Allegiant Reports First Quarter 2008 Financial Results

[labbats]

Not to worry, my post was directed towards Fubijaakr.

 

[fly4surf]

I think you are in the clear caveman.

You have been spot on.

 

[Ameriagle]

tico,

Don't forget Alaska has been around 75 years. How long was the last "good idea" airline that solely served LAS around? 5 years? Do you remember their name?

I wouldn't give a plugged nickel for Allegiant's long term survival flying MD-80s in this environment. Additionally, do you really WANT to be a pariah among other airline pilots? Someone who goes to work for a non-Union carrier who undercuts YOUR salary by $50 an hour?

If you do, you'd better move to LAS because more and more Union pilots are refusing to give jumpseat rides to people who are stabbing us in the back.

For the record I have NEVER had a union pilot be anything but gracious when jumpseating, so your FI posturing is pointless....funny actually! I do commute and the question I usually get is "are you hiring." Yes Sir....thanks for the ride!

 

[BRA]

For the record I have NEVER had a union pilot be anything but gracious when jumpseating, so your FI posturing is pointless....funny actually! I do commute and the question I usually get is "are you hiring." Yes Sir....thanks for the ride!

I think that guy made a fake post to piss us off. I was up all last night thinking about what to do about it. For what it is worth, airline pilot central doesn't exactly paint the best picture of what our pay really is considering profit sharing and inflationary increases. Just as well, the entire industry minus SWA is still very far behind where it used to be in august of 2001. Considering inflation.....we have a long way to go to get things back where they need to be now.

 

[Ameriagle]

I think most at AAY would consider our compensation package a work in progress. However, a 40% gain in recent years in not insignificant, especially in light of the current environment we operate in. Things are going in the right direction, and will continue as long as we are profitable. It just takes time. How many years did Southwest turn a profit before they had a compensation package that could be called industry leading or even industry average?

 

[Beetle007]

How many years did Southwest turn a profit before they had a compensation package that could be called industry leading or even industry average?

Southwest didn't become industry leading until they dragged everyone else down. 10 years ago A320 and B737 pilots were making 200+ an hour at legacy airlines. What is that adjusted for inflation?

 

[ualdriver]

Southwest didn't become industry leading until they dragged everyone else down. 10 years ago A320 and B737 pilots were making 200+ an hour at legacy airlines. What is that adjusted for inflation?

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

 

[crxpilot]

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

Just like you will rationalize United's pathetic payrates and abysmal work rules I'm sure......

 

[labbats]

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

This from a 737 captain at United.

UAL 737 FO pay...
1st year - $32
2nd year - $50

AAY MD80 FO pay...
1st year - $41
2nd year - $51
3rd year - oh wait -- there are no 3rd year FOs unless they choose to be.

How long is that UAL upgrade again?

 

[chperplt]

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

I think it's time for you to start wrapping around your brain that the industry you joined 30 years ago is gone. I would love if you were still making 200+ an hour.

Those days are gone however and will never come back. It's not my fault or the fault of any of those airlines you mention. You're the one who stands to lose a lot more than you already have if you don't get the chip off your shoulder.

 

[Daytonaflyer]

Southwest didn't become industry leading until they dragged everyone else down. 10 years ago A320 and B737 pilots were making 200+ an hour at legacy airlines. What is that adjusted for inflation?

I don't think that's true. In 1998, United Airlines was paying it's most senior widebody pilots $192/hr, then Delta came along with a new contract and raised the bar by paying $196/hr to it's most senior widebody pilots. That is the highest the pay ever went and the B737 pilot pay was quite a bit lower.

Second, contrary to popular belief on these boards, Southwest didn't bring the industry pay down. Legacy airline pay continued to rise until 9/11. The only other times when legacy pay trended downward was during times of bankruptcy.

 

[Desert1]

He-he. I think you're wasting your time Beetle. I think we all just have to hope that the payrates at airlines like Allegiant, Virgin, Skybus, etc., aren't the "new" payrates the industry gets dragged down to. It seems like the pilots at these airlines will rationalize those rates "to the death."

Just too many pilots chasing too few jobs unfortunately........

ualdriver

This is comical. Not to engage in the traditional childish pissing contest on "who has the better airline" ( I really wish UAL the best), but again, Allegiant's negotiated (future) payrates are comparable and, in many cases, even exceed those at United. These are facts. If you think about it, these facts serve to contradict the basic premise of your argument: that Allegiant is bringing down UAL rates. Quite the contrary: A non-union, new LCC has succesfully (and very quickly) surpassed the payscales of the mighty UAL. If UALPA has a hair in there "collective bargaining" a$$, it should be easy to use higher paying LCCs like Allegiant as a comparison to negotiate a higher UAL payscale. This would be amusing if it weren't so tragic.

