Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[ualdriver]

Don't waste your time fellas.... He needs to be able to justify to himself why some of us are making more money than he is.

Sure... he may have much better retirement, but it won't do him much good when they file for BK again.

As for work rules... UAL has such great work rules, how much pay did your 777 guys lose when they were stuck overseas when the planes were grounded? Even AAY pays for cancellations.

Ah, we're filing for bankruptcy again? Really? Did you read that on flightinfo.com? It must be true! Could you please refer to our latest financial filings here and using the numbers found on this release explain to me how and when we'll be filing for bankruptcy. I'll anxiously await your analysis. I already gave mine on another thread. Feel free to refer to that one, too.

We have cancellation pay.

Fantastic, you guys finally are paying narrowbody pay rates worth something I guess- haven't seen them. But what about Virgin? What about the next Skybus? Is it OK if those airlines start growing and undeructting you now?

 

[HDA]

To the last several posters: I love the way you Allegiant, ex-Skybus, and Virgin pilots defend your payrates. Talk about comical.

Of course Southwest, JetBlue, Airtan, Frontier, Western Pacific, Vanguard, etc., etc., had nothing to do with dragging down legacy payrates!! It was all the reasons you all mentioned EXCEPT low cost carrier pilots flying narrow gauge aircraft for less than 1/2 the going rate with no retirment and no work rules. Labor rates, especially before the latest run-up in fuel prices, were an airline's largest controllable costs by FAR. But of course, labor costs play such a small, small roll in an airline's cost structure it just doesn't matter!! I would be surprised if any ONE of you have actually ever read an airline's annual report or waded through a 10Q or visited DOT websites learning about things about an airline's costs, but you all know that 90/hr narrowbody pilots have NO EFFECT and HAD NO EFFECT on legacy pilot pay rates. Yup, got it.

Yup, also got it that if your airline has a quick upgrade, it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour to fly a multi-million dollar aircraft with 100+ people in the back. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour as long as you're home every night. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour if you pay your F/O's a higher rate that a UA pilots' F/O rate. Got it.

I also understand that if you have a wonderful relationship with management it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour. Got it.

I also understand that if your airline is "just starting out" it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour in order to subdize your airline's bottom line until it can steal a little legacy market share- or at least enough to get your non-union airline on its feet. Got it.

I've learned alot from the pilots at such airlines at Allegiant, Skybus, and Virgin. As I read these arguments/rationalizations, I'm wondering if UA ALPA should take a different tact with our negotiations in the up and coming months. I think we should argue to eliminate our retirement, lower our wages to the lowest of the ultra-low cost carriers, and get rid of our work rules. The following beneficial things will happen:

1) UAL will be able to undercut the pilots at other carriers who are actually trying to raise the pay, retirement, and QOL of union pilots.

2) UAL will then be able to grow at the expense of our compeitors, greatly reducing upgrade time.

3) UAL pilots, by agreeing to such low wages, will be ENTHUSIASTICALLY embraced by our management as "team players" and the pilot-management relationship will go from sour to FANTASTIC SUPER AWESOME.

4) UAL will be able to order lots of new airplanes, which will reduce our upgrade time even further!

But of course, the party will only last for a while as we put out of business our competitors or force them to compete by lowering their wages as well. Oh wait, I forgot. Pilot wages have/had nothing to do with the downward spiral we've seen in the past. Nevermind.

I'm drafting a resolution for our next Union meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

ualdriver

Wow...I bet you are a hoot to spend time in the air with!

 

[ualdriver]

ualdriver,
Not that it matters, but we already have captain pay rates equal to yours; they go into effect this year.
Have you seen the new rates? They're a little higher than NWA, and US Air's and about equal to UAL's. We we have work rules too.
Most importantly, our group is happy. I was talking a captain last week who is furloughed by AA and he's praying that Allegiant continues to do well so he can defer his recall because doesn't want to go back to AA. That's gotta tell you something.
I'm not complaining either, I only worked 4 days last month. In fact I've only worked about 20 days in the last three months. I have so much free time on my hands I'm gonna have to take up a hobby. My only dilemna is: should I buy another motorcycle or a jet ski?

Now UAL is one of the lower paying airlines; Southwest, Airtran, and JetBlue all pay better and they still out perform UAL financially. How do you explain that?

Of course they're happy. They came to Allegiant with low expectations for pay, work rules, and retirement and all of their expectations were met. Now you guys get thrown a bone and you're really happy. Good for you guys if you actually got your rates up. I haven't seen them. If the rest of us somehow get our rates up again after this next round of negotiations, I hope you get yours up to that level the next day.

And you're missing my point concerning your last paragraph. I don't care if an airline does better than mine financially because they offer a better product, because they're safer, because they have better management, etc., etc. If I was concerned about stuff like that, I would go get a government job.

