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All Nwa Groups Now Have A Bullseye

psycho

Whup Dat Trick
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Pfaa next. Mgt is proposing outsourcing and pay cuts. F/A's are also forced to train the scabs.

Alpa next. 22% pay cut (in addition to the 15% cut and relaxation of work rules ) and additional 1100 furloughs. Scope will be destroyed.

Then comes IAM. God only knows what NWA mgt will ask of them.

Do you folks still believe that it is not in " YOUR " best interest to honor the picket lines. When is somebody going to say enough?

I will not be happy flying the 300 seat " Regional Jet " to Asia if that is you guys are willing to lay down for.
 

RUhiring?

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Somebody needs to tell this tool that the designation, SF-340, doesn't mean it has 340 seats.
 

CLE145CA

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RUhiring? said:
Somebody needs to tell this tool that the designation, SF-340, doesn't mean it has 340 seats.

What???

He is talking about the continuing erosion of pay this profession is seeing. If this trend continues, then you will see the 300-seat A330/340 being flown at rates that could be extrapolated from the pay scales of the "small-jet" carriers. THAT is what he was referring to and hoping that NW and other mainline pilots won't allow.

The labor cost cuts have gone on for four years, with a few groups not joining the rest of their co-workers to take cuts (i.e. mechanics at NW, FA's at CAL, etc.). Should all those groups then join the rest, then management should not be asking labor to cut further. Management cannot expect to offset the costs of high fuel prices on the backs of labor by coming around for second, third, and fourth rounds of pay cuts. No one is helping us offset what we pay for fuel at the local gas station.
 

mnboyev

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FA's forced to train scabs ?? I doubt this... C'mon ....
 

mnboyev

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Didnt USAir have round 1, 2, 3 , 4, ......??
 

doh

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He may be a tool, but he has a point. My fa friends told me yesterday that NWA wants to put all asian fas on all the pacific routes. That would outsource about half the fa positions at nwa to $5/hr foriegn labor. If somebody doesn't do something soon, we may be flying a "regional jet to the pacific sooner than you think. It's pretty scary right now.
 

doh

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mnboyev said:
FA's forced to train scabs ?? I doubt this... C'mon ....

Umm... they are doing training flights with the nwa fas. Isn't that training scabs?
 

Deli Guy

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Hey Psycho,
I know it is kind of taboo to ask a guy where he works, but I am trying to get your frame of reference. It looks to me like you are at the regionals. It looks like you are angry that NWA Alpa did not support AMFA in its foolish strategy of being seperated from the pack and being devoured by hyenas. I would think that you would be content at your chosen profession where you have chosen to fly as an rj captain for 60-90 thousand with few benefits and no retirement. Could it be that you are looking for a brighter future? Why is my job (that used to have great pay and benefits) at a major airline not what it used to be? Its called competition. With no bitterness or anger I will tell you that one of the reasons that NWA management thinks it can get the draconian cuts that it wants is simply because you can replace me. I think you should organize a strike among all rj employees--even better--, just walk away from your jobs completly! That will show NWA mgmt that they need me and they will stop trying to cut my pay and benefits. Is that reasonable? That is what you are asking me to do. If the pilots walked we could/would end up like EAL. The company could/would liquidate. Steenland would get a bonus for his shrewd sell off of the assets and then--surprise--another startup would emerge from the ashes to compete with you.
Just let NWA Alpa have its at bats. They have done a pretty good job so far. Not perfect, but they are only human.
Yes, PFAA is next. They need to work another plan besides "no paycuts" because they are in competition with what your FA's work for.
Then it is ALPA's turn. I expect management to be a bunch of snarling, rabid, herpes infested hyenas when they come after us. NW alpa seems to be prepared and has a long history of dealing with the "animals". I have a lot to lose and I back NWA ALPA.
 

WillowRunVortex

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mnboyev said:
FA's forced to train scabs ?? I doubt this... C'mon ....

That is exactly what happened. The PFAA were forcred to train their own "replacement" workers on actual "IOE" flights. If they refused to train them they were disiplined. NWA management has 1200 scab fa's waiting to do exactly what they did to the mechanics. Nice place huh?
 

mnboyev

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Competition..... is good to a point. I have no bone in the fight.. But I do have lots of friends over at redtail. Spent 9 years there myself in MX. So I still have a little red blood left... Even as I sit in my AirTran psuedo RJ with 117 plush seats. Still have a meatball on my arse.

Alpa did the right thing it seems.. However, it seems one cannot run an airline by gutting the employees. Change the business plan Steenland ! It is not about market share. is it? Maybe, they should focus on the high end markets.... Asia.. Europe.. Business.. Cargo..?? Instead they worry about secondary markets. ie Flint. What does it cost to fight in Flint ? What is the cost to employees?

What about Boston? How much do all those new RJ's cost?

It seems... maybe I'm wrong (I hope so) the labor lawyers are left to steer the ship one more time at NWA... Pretty sad. Employees at NWA have given much with loyalty and hard work... Only to be hit in the teeth.

