Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[ualdriver]

And the previous posts about RJ's being the reason narrowbody rates are so low........nah, don't buy it, especially after what happened in the late 90's and early 00's with the LCC's massively invading legacy route structures during that time.

I think one could definitely argue that there are LESS mainline pilots today because many of those jobs have been outsourced to regional airlines, but I don't believe that narrowbody 737/A320/MD88 hourly rates with no pension and worse work rules is due to the RJ.

And I'm still waiting for someone to post Allegiant's "new" rates? Are these the rates on airlinepilotcentral.com with the $60/hr year 1 MD88 Captain rates or did they go up as implied by previous posters?

 

[Desert1]

Yes, I can bash Allegiant for not having retirement. Using your own logic, UA ALPA is horrible, right? They just "stood by" (your words) implying they did nothing, correct?

Ok...one more time....

Have any airlines, currently in existance, including yours, ever started out with a full blown, modern day legacy style retirement plan? Just curious.

Secondly, by the gist of your previous post, it appeard there was little ALPA could do to stop managemant from underfunding the pension plan. That being the case, (in addition to doing nothing about the massive erosion of income portential), what good is having to pay for a union? Not exactly blowin' my skirt up...

So what does that say about your pilot group? Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union? Wow, if you think UA ALPA sucks, what do you think of the Allegiant, ahem, "informal union" mentioned by a previous poster?

First of all, that free of charge 'informal union' blew by you while your union was being wined and dined and paying its staff exhorbitant sums to bend over to management's concessionary demands. Again it's painful so brace for it...Yes, we are now making more than UAL in many cases. Best part: you paid for that. I know it's gotta sting and my heart goes out to all the UAL folks that have to deal with it.

Secondly, the assumption you make here is that A) we don't have a retirement and B) we'll never have one. as usual, wrong...on both counts. Much like SWA, we have a 401k w/ a match. Not as good (yet), however, much like the 40% increase in compensation over a 3-4 year period, we are making progess on that too--stay tuned. Although you may scoff at 401k matching programs, I can assure you we have no desire to match any program that has UAL written on it. Too many retired UAL capts that had to sell everything after their pay 'adjustment'. Wake up and smell the coffee man, it's the new era, or haven't you heard. Previously unheard of practices of raiding pensions of United people have worked for (and counted on) for decades...slahed. No thanks. I wouldn't trust any agency, let alone an airline, to manage my retirement assets; UAL taught us all that lesson. We're aiming at SWA'a plan: just put MY money in MY untouchable, completely seperate retirement account. Ask any SWA driver if he'd like to trade pension plans...

Give it up UAL, you guys got shafted...and you paid for it. Good luck with reirement, I honestly feel for ya.

So...who's clueless?...

D1

 

[Desert1]

Yes, I can bash Allegiant for not having retirement. Using your own logic, UA ALPA is horrible, right? They just "stood by" (your words) implying they did nothing, correct?

Ok...one more time....

Have any airlines, currently in existance, including yours, ever started out with a full blown, modern day legacy style retirement plan? Just curious.

Secondly, by the gist of your previous post, it appeard there was little ALPA could do to stop managemant from underfunding the pension plan. That being the case, (in addition to doing nothing about the massive erosion of income portential), what good is having to pay for a union? Not exactly blowin' my skirt up...

So what does that say about your pilot group? Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union? Wow, if you think UA ALPA sucks, what do you think of the Allegiant, ahem, "informal union" mentioned by a previous poster?

First of all, that free of charge 'informal union' blew by you while Duane Worth(less) and his minions were being wined, dined and paid exhorbitant sums to bend over to concessionary demands.

Yes, I can bash Allegiant for not having retirement. Using your own logic, UA ALPA is horrible, right? They just "stood by" (your words) implying they did nothing, correct? So what does that say about your pilot group? Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union? Wow, if you think UA ALPA sucks, what do you think of the Allegiant, ahem, "informal union" mentioned by a previous poster?


Yes, I can bash Allegiant for not having retirement. Using your own logic, UA ALPA is horrible, right? They just "stood by" (your words) implying they did nothing, correct? So what does that say about your pilot group? Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union? Wow, if you think UA ALPA sucks, what do you think of the Allegiant, ahem, "informal union" mentioned by a previous poster?

Sure, bash away, but while you're at it, here's some food for thought...again it's painful so brace for it: we are now making more than UAL in many cases. Best part: you paid for that.