What I do CARE ABOUT is when a non-union, pilot labor cutting airline comes on the scene and uses DISCOUT AIRLINE PILOT LABOR to start undercutting me. That's what I don't like. And I don't like it even more when said pilots come on forums such as these and tell me things like, "pilot pay has nothing to do with an airline's success," or "we're all just so happy here so it's OK that they pay me 1/2 the going rate," or "we're upgrading so fast so it's OK that I get no retirment, crappy pay, no work rules," etc. That's what's really annoying.

So if you want to go work for some non-union, undercutting, discount airline pilot labor airline- fine, it's a free country. But if you're going to do so and then come on a forum such as this and try to tell us all that it's "OK" to do so because of the above reasons, I get to throw down the B.S. flag.

 

[labbats]

Just so I have it straight....

UAL FO pay is lower than Allegiant's.

UAL's minimum guarantee is 10 hours lower than Allegiant's.

Allegiant has a 2 year upgrade. UAL is in the double digits.

Allegiant's pilots will be getting a raise that will put them on par with UAL and the other major airlines.

Where exactly are they pulling down the bar from?

The whole point of Allegiant is to fly routes that don't compete with anyone else. If you think UAL is getting undercut flying from Fargo to Vegas, then so be it.

 

[ualdriver]

Just so I have it straight....

UAL FO pay is lower than Allegiant's.

UAL's minimum guarantee is 10 hours lower than Allegiant's.

Allegiant has a 2 year upgrade. UAL is in the double digits.

Allegiant's pilots will be getting a raise that will put them on par with UAL and the other major airlines.

Where exactly are they pulling down the bar from?

The whole point of Allegiant is to fly routes that don't compete with anyone else. If you think UAL is getting undercut flying from Fargo to Vegas, then so be it.

Let me get this straight......

If a non-union, undercutting airline has F/O rates higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour? How did Skybus rates sit with you? OK because they paid their first year F/O's better money than UA?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has a guarantee higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour and no retirement?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has 2 year upgrades, it's OK to pay Captains of multi-million dollar aircraft with 150 peple in the back 90 bucks an hour?

So am I getting that straight? Were you OK with Skybus rates? Fair wages you think? How about Virgin? Those pay rates sit well with you? How about the initial Allegiant rates? OK with you? Are those three examples the direction you would like to take airline pilot pay, work rules, and retirement? Do you suggest that my airline abandon its current contract and ask for Skybus rates at the next negotiations? Virgin rates?

Let me know because apparently as long as 1st year F/O rates are OK, there's a quick upgrade, and one's guarantee is higher, it's OK to pay MD88 Captains, or Airbus Captains 90 bucks an hour (or less!)

 

[labbats]

Apparently you missed about 3 different posts (including the one you just quoted) stating that captain pay will be raised to UAL levels.

Anyway, good luck with everything. I'm done arguing with a broken record and an inability to read.

 

[Ameriagle]

UAL Driver,

Thanks, I understand know! I accept full responsibility for any and all concessions United pilots have accepted post 09/11! I'll step up because I'm sure none of the SWA pilots will! When United started taking concessions AAY was nothing more than a bankrupt airline with a couple of DC-9's and a plan! The reality is our compensation package has alot to do with what YOU are making to fly like equipment, not the other way around! Management, saavy as they are, use your rates to leverage us too, just like at Delta and American! You mock in your post, but all I see is justification for why you where willing to accept a concessionary contract. Seems alot like the pot calling the kettle black! Again, that is my fault......as a voting member of UALPA right?

As I have said before, I think most folks at AAY agree our compensation package is a work in progress, but your characterization is off base! We have made significant gains in recent years, as much as any carrier, and its not because we are sitting around willing to accept whatever management throws our way as you would seem to imply! Good luck, fly safe!

Sorry Chpr...had to respond!

 

[Reelbigfish]

Let me get this straight......

If a non-union, undercutting airline has F/O rates higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour? How did Skybus rates sit with you? OK because they paid their first year F/O's better money than UA?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has a guarantee higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour and no retirement?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has 2 year upgrades, it's OK to pay Captains of multi-million dollar aircraft with 150 peple in the back 90 bucks an hour?

So am I getting that straight? Were you OK with Skybus rates? Fair wages you think? How about Virgin? Those pay rates sit well with you? How about the initial Allegiant rates? OK with you? Are those three examples the direction you would like to take airline pilot pay, work rules, and retirement? Do you suggest that my airline abandon its current contract and ask for Skybus rates at the next negotiations? Virgin rates?

Let me know because apparently as long as 1st year F/O rates are OK, there's a quick upgrade, and one's guarantee is higher, it's OK to pay MD88 Captains, or Airbus Captains 90 bucks an hour (or less!)