Wages and benefits are not the answer... Fix the business.. Business leaders.. Thats what you get the big bucks for...
 

Tim47SIP

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It's rough out there!

That is exactly what happened. The PFAA were forcred to train their own "replacement" workers on actual "IOE" flights. If they refused to train them they were disiplined. NWA management has 1200 scab fa's waiting to do exactly what they did to the mechanics. Nice place huh?

Maybe it's called survival! Read the Deli's posts. He is correct in that the mechanics are demanding way more than NWA can deliver in todays environment. The Union needed to do their research instead of the total conspiracy theory route. ALPA did their homework and tried to help the AMFA and the PFAA. The AMFA is natorious for their hard tactics that usually leads to backpeddaling by Uninion Officials. I dont think their leadership are the brightest crayons in the box. As for the $5.00 an hour Asian workers, I am being told that is simply not the case, but logistically it seems plausible.

By the way, what are those so called "1200 fa scabs" doing now. Are they on the payroll? Were they trained, received background checks, drug testing, uniforms, etc., and they just sitting at home waiting for the call? Let us know, please.
 

WillowRunVortex

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Tim47SIP said:
By the way, what are those so called "1200 fa scabs" doing now. Are they on the payroll? Were they trained, received background checks, drug testing, uniforms, etc., and they just sitting at home waiting for the call? Let us know, please.

First of all I was just stating facts. It was suggested that there wasnt any way the fa's were training scabs. They did.

Now as to your later question. These "replacements" were given all of the above. They were given paid hotel. They were given $60 a day for training (20 days), $3000 bonus for completing training and getting certified. Then $500 a month until needed. Yes they are at home, they will be given 7 days notice to be positioned at hotels in strategic areas. They are not on payroll. They will become full fledged NWA FA's the day they cross a PFAA picket line and fly an actual NWA revenue trip. At that point they will be incorporated into the NWA seniority list with all of the benefits that entails.

The ruff estimate is that all this cost the company aprox. $1 mil.

Oh, and by the way, if there is no strike they will not be used at all, and probably never become NWA flight attendants.

Now Tim47SIP, before you get on this board and act like you know what YOU are talking about, I suggest YOU do YOUR "homework."
 
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Andy

12/13/2012
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I agree with Psycho. The ramifications of this will effect every airline and union.
If anyone thinks for a nanosecond that AMFA was going to be able to pass a concessionary contract that called for a 53% reduction in AMFA workforce would pass, I would suggest that you go back to elementary school and take some more math classes.
As for the FAs training scab replacements, I'm surprised that so few have heard of that.
NWA management may be evil, but they're smart; the smartest SOBs that unions have come up against. We union workers can hang together, or we will surely all hang separately.

RUhiring, I would suggest a reading comprehension course for you. Psycho does not want to see further erosion of pilot contracts. I'm hoping that UAL has given the last concession; between PBS, increased productivity (flying more hours), and unlimited 70 seat RJs, I've had an extra 2-3 years added to my furlough.
 

320AV8R

DUMP ALPA
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DeliGuy and Tim47SIP are correct.

UAL is NW's major competitor. Their employee groups have ended up with lean contracts. Then you have the LCCs. In order to compete, NWA Management wants to transform the airline into a UAL/LCC operation. (Big surprise).

AMFA
NWA has (had) more in-house mechanics....at higher pay rate than any other airline. The AMFA fiasco was designed to reduce the in-house mechanics, and eliminate cleaners that make $52 per hour. How can they justify cleaners making $52 per hour when other airlines don't even have cleaners ? Most other carriers only have line mx and contract out heavy mx. (BTW, I do not agree with what happened to the mechanics.....and the "new" ones can't find their a$$ with a map & a flashlight).

PFAA
Management wants to lean out the costs here, too. They want to outsource 50% of the Asia flying to local F/As. Low wages, no benefits, etc.... I assume to compete with Cathay, JAL, Singapore, etc.... The "new trainees" are trained by Supervisors, and for IOE, they do the drink / meal service only. The regular F/As don't "train" them, but will work along side them if there aren't enough trainees. The "real" F/As have to arm the doors, etc....

ALPA
The latest proposal is a copy of the current......you guessed it....UAL agreement. A NW -400 CA makes $240 per hour....while a UAL CA makes $178. A NW 757 CA makes $50 more per hour than a Cactus guy. They want reductions here too, so there will be some money for Executive bonuses !!

The bottom line is competition. Forget about a business plan or raising ticket prices !! These Lorenzo-made management-types are determined to transform this place into a big LCC......on the back of Labor. Frank would approve of their Employee Jihad.

They would love to have a company without any employees, since we are a liability, rather than an asset.

