Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[Daytonaflyer]

Southwest didn't become industry leading until they dragged everyone else down. 10 years ago A320 and B737 pilots were making 200+ an hour at legacy airlines. What is that adjusted for inflation?

I don't think that's true. In 1998, United Airlines was paying it's most senior widebody pilots $192/hr, then Delta came along with a new contract and raised the bar by paying $196/hr to it's most senior widebody pilots. That is the highest the pay ever went and the B737 pilot pay was quite a bit lower.

Second, contrary to popular belief on these boards, Southwest didn't bring the industry pay down. Legacy airline pay continued to rise until 9/11. The only other times when legacy pay trended downward was during times of bankruptcy.

 

[Desert1]

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

This is comical. Not to engage in the traditional childish pissing contest on "who has the better airline" ( I really wish UAL the best), but again, Allegiant's negotiated (future) payrates are comparable and, in many cases, even exceed those at United. These are facts. If you think about it, these facts serve to contradict the basic premise of your argument: that Allegiant is bringing down UAL rates. Quite the contrary: A non-union, new LCC has succesfully (and very quickly) surpassed the payscales of the mighty UAL. If UALPA has a hair in there "collective bargaining" a$$, it should be easy to use higher paying LCCs like Allegiant as a comparison to negotiate a higher UAL payscale. This would be amusing if it weren't so tragic.

As for others, I certainly hope you are not insinuating that it was the smaller LCCs that have brought down the pay rates of the Legacy/Majors. LCCs have been around since the dawn of the jet era and have had nothing to do with the demise of your earning power. You may want to do a little research into what airline management has been able to wrangle away from ALPA unions over the last couple of decades. This was due to a large variety of factors involving, among other things, over-capacity, 9/11, the economy, globalization, fuel, labor costs, maintaining aging fleets, consumer demand/expectations, etc.

For their part, through greed, ALPA pilots have been, to an extent, the authors of their own demise. They've allowed management to divide and conquer by pitting groups against each other (senior vs. junior) and give away scope (RJs). As bad as airline managers are known to be, they've outsmarted pilots every step of the way. If the level of ignorance and maturity displayed on this site is any indication, this shouldn't come as a surprise...

Admittedly a simplistic history, but I actually have a life and you could write a book on this stuff.

In any event, good luck in your career at UAL--seriously. I would like nothing more than to see every pilot's pay return to the previous levels. In the meantime, enough with the blaming, gloating, slamfest that takes place on this site. We're all in this together and as things are going, any one of us could be applying at any one of the surviving carriers.

It's about facts and information to get through what will be a very tough career for ALL of us. It's a shame this potentially valuable medium has become the 'us-vs-them' circus of childish trash-talking.

Peace.

D1

 

[ualdriver]

I love it!!

To the last several posters: I love the way you Allegiant, ex-Skybus, and Virgin pilots defend your payrates. Talk about comical.

Of course Southwest, JetBlue, Airtan, Frontier, Western Pacific, Vanguard, etc., etc., had nothing to do with dragging down legacy payrates!! It was all the reasons you all mentioned EXCEPT low cost carrier pilots flying narrow gauge aircraft for less than 1/2 the going rate with no retirment and no work rules. Labor rates, especially before the latest run-up in fuel prices, were an airline's largest controllable costs by FAR. But of course, labor costs play such a small, small roll in an airline's cost structure it just doesn't matter!! I would be surprised if any ONE of you have actually ever read an airline's annual report or waded through a 10Q or visited DOT websites learning about things about an airline's costs, but you all know that 90/hr narrowbody pilots have NO EFFECT and HAD NO EFFECT on legacy pilot pay rates. Yup, got it.

Yup, also got it that if your airline has a quick upgrade, it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour to fly a multi-million dollar aircraft with 100+ people in the back. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour as long as you're home every night. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour if you pay your F/O's a higher rate that a UA pilots' F/O rate. Got it.

I also understand that if you have a wonderful relationship with management it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour. Got it.

I also understand that if your airline is "just starting out" it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour in order to subdize your airline's bottom line until it can steal a little legacy market share- or at least enough to get your non-union airline on its feet. Got it.

I've learned alot from the pilots at such airlines at Allegiant, Skybus, and Virgin. As I read these arguments/rationalizations, I'm wondering if UA ALPA should take a different tact with our negotiations in the up and coming months. I think we should argue to eliminate our retirement, lower our wages to the lowest of the ultra-low cost carriers, and get rid of our work rules. The following beneficial things will happen:

1) UAL will be able to undercut the pilots at other carriers who are actually trying to raise the pay, retirement, and QOL of union pilots.