Since you think the problem with the industry is all the NON-UNION airlines, then I guess you are ok with all the fine UNION airlines like Go-Jet. The union did nothing but pave the way for Go-jet to undercut other pilots. Of course being union means that you are raising the bar...only the non-union scum like Allegiant are lowering the bar.

 

[Ameriagle]

"Fantastic, you guys finally are paying narrowbody pay rates worth something I guess- haven't seen them. But what about Virgin? What about the next Skybus? Is it OK if those airlines start growing and undeructting you now?"

Alot of mud throwing for someone that does not even know what our payrates are? It would be a narrowbody rate because.....it is a narrowbody aircraft! As for Virgin, I have a choice and I probably won't be applying......as for Skybus, you did hear they are no longer flying airplanes!

 

[ualdriver]

Thanks, I understand know! I accept full responsibility for any and all concessions United pilots have accepted post 09/11! I'll step up because I'm sure none of the SWA pilots will!

How soon we forget that SWA pilot were undercutting DAL, UAL, AMR, etc. just a few years ago.


When United started taking concessions AAY was nothing more than a bankrupt airline with a couple of DC-9's and a plan! The reality is our compensation package has alot to do with what YOU are making to fly like equipment, not the other way around!

You're right, they do have to do with what I am making. You're lucky we have a Union on the property that actually stood up to what our management REALLY wanted for our pay rates and work rules. If we hadn't, you'd still be making 80 bucks an hour as a MD88 Captain. Certainly you're not arguing that if all the legacies had dropped down to Allegiant/Skybus/Virgin pay rates that Allegiant would have been able to negotiate the higher pay rates coming into effect soon, are you? The ONLY way you guys will get your rates higher in the future is if Union airlines raise them above current levels.


Management, saavy as they are, use your rates to leverage us too, just like at Delta and American! You mock in your post, but all I see is justification for why you where willing to accept a concessionary contract. Seems alot like the pot calling the kettle black! Again, that is my fault......as a voting member of UALPA right?

If you work for an airline that is using discount airline pilot labor to undercut the rest of the industry and use that as a competitive advantage, you are a part of the problem.


As I have said before, I think most folks at AAY agree our compensation package is a work in progress, but your characterization is off base! We have made significant gains in recent years, as much as any carrier, and its not because we are sitting around willing to accept whatever management throws our way as you would seem to imply!

So you don't accept whatever management throws your way? Your pilot group took a stand? OK, is it unreasonable to ask your management for some sort of retirement? Was it unreasonable to ask your management team YEARS AGO for just an "industry average" MD88 rate instead of 90 bucks an hour? You weren't just sitting around and accepting "whatever management threw your way" when 80 something an hour for a MD88 Captain was thrown your way?

 

[Desert1]

Let me get this straight......

If a non-union, undercutting airline has F/O rates higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour? How did Skybus rates sit with you? OK because they paid their first year F/O's better money than UA?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has a guarantee higher than mine, it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour and no retirement?

If a non-union, undercutting airline has 2 year upgrades, it's OK to pay Captains of multi-million dollar aircraft with 150 peple in the back 90 bucks an hour?

So am I getting that straight? Were you OK with Skybus rates? Fair wages you think? How about Virgin? Those pay rates sit well with you? How about the initial Allegiant rates? OK with you? Are those three examples the direction you would like to take airline pilot pay, work rules, and retirement? Do you suggest that my airline abandon its current contract and ask for Skybus rates at the next negotiations? Virgin rates?

Let me know because apparently as long as 1st year F/O rates are OK, there's a quick upgrade, and one's guarantee is higher, it's OK to pay MD88 Captains, or Airbus Captains 90 bucks an hour (or less!)

We get it too, UAL...you're so busy screaming that you're not listening. Take a break man...go get some air. And please--quit repeating "non-union, undercutting airline". We get it: you feel we are bringing you guys down. You are going to stand on that box and scream it for weeks no matter what data is presented to you. Whatever you do, don't let the facts cloud your argument.

Last time: a non-union, non-undercutting (upper-cutting?) airline has outperformed your beloved union monolithic dinosaur. We didn't negotiate away your wages and benefits--you did, and you're still pay dues for that...

While you were busy drinking the management coolaid and bending over to their demands, our pilots were meeting with management to improve our wages and work rules. In fact, a couple of the traditional posters on this site served with distinction on the negotiating team. In a span of 3 years they managed to pass up the great UAL. Now you're lower than us. Doesn't that make you the under-cutter?

Keep screaming your case UAL...disregard the facts if they're too painful...blame everyone else for your plight. Whatever it takes to sleep better.

Seriously, take a breather and try to enjoy your life.

