All Nwa Groups Now Have A Bullseye

[Deli Guy]

Hey vtwo,
Yes, $24.50 is too much.

Hey 320AV8R,
Good posts.

 

[vtwo]

Deli guy. I say your wrong. 24.50 hr times 40hr a week =980 per week

980 per week times 52 weeks =50,960$ that is the bottom of middle class. do you recomend that we pay minimum wage for people to clean, and stock our planes. imigrant may be or high schoolers or drop outs with no career intention . or do we pay a decent wage to mature adults who will not be putting a special package on you plane when somone gives him 5000. extra to look away.


Think about it you get waht you pay for. If everthing was about doing it the cheapest way you can, you would not have a quality product.

SAFE ,SMART, LEGAL,

Not cheap cheap and just bareley good enough

 

[vtwo]

Oh yea deli guy.

Your job is on the list of cuts also

all of labor is being attacked. your no better than a cleaner, a mechanic, a flight engineer, or a manager. Labor is labor and it costs what they negotiate

 

[Redmeat]

http://www.startribune.com/stories/465/5585717.html

Good ol' Northwest Airlines.

 

[Deli Guy]

Hey v two,
I disagree. $51,000 is a bunch of money for a company to pay someone to take out the trash. That $52,000 does not count the medical, dental, retirement. That is why the regionals and the LCC's pay about $12.00 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. That is why NW mgmt demanded cuts. When AMFA boxed themselves in through outrageous negotiating, NW mgmt cut them off at the knees (as predicted by ALPA) I know my job is on the line and that is why I have a labor organization called ALPA to represent me. I support them.

The concept that it would take an extra $5000 for someone to slip something extra on my airplane is.......kooky. The guys who want something on my airplane would do it for 72 virgins in Valhalla or... wherever.

The concept that all of labor is under attack should be directed to most of us on this board. Again, I am not sure where you work but I see a 757 on your profile. Why get mad at me for standing by ALPA. That is my labor union. Is that not marxist enough for you? Should I wear a red arm band and burn American flags in the street until all lazy uneducated people who clean up the trash are elevated to $51,000 plus benefits? Airline labor is under attack because it is a business. If someone can do it cheaper, everyone must do it cheaper, and those that do not react--die. LCCs and regionals are doing it cheaper. That is what NW management is smashing in our face.
Again, with no bitterness or anger, what is driving these draconian demands is the changed landscape in the aviation industry. LCC guys get on this board and slam me because I do not stand by AMFA. What union do they stand by? Regional guys want me to stand up to management by supporting AMFA's crazy demands--so that their (regional guys) future is better. "Support labor!" they scream like the sheep from George Orwell's Animal Farm What are their mechanics making? We are all causing each other problems. Give NW ALPA their turn. They have only been setting the industry standard since 1929. Why not wait and see what they do?

P.S. If I do get furloughed from my pilot job, can I come live in your fantasy world where the starting pay for unskilled work starts at $51,000 plus bennies?

 

[FN FAL]

Deli guy. I say your wrong. 24.50 hr times 40hr a week =980 per week

980 per week times 52 weeks =50,960$ that is the bottom of middle class. do you recomend that we pay minimum wage for people to clean, and stock our planes. imigrant may be or high schoolers or drop outs with no career intention . or do we pay a decent wage to mature adults who will not be putting a special package on you plane when somone gives him 5000. extra to look away.

Good point...just imagine what kind of crap they could get on those planes at 5.50 an hour?

 

[FN FAL]

P.S. If I do get furloughed from my pilot job, can I come live in your fantasy world where the starting pay for unskilled work starts at $51,000 plus bennies?

I could set you up with something like that, but you'd have to be willing to learn how to produce something.

 

[Redmeat]

Hey v two,
I disagree. $51,000 is a bunch of money for a company to pay someone to take out the trash. That $52,000 does not count the medical, dental, retirement. That is why the regionals and the LCC's pay about $12.00 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. That is why NW mgmt demanded cuts.

If you agree that a NW cleaner should make what the average LCC cleaner makes, or that a NW mechanic should make what the average LCC mechanic makes, then by that rational you must believe that a NW pilot should make what the average LCC pilot makes. Correct?


Goose and Gander kinda thing.

 

[sf3boy]

Maybe....NWA will play the scope vs pension game.

