flight schools churn out new pilots (except at a much higher rate). In other words, this "talent" concept is just another marketing lie. They can be replaced, and for less. What is needed is a BOD with vision, power, and balls.

On the subject of employee ownership, everyone points to UAL and, saucer-eyed, says, "Fire burn Grog! No mess with fire!" Yeah, the United experiment didn't work out so well. Is it a Newtonian Law that it will never work? Isn't there a different way to structure a buyout? (There is.) There must be DISCIPLINE. Rick Dubinsky, one of the architects of the UAL ESOP, once stated, "We don't want to kill the golden goose. We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg." Clearly, that's not the way to go if you want a viable company going forward.

We must remember that management's duty is to increase the value of the company for the shareholders. Ownership means these "shareholders" are YOU and it means the direction of the company will be decided (with discretion, restraint, vision, and discipline - ideally) by your union leadership with your interests in mind - either as an employee OR as a shareholder but preferably both.

 

[ualdriver]

I don't mind unions, but ALPA seems like they do a horrible job.

ALPA on the other hand unsucessfully allowed management to lay off thousands of pilots and airport employees without a single payment, while simultaneously allowing them to take millions of dollars in wages and retirement funds. After all this, they also allowed management to take millions of dollars in bonuses.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Wow, I'm gone for 3 days and more misinformation being spread. OK, here it goes...I'll start with the "correct me if I'm wrong" by Daytona flyer

ALPA on the other hand unsucessfully allowed management to lay off thousands of pilots and airport employees without a single payment

Neither of the statments on either side of the "and" are true. 1) Laid off pilots did get some "payments," at least at UAL and 2) UA laid off 2,172 pilots. ALPA is not management and cannot necessarily control what actions management takes when they run the company on behalf of their shareholders, assuming it's legal, of course.

....while simultaneously allowing them to take millions of dollars in wages and retirement funds...

I assume the "them" you refer to is the PBGC? The pensions at UAL were underfunded by ERISA guidelines and were seized by the PBGC. What should ALPA have done to stop the PBGC from seizing our underfunded pensions, or illegally underfunded pensions of any ALPA represented airline? Is ALPA above the law? Did ALPA fail because they didn't try to break the law?

After all this, they also allowed management to take millions of dollars in bonuses.

ALPA doesn't control executive compensation- the company's board does through the compensation committee here at UAL and many other publicly held companies for that matter. You act as if executive compensation is a failure of ALPA. Could you explain to me, keeping in mind UA's corporate governance structure, how ALPA "allowed" management to take millions of dollars in bonuses?

Now ALPA was successful in HELPING cut the equity grab UA management tried when we exited bankruptcy. Is that what you're talking about, because frankly I'm not sure how you think any union can "control" executive compensation at any publicly held company?

You seem to be shooting from the hip in this entire post? I think you depend upon flightinfo.com for your "factual" information, and it shows with posts like this.

 

[ualdriver]

Thanks Dizel...you're probably right. Although one may have preceded the other, both carriers followed suit and ALPA stood by while management gutted the retirement accounts of their paying constituents.

Desert-

You can probably refer to the post I left Daytona as you seem to be as clueless about the loss of the UA pensions as he is.

You claim that ALPA "stood by" while "management gutted the retirement accounts." Mangement didn't "gut" our retirement accounts. I'll assume that you nothing about what happened with UA's pension plan anyway, but it was a combination of factors (internal and external to UA) that I believe caused our pensions to become underfunded and then seized by the PBGC.

I'm pretty sure that UA ALPA knew ultimately that the pensions would be seized at some point, but they just didn't know when. In actuality, UA ALPA, armed with this knowledge, didn't just "stand by" as you claim. Our hired financial advisor came up with a plan to have the company fund a 550M bond on behalf of the pilots which ultimately was distributed in a tax-advantaged manner. Further, our B+C fund contributions were increased to a total of 16% (pre tax) in order to help cover the loss.

So those are two examples that illustrate how UA ALPA didn't just "stand by" as you claim.

But wait! You have more!

...and for UAL to bash small non-union (undercutting) LCCs about retirement...after having dumped their entire pension plan onto the PBGC.

Again, UAL didn't dump their pension on the PBGC. It was seized by the PBGC.

Yes, I can bash Allegiant for not having retirement. Using your own logic, UA ALPA is horrible, right? They just "stood by" (your words) implying they did nothing, correct? So what does that say about your pilot group? Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union? Wow, if you think UA ALPA sucks, what do you think of the Allegiant, ahem, "informal union" mentioned by a previous poster?