Secondly, the assumption you make here is that
A) we don't have a retirement and
B) we'll never have one.
as usual, wrong...on both counts. Much like SWA, we have a 401k w/ a match. Not as good (yet), however, much like the 40% increase in compensation over a 3-4 year period, we are making progess on that too--stay tuned. Although you may scoff at 401k matching programs, I can assure you we have no desire to match any program that resembles yours. Too many retired UAL capts that had to sell everything after their pay 'adjustment'. Wake up and smell the coffee man, it's the new era, and UAL was instrumental in that change. Previously unheard of practices of raiding pensions of United people have worked for (and counted on) for decades...slashed. No thanks. I wouldn't trust any agency, let alone an airline, to manage my retirement assets; UAL taught us all that lesson. We're aiming at SWA'a plan: just put MY money in MY untouchable, completely seperate retirement account. Ask any SWA driver if he'd like to trade pension plans...

Give it up UAL, you guys got shafted...and you paid for it. Good luck with retirement, I honestly feel for ya.

So...who's clueless?...

D1

 

[Desert1]

Quote: Here you guys are, flying multi-million dollar airplanes entrusted with the lives of 100+ people at a time, and you can't even match the retirement plan of a bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union?

What's wrong with this picture???!

Do you proof-read this stuff before you send it? Why in he11 would anyone want to mimick the practices of a "bankrupt airline like UA with a bad union"?????

It's just too easy...

D1

P.s., Duane said to say thanks for the lobster and Dom Perignon...

 

[ualdriver]

Have any airlines, currently in existance, including yours, ever started out with a full blown, modern day legacy style retirement plan? Just curious.

Don't know. How long has Allegiant been around for? Just a few months or several years? Did you guys blow the bank asking for the $80/yr MD88 Captains? But please, Desert, be careful asking for more. You don't want to damage that pilot-management "relationship."

Secondly, by the gist of your previous post, it appeard there was little ALPA could do to stop managemant from underfunding the pension plan. That being the case, (in addition to doing nothing about the massive erosion of income portential), what good is having to pay for a union? Not exactly blowin' my skirt up...

Gist wrong. And, in fact, I believe our pension was overfunded slightly just before 9/11, but I don't remember exactly.

But anway, your agrument is that ALPA should have been able to control market forces (i.e. the performance of investment vehicles within a defined benefit plan after a terriorist attack on the United States)? Are you arguing that ALPA should be able to overcome a defined benefit plan "perfect storm" with rapidly decliing interest rates (FED lowering rates to help provide economic stimulus) and a rapid decline in broad equity indexes in the early 00's due to the economic slowdown at the time? Therefore, because ALPA was unable (somehow?) to overcome that situation, that ALPA is bad and it's bad to pay for a Union? That's not your argument, seriously, is it? What, please, should ALPA (or any Union for that matter) should have done?


First of all, that free of charge 'informal union' blew by you while your union was being wined and dined and paying its staff exhorbitant sums to bend over to management's concessionary demands. Again it's painful so brace for it...Yes, we are now making more than UAL in many cases. Best part: you paid for that. I know it's gotta sting and my heart goes out to all the UAL folks that have to deal with it.

The first couple of sentences I assume are to fulfill the flightinfo.com Union member stereotype to make your argument sound cool to all the anti-ALPA guys?

So you guys have a better narrowbody total compensation package than UAL? Are you kidding me? Let me ask you this.......should UA ALPA go into negotiations next year and ask for the Allegiant contract for our narrowbody guys? Do you think that would be good for the industry or bad? I'm thinking.........bad.

And when are you going to post this new Allegiant contract? Or is the one on airlinepilotcentral the new one?


Secondly, the assumption you make here is that A) we don't have a retirement

Not true, just a sucky one. It's almost like having no retirement. How's that?

and B) we'll never have one.

You'll get one when your mangement team feels like giving you one. No sooner.

Much like SWA, we have a 401k w/ a match. Not as good (yet), however, much like the 40% increase in compensation over a 3-4 year period, we are making progess on that too--stay tuned.

Please. First of all, don't mutter "SWA" and anything about Allegiant's retirment in the same sentence. Second, your 80/hr. MD 88 Captains were making 40% less 3-4 years ago? No wonder you guys have a good relationship with your mangement. They must LOVE you guys! Desert, I can tell you're a team player. You guys definitely do not need to organize.


Although you may scoff at 401k matching programs, I can assure you we have no desire to match any program that has UAL written on it.

I don't scoff at 401K matching programs, just ones that only match 3% for a professional airline pilot flying a mainline narrowbody aircraft. And actually, you should have a desire to match our retirement plan as it would raise an Allegiant pilot's pre-tax income by approximately 21.3%, assuming his marginal tax bracket is around 25%.