You are absolutely correct. It will be interesting to see how much solidarity there is in NW ALPA when the heavy captains are asked to give up their retirement to keep the 9 routes and aircraft. I know how the senior guys would vote at my airline if we were faced with the same problem.

Don't get me wrong, I hate all of this. But here's a question: How will NW ALPA feel when 9 flying is routed to a regional 70-90 seat aircraft and BK is avoided? Will that be considered a vicotry for the pilots?

 

[sf3boy]

If you agree that a NW cleaner should make what the average LCC cleaner makes, or that a NW mechanic should make what the average LCC mechanic makes, then by that rational you must believe that a NW pilot should make what the average LCC pilot makes. Correct?


Goose and Gander kinda thing.

An excellent question.

 

[320AV8R]

You are absolutely correct. It will be interesting to see how much solidarity there is in NW ALPA when the heavy captains are asked to give up their retirement to keep the 9 routes and aircraft. I know how the senior guys would vote at my airline if we were faced with the same problem.

Don't get me wrong, I hate all of this. But here's a question: How will NW ALPA feel when 9 flying is routed to a regional 70-90 seat aircraft and BK is avoided? Will that be considered a vicotry for the pilots?

ALPA has eaten their young in the past, and will do it again.

NWA ALPA has a lot of senior guys, many on widebody equipment. They make more money, pay more dues, and have more influence as a group over the junior guys. Will I be surprised if the Pension is saved at the price of Scope.....nope.

ALPA is a poitical organization. They ebb and flow with the tide. Scabs used to be bad, until ALPA wanted CAL back........along with the scabs. ALPA sold out the TWA guys when AMR bought them......didn't want to ruffle the AMR feathers too much, since ALPA wants them back too.

Ive been around long enough to be screwed by Manangents and by ALPA; (got a furlough notice while protected by a no-furlough clause. Yep...I got furloughed).

Nothing would surprise me at this point. (Well, amost nothing).

320AV8R

 

[scabseeker]

Should I wear a red arm band and burn American flags in the street until all lazy uneducated people who clean up the trash are elevated to $51,000 plus benefits?

I thought lazy people didn't work at all but now you are calling trash cleaners lazy? That is pretty dciked up. What do you think places would look like without cleaners?

 

[tico]

Hey v two,
I disagree. $51,000 is a bunch of money for a company to pay someone to take out the trash. That $52,000 does not count the medical, dental, retirement. That is why the regionals and the LCC's pay about $12.00 an hour with no benefits and no retirement. That is why NW mgmt demanded cuts. When AMFA boxed themselves in through outrageous negotiating, NW mgmt cut them off at the knees (as predicted by ALPA) I know my job is on the line and that is why I have a labor organization called ALPA to represent me. I support them.

The concept that it would take an extra $5000 for someone to slip something extra on my airplane is.......kooky. The guys who want something on my airplane would do it for 72 virgins in Valhalla or... wherever.

The concept that all of labor is under attack should be directed to most of us on this board. Again, I am not sure where you work but I see a 757 on your profile. Why get mad at me for standing by ALPA. That is my labor union. Is that not marxist enough for you? Should I wear a red arm band and burn American flags in the street until all lazy uneducated people who clean up the trash are elevated to $51,000 plus benefits? Airline labor is under attack because it is a business. If someone can do it cheaper, everyone must do it cheaper, and those that do not react--die. LCCs and regionals are doing it cheaper. That is what NW management is smashing in our face.
Again, with no bitterness or anger, what is driving these draconian demands is the changed landscape in the aviation industry. LCC guys get on this board and slam me because I do not stand by AMFA. What union do they stand by? Regional guys want me to stand up to management by supporting AMFA's crazy demands--so that their (regional guys) future is better. "Support labor!" they scream like the sheep from George Orwell's Animal Farm What are their mechanics making? We are all causing each other problems. Give NW ALPA their turn. They have only been setting the industry standard since 1929. Why not wait and see what they do?

P.S. If I do get furloughed from my pilot job, can I come live in your fantasy world where the starting pay for unskilled work starts at $51,000 plus bennies?

Bottom line for you Deli and the rest of NWA ALPA......You are looked to as the leaders as it relates to Unions at your airline....Had you chosen to HONOR amfa's position so to would have every other union on your property...A PEB would have convened against the wishes of your management and caused all of you to continue to work...the result of that decision would be that there would be no more 50,000.00 cleaners at your airline and your QUALIFIED mechanics would make less than they do now and NWA would not be preparing for bankruptcy and more importantly several years of union busting planning would have been destroyed probably causing a complete expulsion of your current mgmnt. ranks and bringing some hope to the people of NWA that a team with ability and vision and patience would be assembled to return NWA to some semblance of it's former self..........