2) UAL will then be able to grow at the expense of our compeitors, greatly reducing upgrade time.

3) UAL pilots, by agreeing to such low wages, will be ENTHUSIASTICALLY embraced by our management as "team players" and the pilot-management relationship will go from sour to FANTASTIC SUPER AWESOME.

4) UAL will be able to order lots of new airplanes, which will reduce our upgrade time even further!

But of course, the party will only last for a while as we put out of business our competitors or force them to compete by lowering their wages as well. Oh wait, I forgot. Pilot wages have/had nothing to do with the downward spiral we've seen in the past. Nevermind.

I'm drafting a resolution for our next Union meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

ualdriver

 

[Daytonaflyer]

ualdriver,
Not that it matters, but we already have captain pay rates equal to yours; they go into effect this year.
Have you seen the new rates? They're a little higher than NWA, and US Air's and about equal to UAL's. We we have work rules too.
Most importantly, our group is happy. I was talking a captain last week who is furloughed by AA and he's praying that Allegiant continues to do well so he can defer his recall because doesn't want to go back to AA. That's gotta tell you something.
I'm not complaining either, I only worked 4 days last month. In fact I've only worked about 20 days in the last three months. I have so much free time on my hands I'm gonna have to take up a hobby. My only dilemna is: should I buy another motorcycle or a jet ski?

Now UAL is one of the lower paying airlines; Southwest, Airtran, and JetBlue all pay better and they still out perform UAL financially. How do you explain that?

 

[chperplt]

Don't waste your time fellas.... He needs to be able to justify to himself why some of us are making more money than he is.

Sure... he may have much better retirement, but it won't do him much good when they file for BK again.

As for work rules... UAL has such great work rules, how much pay did your 777 guys lose when they were stuck overseas when the planes were grounded? Even AAY pays for cancellations.

 

[ualdriver]

Don't waste your time fellas.... He needs to be able to justify to himself why some of us are making more money than he is.

Sure... he may have much better retirement, but it won't do him much good when they file for BK again.

As for work rules... UAL has such great work rules, how much pay did your 777 guys lose when they were stuck overseas when the planes were grounded? Even AAY pays for cancellations.

Ah, we're filing for bankruptcy again? Really? Did you read that on flightinfo.com? It must be true! Could you please refer to our latest financial filings here and using the numbers found on this release explain to me how and when we'll be filing for bankruptcy. I'll anxiously await your analysis. I already gave mine on another thread. Feel free to refer to that one, too.

We have cancellation pay.

Fantastic, you guys finally are paying narrowbody pay rates worth something I guess- haven't seen them. But what about Virgin? What about the next Skybus? Is it OK if those airlines start growing and undeructting you now?

 

[HDA]

To the last several posters: I love the way you Allegiant, ex-Skybus, and Virgin pilots defend your payrates. Talk about comical.

Of course Southwest, JetBlue, Airtan, Frontier, Western Pacific, Vanguard, etc., etc., had nothing to do with dragging down legacy payrates!! It was all the reasons you all mentioned EXCEPT low cost carrier pilots flying narrow gauge aircraft for less than 1/2 the going rate with no retirment and no work rules. Labor rates, especially before the latest run-up in fuel prices, were an airline's largest controllable costs by FAR. But of course, labor costs play such a small, small roll in an airline's cost structure it just doesn't matter!! I would be surprised if any ONE of you have actually ever read an airline's annual report or waded through a 10Q or visited DOT websites learning about things about an airline's costs, but you all know that 90/hr narrowbody pilots have NO EFFECT and HAD NO EFFECT on legacy pilot pay rates. Yup, got it.

Yup, also got it that if your airline has a quick upgrade, it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour to fly a multi-million dollar aircraft with 100+ people in the back. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour as long as you're home every night. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour if you pay your F/O's a higher rate that a UA pilots' F/O rate. Got it.

I also understand that if you have a wonderful relationship with management it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour. Got it.

I also understand that if your airline is "just starting out" it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour in order to subdize your airline's bottom line until it can steal a little legacy market share- or at least enough to get your non-union airline on its feet. Got it.

I've learned alot from the pilots at such airlines at Allegiant, Skybus, and Virgin. As I read these arguments/rationalizations, I'm wondering if UA ALPA should take a different tact with our negotiations in the up and coming months. I think we should argue to eliminate our retirement, lower our wages to the lowest of the ultra-low cost carriers, and get rid of our work rules. The following beneficial things will happen:

1) UAL will be able to undercut the pilots at other carriers who are actually trying to raise the pay, retirement, and QOL of union pilots.

2) UAL will then be able to grow at the expense of our compeitors, greatly reducing upgrade time.