Too many retired UAL capts that had to sell everything after their pay 'adjustment'. Wake up and smell the coffee man, it's the new era, or haven't you heard.

I know. It is a new era. I found out the hard way in the early 00's when "low cost airlines" undercut our hard fought gains. And I remember (naively) thinking that there's NO WAY narrowbody pilot pay could get any lower.........then I saw airlines like Allegiant, Skybus, Virgin. And here we go again!


Previously unheard of practices of raiding pensions of United people have worked for (and counted on) for decades...slahed. No thanks. I wouldn't trust any agency, let alone an airline, to manage my retirement assets; UAL taught us all that lesson. We're aiming at SWA'a plan: just put MY money in MY untouchable, completely seperate retirement account. Ask any SWA driver if he'd like to trade pension plans...

That's the only thing that you've written that I agree with.

Give it up UAL, you guys got shafted...and you paid for it. Good luck with reirement, I honestly feel for ya.

"Give it up" is for non-union guys who are pretty much powerless to change much, except what management feels like giving them. I haven't "given up" nor will I.

And why do you feel for me? You're making assumptions about me that you have no clue about, other than that I lost my defined benefit plan.

So...who's clueless?...

Still you. You have Captains flying narrowbody mainline aircraft for 80 bucks an hour with no retirement and you think that's a good deal. Your pilot group has a "feel good quasi-no-teeth-pretend union" on the property that continues to be massively underpaid and taken advantage of by your management team, even though the airline is profitable and could probaby afford to pay a more *ahem* competitive wage. And the fact is that the rest of the industry will probably (hopefully) make gains over the next round of contract negotiations and you will probably still have Captains flying MD88's for 80 bucks an hour. And the amazing thing is, you guys defend it! The Skybus guys defended it! The Virgin guys defend it. UFB.

Anyway Desert, I think you have the gist of my posts, I have the gist of yours. I'm done.

 

[Ameriagle]

UAL Driver,

You have given us all clear (as mud) examples of how the current generation of LCC's have impacted UALPA's ability to protect your wages. When are you going to give us a lesson on what role 09/11, oil prices, and poor business practices has had on United's ability to remain solvent and honor your ALPA agreement? But then they probably don't play much of a role, it's the LCC competition that continues to erode your market share....made possible by my $80.00/HR paycheck (which is wrong, but does add dramatic effect to your post!) Your dribble makes for a really nice history lesson, but at the end of the day thats all it is! I understand, you had a really good contract......a long long time ago.........and I was a pretty good football player in high school!

 

[Desert1]

I know. It is a new era. I found out the hard way in the early 00's when "low cost airlines" undercut our hard fought gains. And I remember (naively) thinking that there's NO WAY narrowbody pilot pay could get any lower.........then I saw airlines like Allegiant, Skybus, Virgin. And here we go again!

You keep asking what our published undercutting, non union hourly pay is. As you don't have access to our negotiated pay scale, I'll post it. As of 11/09 the 9-year captains negotiated pay will be $124/hr. Keep in mind that figure does not include 130% for all hours flown over 81 or profit-sharing (last year was $8 per hour flown). Doing the math, that exceeds the 10-year narrow body rate of $130 for UAL Capts (and NWA, and USair...). So who's undercutting who?

And by the way, the $80/hr you keep clinging to (sleep better?) will be $102 for 3rd year captains which by 2009 will be a realistic upgrade time. If you can show me a 2-3 year UAL captain, I'll be willing to further discuss this ridiculous argument.

And I'm sure you know, SWA didn't start out with the current 401k plan either...

D1

 

[NEDude]

And the previous posts about RJ's being the reason narrowbody rates are so low........nah, don't buy it, especially after what happened in the late 90's and early 00's with the LCC's massively invading legacy route structures during that time.

I think one could definitely argue that there are LESS mainline pilots today because many of those jobs have been outsourced to regional airlines, but I don't believe that narrowbody 737/A320/MD88 hourly rates with no pension and worse work rules is due to the RJ.

Of course there were no LCCs around in the 1980s or early 1990s that were flying against legacy carriers. People Express, New York Air, Midway, Morris Air and others didn't really exist at all. And todays larger LCCs, with the exception of Southwest, did not really gain large ground until after 2001. JetBlue didn't even start started ops until Feb 2000.

Tell me the biggest difference between the 1980s, 1990s and today. It is not low cost carriers, not smaller independent carriers, not de-regulation. The single biggest difference is regional airlines operating what was once mainline type equipment in large quantities. After 9/11 and all of the airlines were headed for bankruptcy, management was able to use the outsourcing of jobs to regionals as leverage in the bankruptcy courts to drive down wages.