But that did not happen, instead your MEC responded with a typical selfish and ego driven plan......We will not HONOR our mechanics position....of course with a lack of leadership on ALPA's part, all of the other unions fell in line and helped complete your ceo's master plan.....Replace the mechanics with scabs who will do what they are told, who will never organize in the future and will accept cuts to their meager pay and benefit plan in the future without a whimper.....knowing that ALPA will not help the flight attendants, cut there ranks by 50% and replace all foreign flying with cheap asian workers who culturally will always do what they are told.... when the remaining F?A's try to strike they will be locked out and replaced with all ready trained scabs who again will do as they are told and will also accept future pay and benefit cuts without a whimper and who will never organize as well........which leaves ALPA... not a problem for Steenland and company....drive the ship into the safe harbor of bankruptcy.....your precious pension will go like a fart in the wind followed by scope....that enables them to furlough another third of your pilot group and send that domestic connection to the emb170,s and 190,s that are now configured with first and business class as well as coach being flown by 2 pilots and 2 f/a's that when combined barely clear 100,00.00 for the year all with no pension and hardly any benefits to speak of... leaving ALPA with transcon positioning for international flying..... good deal for NWA but you guys will be doing it for 40% less than you do it now and career progression will be as stagnant as a good frog pond........Personally I could give rip about what happens to you guys now but I work for an airline that heavily code shares with you guys and has an AMFA unit. And thanks to your leaderships incredible short- sightedness, we will now all have to fight the same damn fight that you could have ended...our mgmnt goons will be drooling over Steenland like a god, trying to learn all they can about how to perfect the art of EGO and GREED...the difference will be that our alpa unit will honor what amfa or afa or any of the other unions choose to do as it concerns a legal strike......and one more thing.....no more riding in the cockpit for you guys when I am at work period and I am far from the only one who feels that way....you guys have brought shame upon your house now live with it..........

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Bottom line for you Deli and the rest of NWA ALPA......You are looked to as the leaders as it relates to Unions at your airline....Had you chosen to HONOR amfa's position so to would have every other union on your property...A PEB would have convened against the wishes of your management and caused all of you to continue to work...the result of that decision would be that there would be no more 50,000.00 cleaners at your airline and your QUALIFIED mechanics would make less than they do now and NWA would not be preparing for bankruptcy and more importantly several years of union busting planning would have been destroyed probably causing a complete expulsion of your current mgmnt. ranks and bringing some hope to the people of NWA that a team with ability and vision and patience would be assembled to return NWA to some semblance of it's former self..........

But that did not happen, instead your MEC responded with a typical selfish and ego driven plan......We will not HONOR our mechanics position....of course with a lack of leadership on ALPA's part, all of the other unions fell in line and helped complete your ceo's master plan.....Replace the mechanics with scabs who will do what they are told, who will never organize in the future and will accept cuts to their meager pay and benefit plan in the future without a whimper.....knowing that ALPA will not help the flight attendants, cut there ranks by 50% and replace all foreign flying with cheap asian workers who culturally will always do what they are told.... when the remaining F?A's try to strike they will be locked out and replaced with all ready trained scabs who again will do as they are told and will also accept future pay and benefit cuts without a whimper and who will never organize as well........which leaves ALPA... not a problem for Steenland and company....drive the ship into the safe harbor of bankruptcy.....your precious pension will go like a fart in the wind followed by scope....that enables them to furlough another third of your pilot group and send that domestic connection to the emb170,s and 190,s that are now configured with first and business class as well as coach being flown by 2 pilots and 2 f/a's that when combined barely clear 100,00.00 for the year all with no pension and hardly any benefits to speak of... leaving ALPA with transcon positioning for international flying..... good deal for NWA but you guys will be doing it for 40% less than you do it now and career progression will be as stagnant as a good frog pond........Personally I could give rip about what happens to you guys now but I work for an airline that heavily code shares with you guys and has an AMFA unit. And thanks to your leaderships incredible short- sightedness, we will now all have to fight the same dang fight that you could have ended...our mgmnt goons will be drooling over Steenland like a god, trying to learn all they can about how to perfect the art of EGO and GREED...the difference will be that our alpa unit will honor what amfa or afa or any of the other unions choose to do as it concerns a legal strike......and one more thing.....no more riding in the cockpit for you guys when I am at work period and I am far from the only one who feels that way....you guys have brought shame upon your house now live with it..........