3) UAL pilots, by agreeing to such low wages, will be ENTHUSIASTICALLY embraced by our management as "team players" and the pilot-management relationship will go from sour to FANTASTIC SUPER AWESOME.

4) UAL will be able to order lots of new airplanes, which will reduce our upgrade time even further!

But of course, the party will only last for a while as we put out of business our competitors or force them to compete by lowering their wages as well. Oh wait, I forgot. Pilot wages have/had nothing to do with the downward spiral we've seen in the past. Nevermind.

I'm drafting a resolution for our next Union meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

ualdriver

Wow...I bet you are a hoot to spend time in the air with!

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,
Not that it matters, but we already have captain pay rates equal to yours; they go into effect this year.
Have you seen the new rates? They're a little higher than NWA, and US Air's and about equal to UAL's. We we have work rules too.
Most importantly, our group is happy. I was talking a captain last week who is furloughed by AA and he's praying that Allegiant continues to do well so he can defer his recall because doesn't want to go back to AA. That's gotta tell you something.
I'm not complaining either, I only worked 4 days last month. In fact I've only worked about 20 days in the last three months. I have so much free time on my hands I'm gonna have to take up a hobby. My only dilemna is: should I buy another motorcycle or a jet ski?

Now UAL is one of the lower paying airlines; Southwest, Airtran, and JetBlue all pay better and they still out perform UAL financially. How do you explain that?

Of course they're happy. They came to Allegiant with low expectations for pay, work rules, and retirement and all of their expectations were met. Now you guys get thrown a bone and you're really happy. Good for you guys if you actually got your rates up. I haven't seen them. If the rest of us somehow get our rates up again after this next round of negotiations, I hope you get yours up to that level the next day.

And you're missing my point concerning your last paragraph. I don't care if an airline does better than mine financially because they offer a better product, because they're safer, because they have better management, etc., etc. If I was concerned about stuff like that, I would go get a government job.

What I do CARE ABOUT is when a non-union, pilot labor cutting airline comes on the scene and uses DISCOUT AIRLINE PILOT LABOR to start undercutting me. That's what I don't like. And I don't like it even more when said pilots come on forums such as these and tell me things like, "pilot pay has nothing to do with an airline's success," or "we're all just so happy here so it's OK that they pay me 1/2 the going rate," or "we're upgrading so fast so it's OK that I get no retirment, crappy pay, no work rules," etc. That's what's really annoying.

So if you want to go work for some non-union, undercutting, discount airline pilot labor airline- fine, it's a free country. But if you're going to do so and then come on a forum such as this and try to tell us all that it's "OK" to do so because of the above reasons, I get to throw down the B.S. flag.

 

[labbats]

Just so I have it straight....

UAL FO pay is lower than Allegiant's.

UAL's minimum guarantee is 10 hours lower than Allegiant's.

Allegiant has a 2 year upgrade. UAL is in the double digits.

Allegiant's pilots will be getting a raise that will put them on par with UAL and the other major airlines.

Where exactly are they pulling down the bar from?

The whole point of Allegiant is to fly routes that don't compete with anyone else. If you think UAL is getting undercut flying from Fargo to Vegas, then so be it.

 

[ualdriver]

Just so I have it straight....

UAL FO pay is lower than Allegiant's.

UAL's minimum guarantee is 10 hours lower than Allegiant's.

Allegiant has a 2 year upgrade. UAL is in the double digits.

Allegiant's pilots will be getting a raise that will put them on par with UAL and the other major airlines.

Where exactly are they pulling down the bar from?

The whole point of Allegiant is to fly routes that don't compete with anyone else. If you think UAL is getting undercut flying from Fargo to Vegas, then so be it.

Let me get this straight......

If a non-union, undercutting airline has F/O rates higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour? How did Skybus rates sit with you? OK because they paid their first year F/O's better money than UA?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has a guarantee higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour and no retirement?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has 2 year upgrades, it's OK to pay Captains of multi-million dollar aircraft with 150 peple in the back 90 bucks an hour?

So am I getting that straight? Were you OK with Skybus rates? Fair wages you think? How about Virgin? Those pay rates sit well with you? How about the initial Allegiant rates? OK with you? Are those three examples the direction you would like to take airline pilot pay, work rules, and retirement? Do you suggest that my airline abandon its current contract and ask for Skybus rates at the next negotiations? Virgin rates?

Let me know because apparently as long as 1st year F/O rates are OK, there's a quick upgrade, and one's guarantee is higher, it's OK to pay MD88 Captains, or Airbus Captains 90 bucks an hour (or less!)