And of ALPA had ever negotiated single rates and a national seniority list for all pilots, smaller LCCs would not have had the advantage of being able to hire a bunch of pilots at year one pay. ALPAs lack of solidarity and egos among legacy pilots groups trying to out do one another has been a major downfall of that "union". And now those egos are preventing them from recognizing those past mistakes. As the old saying goes - those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

 

[PCL_128]

You keep asking what our published undercutting, non union hourly pay is. As you don't have access to our negotiated pay scale, I'll post it. As of 11/09 the 9-year captains negotiated pay will be $124/hr.

Well, ain't that just wonderful. Thanks for undercutting our $137/hr rate, which is from a contract that's already been amendable for 3 years and was signed in 2001. While we try to negotiate something better, you brag about a rate that is already $13/hr less than ours. Thanks.

 

[chperplt]

Well, ain't that just wonderful. Thanks for undercutting our $137/hr rate, which is from a contract that's already been amendable for 3 years and was signed in 2001. While we try to negotiate something better, you brag about a rate that is already $13/hr less than ours. Thanks.

....and how are those contract negotiations going there for ya at the tranny?

Go somewhere else and continue your ALPA sermons dude.

 

[PCL_128]

....and how are those contract negotiations going there for ya at the tranny?

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.

Go somewhere else and continue your ALPA sermons dude.

What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!

 

[spinproof]

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.




What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!

Well ALPO butt boy the same can be said for you!! Big talk from a right seat dinosaur driver!

 

[Ameriagle]

"They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar."

Dude, maybe you should take responsibility for your own negotiations, and stop making excuses! Your lack of progress is nobody's fault but your own.

 

[Ameriagle]

"What does ALPA have to do with this? AAI is represented by the NPA, and you are represented by.....nobody!"

Is this supposed to be a slight? This entire thread has been perpetuated by union pilots arguing about why there union is no longer effective! Sign me up!

 

[sioux1]

I work here and I do like it. It is probably the easiest job I've ever had. That being said this whole thread is just silly. We should not be comparing ourselves to UAL in any way. UALdriver does make some good points with total compensation. I did a calculation with retirement ours vs UAL. Here is what I came up with.

I used 2 pilots starting today at both carriers. For the AAY pilot, I upgraded him at 2 years. For the UAL pilot I upgraded him only at year ten, and kept him on the 737 the whole time. I also used a 70 hour guarantee for AAY and a 65 hour guarantee for UAL.
After 10 years, here is what their retirement looks like assuming no appreciation.

UAL - $97,590 AAY - $23,282

Note - The AAY pilot would have to contribute $46,564 of his own money to achieve that amount vs. the UAL pilot's contribution of 0.

I used current pay rates only. So if you add in our future raises (don't know UAL's) maybe you can add 5g's at most to our 401k. Still nowhere near equal. They also double our per diem rates. We also brag about being home every night and accept lower pay in light of that. While that is nice, in the long run it costs the company less to bring us home every night, so we should be making more from it not less. Also whoever included our profit sharing at $8 an hour is giving disinformation. While that was the case last year, that was anomoly. We will be lucky to see $2 an hour going forward if any at all.

I don't think we should be bragging about our rates at all. It is true that we seem to be working on them and that is what we should continue to focus our efforts on, not bragging on this board. This is after UAL took almost 50% pay cuts 5 years ago.

As far as a union here, I think that may eventually come, but we need much more participation for that to happen. Our current participation is about 10 guys that are burned out and with good reason. I think the negotiating power of a union would certainly help around here. At least then you have some teeth when you negotiate. But then again we need much more participation for that to work. I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that. Too many internal problems.

We have a good thing going at Allegiant. I really enjoy this place. But we should focus our efforts internally to help organize this place better and not argue with pilots at other carriers. We should be using thier knowledge and experience (both mistakes and successes) to further our own compensation and thus every other pilot groups compensation. We are all tied together in this.

 

[Mr Wu]

Well, ain't that just wonderful. Thanks for undercutting our $137/hr rate, which is from a contract that's already been amendable for 3 years and was signed in 2001. While we try to negotiate something better, you brag about a rate that is already $13/hr less than ours. Thanks.

You keep bitching about our MD80 rate but you don't say a word about how your own 737 rates stand up against other 737 operators. About $25/hr less I believe. Watch out for those glass walls...

 

[Mr Wu]

They'd be much better if other pilot groups weren't stabbing us in the back while we try to raise the bar.