Bravo tico,,,Bravo!

 

[Boeingman]

ALPA showing it's true colors again and again and again.

Excellent post Tico. NWA ALPA and it's members can rationalize all they like, but the fact remains that union solidarity in todays airline environment is our only salvation.

NWA pilots will be a target soon and if managment breaks the AMFA, the strikers will laugh their collective asses off while the pilots captiulate to save themselves.

NWA ALPA deserves everything they have coming. It will be even uglier than any of you can imagine. You're dealing with Lorenzo schooled and trained management.

Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it.

 

[320AV8R]

Excellent post Tico. NWA ALPA and it's members can rationalize all they like, but the fact remains that union solidarity in todays airline environment is our only salvation..

Solidarity is hard when the other group tells you to shove it up your a$$.

It's amusing to see people on the outside pontificate about the goings on here.

AMFA and PFAA told ALPA to shove it, time and time again. They could give a $hit about ALPA or the other employee groups.

It's like seeing a woman, who you think is fat....but she's pregnant. Things can be different than they seem.

320AV8R

 

[320AV8R]

......and one more thing.....no more riding in the cockpit for you guys when I am at work period and I am far from the only one who feels that way....you guys have brought shame upon your house now live with it..........

Oooooh a threat.

First...you need to drink more decaf.

Second...do you have the ball$ to name your employer ? (I thought not).
I could contact our J/S chairman to remove your airline from our list. I'm sure you dont want to JS with a bunch of stupid NW pilots, now do you ?

320AV8R

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Oooooh a threat.


I could contact our J/S chairman to remove your airline from our list. I'm sure you dont want to JS with a bunch of stupid NW pilots, now do you ?

320AV8R

320 if you went to J/S and told them a guy on flightinfo made this comment, and they actually went thru all of YOUR posts on here speaking for NWA APLA, you would probably be terminated with great prejudice my friend.

 

[Boeingman]

Solidarity is hard when the other group tells you to shove it up your a$$.

It's amusing to see people on the outside pontificate about the goings on here.

AMFA and PFAA told ALPA to shove it, time and time again. They could give a $hit about ALPA or the other employee groups.

It's like seeing a woman, who you think is fat....but she's pregnant. Things can be different than they seem.

320AV8R

My pontification stems from the fact that ALPA at Continental made the same mistake in 1983 with the IAM. There were differing opionions between the union heads and a great deal of rancor. ALPA blew through the IAM picket line in August prior to the pilot strike and did not support the mechanics (or FA's).
End result was the company was succesfull in igniting wars between the employee groups while Lorenzo blindsided everyone.

So they told you to shove it. Get over it and deal with the larger and long term issue. Protecting yourselves through strength in numbers and a unified company wide workforce.

To late though, the ship has already sailed.

If you think this is amusing, you are going to be in for a real treat when Steenland takes aim at you guys. This book has already been written once. It is a shame no one cares to reread it.

 

[320AV8R]

320 if you went to J/S and told them a guy on flightinfo made this comment, and they actually went thru all of YOUR posts on here speaking for NWA APLA, you would probably be terminated with great prejudice my friend.

Willow.......you're back !!!!

I guess that Full House marathon must be over.........

Anyway, I'm not real sure what you mean, (again). I stand by anything I post.

My point was that if tico was going to so unprofessional, as to deny pilots on his list the JS, I would try to help him out. He is penalizing the regular line pilot for a situation that is beyond the line pilot's control. NWA ALPA......the organization......made the decision, and the rest of us have to live with it.

That's like us denying AirTran guys the JS, because they are flying out of DTW. AirTran management made that decision, not the individual line pilot.

If the NW pilots are sooooo disgusting, (some of us haven't bathed in weeks), then I'd eliminate tico's carrier from our list, so he wouldn't be bothered by such a horrid bunch. (Hint.....my reply to him was full of sarcasm).

As far as being terminated.......you can print out all my posts and give them to my Chief Pilot, ALPA, (not APLA), Officials, and anybody else you can think of. Nobody in either group really gives a $hit what I think anyway.

320AV8R