As for others, I certainly hope you are not insinuating that it was the smaller LCCs that have brought down the pay rates of the Legacy/Majors. LCCs have been around since the dawn of the jet era and have had nothing to do with the demise of your earning power. You may want to do a little research into what airline management has been able to wrangle away from ALPA unions over the last couple of decades. This was due to a large variety of factors involving, among other things, over-capacity, 9/11, the economy, globalization, fuel, labor costs, maintaining aging fleets, consumer demand/expectations, etc.

For their part, through greed, ALPA pilots have been, to an extent, the authors of their own demise. They've allowed management to divide and conquer by pitting groups against each other (senior vs. junior) and give away scope (RJs). As bad as airline managers are known to be, they've outsmarted pilots every step of the way. If the level of ignorance and maturity displayed on this site is any indication, this shouldn't come as a surprise...

Admittedly a simplistic history, but I actually have a life and you could write a book on this stuff.

In any event, good luck in your career at UAL--seriously. I would like nothing more than to see every pilot's pay return to the previous levels. In the meantime, enough with the blaming, gloating, slamfest that takes place on this site. We're all in this together and as things are going, any one of us could be applying at any one of the surviving carriers.

It's about facts and information to get through what will be a very tough career for ALL of us. It's a shame this potentially valuable medium has become the 'us-vs-them' circus of childish trash-talking.

Peace.

D1

 

[ualdriver]

I love it!!

To the last several posters: I love the way you Allegiant, ex-Skybus, and Virgin pilots defend your payrates. Talk about comical.

Of course Southwest, JetBlue, Airtan, Frontier, Western Pacific, Vanguard, etc., etc., had nothing to do with dragging down legacy payrates!! It was all the reasons you all mentioned EXCEPT low cost carrier pilots flying narrow gauge aircraft for less than 1/2 the going rate with no retirment and no work rules. Labor rates, especially before the latest run-up in fuel prices, were an airline's largest controllable costs by FAR. But of course, labor costs play such a small, small roll in an airline's cost structure it just doesn't matter!! I would be surprised if any ONE of you have actually ever read an airline's annual report or waded through a 10Q or visited DOT websites learning about things about an airline's costs, but you all know that 90/hr narrowbody pilots have NO EFFECT and HAD NO EFFECT on legacy pilot pay rates. Yup, got it.

Yup, also got it that if your airline has a quick upgrade, it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour to fly a multi-million dollar aircraft with 100+ people in the back. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour as long as you're home every night. Got it.

I also understand that it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour if you pay your F/O's a higher rate that a UA pilots' F/O rate. Got it.

I also understand that if you have a wonderful relationship with management it's OK to pay Captains 90 bucks an hour. Got it.

I also understand that if your airline is "just starting out" it's OK to pay your Captains 90 bucks an hour in order to subdize your airline's bottom line until it can steal a little legacy market share- or at least enough to get your non-union airline on its feet. Got it.

I've learned alot from the pilots at such airlines at Allegiant, Skybus, and Virgin. As I read these arguments/rationalizations, I'm wondering if UA ALPA should take a different tact with our negotiations in the up and coming months. I think we should argue to eliminate our retirement, lower our wages to the lowest of the ultra-low cost carriers, and get rid of our work rules. The following beneficial things will happen:

1) UAL will be able to undercut the pilots at other carriers who are actually trying to raise the pay, retirement, and QOL of union pilots.

2) UAL will then be able to grow at the expense of our compeitors, greatly reducing upgrade time.

3) UAL pilots, by agreeing to such low wages, will be ENTHUSIASTICALLY embraced by our management as "team players" and the pilot-management relationship will go from sour to FANTASTIC SUPER AWESOME.

4) UAL will be able to order lots of new airplanes, which will reduce our upgrade time even further!

But of course, the party will only last for a while as we put out of business our competitors or force them to compete by lowering their wages as well. Oh wait, I forgot. Pilot wages have/had nothing to do with the downward spiral we've seen in the past. Nevermind.

I'm drafting a resolution for our next Union meeting. I'll let you know how it goes.

ualdriver

 

[Daytonaflyer]

ualdriver,
Not that it matters, but we already have captain pay rates equal to yours; they go into effect this year.
Have you seen the new rates? They're a little higher than NWA, and US Air's and about equal to UAL's. We we have work rules too.
Most importantly, our group is happy. I was talking a captain last week who is furloughed by AA and he's praying that Allegiant continues to do well so he can defer his recall because doesn't want to go back to AA. That's gotta tell you something.
I'm not complaining either, I only worked 4 days last month. In fact I've only worked about 20 days in the last three months. I have so much free time on my hands I'm gonna have to take up a hobby. My only dilemna is: should I buy another motorcycle or a jet ski?

Now UAL is one of the lower paying airlines; Southwest, Airtran, and JetBlue all pay better and they still out perform UAL financially. How do you explain that?

 

[chperplt]

Don't waste your time fellas.... He needs to be able to justify to himself why some of us are making more money than he is.

Sure... he may have much better retirement, but it won't do him much good when they file for BK again.

As for work rules... UAL has such great work rules, how much pay did your 777 guys lose when they were stuck overseas when the planes were grounded? Even AAY pays for cancellations.