D1

 

[ualdriver]

We get it too, UAL...you're so busy screaming that you're not listening. Take a break man...go get some air. And please--quit repeating "non-union, undercutting airline". We get it: you feel we are bringing you guys down. You are going to stand on that box and scream it for weeks no matter what data is presented to you. Whatever you do, don't let the facts cloud your argument.

OK, so you weren't a non-union, undercutting airline over the past several years? Am I getting that right? I'm listening?

Last time: a non-union, non-undercutting (upper-cutting?) airline has outperformed your beloved union monolithic dinosaur. We didn't negotiate away your wages and benefits--you did, and you're still pay dues for that...

Using that logic, I guess we should agree to really low wages. Then brag when we get those really low wages up to something resembling industry standard as if that's some sort of huge accomplishment! Here's an idea. Get your pilots organized and you won't think a raise to industry pay levels is such a big deal. Unions have been doing it for decades now.


While you were busy drinking the management coolaid and bending over to their demands, our pilots were meeting with management to improve our wages and work rules. In fact, a couple of the traditional posters on this site served with distinction on the negotiating team. In a span of 3 years they managed to pass up the great UAL. Now you're lower than us. Doesn't that make you the under-cutter?

An "undercutter" specifically takes steps to undercut the rest of the industry in order to gain competitive advantage. Like pilots at your airline were doing. We didn't actively "undercut" anyone. We came down to the new wage that the "undercutters" set for the industry. Now, if during bankruptcy we had come down to 80 or 90 bucks an hour for a narrowbody Captain with no retirement and no work rules, THEN you could call us undercutters. We didn't do that.

And you finally bring your wages up to the industry's (still waiting to see these rates?) in the span of our last contract and you call us undercutters? That doesn't even make sense? How can we undercut someone when we haven't had the chance to renegotiate our contract?


Keep screaming your case UAL...disregard the facts if they're too painful...blame everyone else for your plight. Whatever it takes to sleep better.

I sleep better knowing that I'm doing my little part trying to make this profession better. I'd sleep better if there were less Allegiants/Skybus'/Virgins flying narrowbody mainline aircraft around for substandard wages.

 

[chperplt]

All this talk about substandard wages....


Would you like to compare pay stubs? Using your 12 year 737 rates at guarantee ($133 and 65) for the first 4 months of the years, I've exceeded that number by nearly 10K already... and I've only flown about 160 hours this year.... but we have substandard work rules as well.

 

[Ameriagle]

We get it too, UAL...you're so busy screaming that you're not listening. Take a break man...go get some air. And please--quit repeating "non-union, undercutting airline". We get it: you feel we are bringing you guys down. You are going to stand on that box and scream it for weeks no matter what data is presented to you. Whatever you do, don't let the facts cloud your argument.

Last time: a non-union, non-undercutting (upper-cutting?) airline has outperformed your beloved union monolithic dinosaur. We didn't negotiate away your wages and benefits--you did, and you're still pay dues for that...

While you were busy drinking the management coolaid and bending over to their demands, our pilots were meeting with management to improve our wages and work rules. In fact, a couple of the traditional posters on this site served with distinction on the negotiating team. In a span of 3 years they managed to pass up the great UAL. Now you're lower than us. Doesn't that make you the under-cutter?

Keep screaming your case UAL...disregard the facts if they're too painful...blame everyone else for your plight. Whatever it takes to sleep better.

Seriously, take a breather and try to enjoy your life.

D1

Well put D1!

UAL Driver can stick his head in the sand....at least he sleeps better at night. He plays his union card, that makes him feel better. I spent 8 years at 2 union carrier's and I can make a strong argument that the idea of a union is a whole lot more effective than my union EVER was! Oh well, I concede.....apparently we are in p*ss*ng match with a 5 year old!

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Hey, I'm all for getting more pay, but I don't think our pay rates have anything to do with yours.

The fact that a small airline like Allegiant can compete financially is amazing to me since the odds are stacked against us.
We pay some of the highest fuel prices in the industry, we have no cargo contracts to offset passenger losses, we pay some of the highest Mx rates because we have to contract out a lot of our maintenance. We also have to pay for a lot of advertising because we don't have an established brand name that everybody knows about, and we don't participate in travel agency websites.

With all those added costs, it's amazing that we're able profit at all; and we do it without competing on any of your routes and with older airplanes.

Also, I don't really care what Virgin America and Skybus pilots were paid because our pay rates were still raised even with them around. They had no effect on us; our company's financial performance is what allowed us to negotiate higher pay.

If you really want to complain about airlines undercutting you, head over to the regional forum. UAL management is the one that allowed them to take your flying for ultra low wages. UAL could easily have served smaller markets with large airplanes...we do.