Seriously duuuuuude, you came from Pinnacle and Gulf$tream. Give it a rest with the backstabbing.

 

[PCL_128]

I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that.

I think you would be wrong. UALdriver is smart enough to realize that ALPA isn't perfect, but it's the best thing that air line pilots have for improving our profession.

 

[PCL_128]

You keep bitching about our MD80 rate but you don't say a word about how your own 737 rates stand up against other 737 operators. About $25/hr less I believe. Watch out for those glass walls...

Top Captain rates for 737-700 Captains, highest to lowest:

SWA - $198
ALA - $154
DAL - $154
CAL - $147
AWA - $142
UAL - $133
AAA - $125

Avg - $150/hr
AAI - $153/hr

Looks like we come in above average, even with a 7-year old contract that has been amendable for over three years. Now, I'm not defending our pay rates, as I still think they suck compared to what they should be, but you are completely wrong about our rates being substandard. We have 737 Captains making more than widebody Captains at some of the legacies.

 

[Desert1]

I work here and I do like it. It is probably the easiest job I've ever had. That being said this whole thread is just silly. We should not be comparing ourselves to UAL in any way. UALdriver does make some good points with total compensation. I did a calculation with retirement ours vs UAL. Here is what I came up with.

I used 2 pilots starting today at both carriers. For the AAY pilot, I upgraded him at 2 years. For the UAL pilot I upgraded him only at year ten, and kept him on the 737 the whole time. I also used a 70 hour guarantee for AAY and a 65 hour guarantee for UAL.
After 10 years, here is what their retirement looks like assuming no appreciation.

UAL - $97,590 AAY - $23,282

Note - The AAY pilot would have to contribute $46,564 of his own money to achieve that amount vs. the UAL pilot's contribution of 0.

I used current pay rates only. So if you add in our future raises (don't know UAL's) maybe you can add 5g's at most to our 401k. Still nowhere near equal. They also double our per diem rates. We also brag about being home every night and accept lower pay in light of that. While that is nice, in the long run it costs the company less to bring us home every night, so we should be making more from it not less. Also whoever included our profit sharing at $8 an hour is giving disinformation. While that was the case last year, that was anomoly. We will be lucky to see $2 an hour going forward if any at all.

I don't think we should be bragging about our rates at all. It is true that we seem to be working on them and that is what we should continue to focus our efforts on, not bragging on this board. This is after UAL took almost 50% pay cuts 5 years ago.

As far as a union here, I think that may eventually come, but we need much more participation for that to happen. Our current participation is about 10 guys that are burned out and with good reason. I think the negotiating power of a union would certainly help around here. At least then you have some teeth when you negotiate. But then again we need much more participation for that to work. I know it should not be ALPA. That union is broken, I think UALdriver would also admit to that. Too many internal problems.

We have a good thing going at Allegiant. I really enjoy this place. But we should focus our efforts internally to help organize this place better and not argue with pilots at other carriers. We should be using thier knowledge and experience (both mistakes and successes) to further our own compensation and thus every other pilot groups compensation. We are all tied together in this.

Sioux, good post and you make some valid points. You'll forgive me however if I take issue with your repeated use of the term 'bragging' when referring to the AAY posts. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting your thread, but you appear to be chastising the AAY guys that are merely defending our company (and yours?) against false and inaccurate accusations.

Not sure how much you've read, but you may want to take another look at the thread from the beginning. I say this because you appear to believe the AAY pilots started this confrontation. Not true: We're not bragging about our rates, we're setting the record straight. Look through the posts, you'll notice a series of accusations and unprovoked attacks levied against AAY (non-union, undercutters, etc). One went so far as to use his jump seat as a threat against non-union carriers (Quote: you'd better move to LAS because more and more Union pilots are refusing to give jumpseat rides to people who are stabbing us in the back.).

You're right, we do have it good here at AAY. But that didn't come without a lot of effort and sacrifice from our pilot group. A lot of guys that came before you have put forth a great deal of effort to gain the new rates that you now enjoy. We HAVE been "using our knowledge and experience to further our own compensation", it's been going on for 3 years and we have made remarkable improvements. As a pilot group, we are proud of our accomplishments and some on this board feel we should set the record straight. Again, not bragging.

Too many have worked too hard to take this garbage lying down. As you'll see in my post count, I seldom post on this board, but sometimes you have to take a stand.

As I'd mentioned in the previous post, my heart goes out to the good folks at UAL, they've lost a lot and deserve much better. But I disagree with the accusation that we are the culprits and are responsible for their loss. As you've seen on this thread, that line of reasoning can become a very slippery slope...

D1