320AV8R
 
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Widow's Son

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Why Big Labor hasn't aided striking machinists

By Alexandra Marks | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

As Northwest mechanics begin Week 2 of a strike, the stakes for the union are rising fast. The airline is talking about hiring its replacement workers permanently, and it insists that it's running "adequately" without the strikers. No new talks are scheduled.

If Northwest rides out the strike and succeeds in breaking the union, it could be a watershed in the history of the American labor movement, many analysts say - a key event in a long string of setbacks that have weakened the role of organized workers as a political and social force in the country.

Others, particularly representatives of major unions themselves, say that is nothing more than hyperbole.

They believe this mechanics' strike is unique to Northwest and to the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), which represents the 4,400 striking workers. Indeed, AMFA is something of a pariah in the labor movement, because it built its strength by luring workers from more established unions, such as the International Association of Machinists. Leaders inside the AFL-CIO, in fact, often don't refer to AMFA as a union at all but as, in the words of one, an "organization started by a bunch of lawyers that has touted elitism instead of solidarity."

Some labor experts go so far as to infer that Northwest isn't alone in wanting to break AMFA, speculating that Big Labor, which has not come to AMFA's aid, would not shed too many tears if it fell.

"This is payback time for AMFA. That's the way the labor movement is looking at it," says Gary Chaison, a professor of industrial relations at Clark University in Worcester, Mass. "Raiding is a sin, and [they believe] AMFA raided and won [by] saying it would never accept concessions. It'll be much easier for other unions to tell members that they must accept concessions if AMFA was killed for not doing it."

The major unions dispute that view, insisting that they support the mechanics wholeheartedly. It's just the AMFA organization they have trouble with.

"There's always support for the workers, but as far as AMFA as an organization there is probably little or no support," says Ellie Larson of the Association of Flight Attendants in Washington. "It's a renegade union run by businessmen for their own profit. And this is exactly why an independent union that's not associated with the larger labor movement won't work."

If pilots and flight attendants honored the AMFA picket lines, Northwest would never be able to break the mechanics union, Ms. Larson says. "It's no coincidence that our message always centers around solidarity."

From the perspective of the AMFA picket line, that kind of talk makes no sense. "It's really quite a quandary for them," says Steve MacFarlane, AMFA's assistant national director. "I don't know how you hold those two ideas in your head: 'We believe in organized labor, but these AMFA guys, they're not welcome.' "

Mr. MacFarlane suggests that the larger union movement is being petty at the expense of the striking mechanics, a move that could impact other workers in labor disputes across the country. Professor Chaison concurs, especially now that Northwest is talking about hiring the replacement workers permanently. "What Northwest is doing here is two things: They're telling AMFA that 'we're going to do without you, this will essentially break you, and we can get away with it,' " he says. "The other thing they're doing is serving a warning to their other unions ... so the other unions won't even press their case."

As a result AMFA believes it's in other unions' best interest to support it. It also disputes the AFL-CIO's contention that it "raided" other unions' members. IAM mechanics at Northwest and United had come to AMFA, not the other way around, says MacFarlane. The mechanics were dissatisfied with their current representation, he contends, but more important, they wanted their own craft-based union, like the pilots and the flight attendants have.

"All of these people are welcome in the AFL-CIO. Why aren't we?" asks MacFarlane. "It's because AMFA is an independent union, and independent unions are not welcome in the union family. They've set up this system whereby they want to have a monopoly on all of the workers in this country."

But one union member's monopoly is another's mass solidarity movement. From the AFL-CIO's perspective, it's AMFA that has been playing outside the rules.

"They come in when workers are most disgruntled and most disturbed, when unions have had to give back in the face of the declining revenues and bankruptcies in the industry," says Larson. "They use others' misfortune as their platform."

Even as this union battle simmers beneath the AMFA strike, labor experts like Chaison say a larger labor war could be lost. The strike comes at a time of "tremendous weakness" in the labor movement, he says. If Northwest management succeeds, the larger movement could be tarnished in two crucial ways, Chaison adds. It would send a signal to US workers "that unions result in strikes and lost jobs" at the same time it would "embolden American business."

"Northwest could give seminars on how to break a union," he says. "If the situation is right, and you're willing to invest the time and money, you don't have to worry about strikes because you can get what you want."

But the labor movement insists that's not the case. "You cannot make broad conclusions. This is an exceptional situation that involves a particular organization," says Esmeralda Aguilar of the AFL-CIO. "I don't think this will have wider implications because of the nature of this particular organization."
 

320AV8R

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"It's because AMFA is an independent union, and independent unions are not welcome in the union family.

What is this guy smokin' ?

I guess since the pilot "unions" at SWA, UPS, AirTran, etc.... aren't ALPA, they aren't unions either ?

Gimme a break,

320AV8R
 

Dave Benjamin

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If ALPA supported AMFA and threatened to walk do you think Bush would have set up a PEB?

If so AMFA mechs would still be working at contract rates and the scabs would remain on payroll but on the sidelines, correct?

Seems like that would leave labor in a better position.
 
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sf3boy

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The reason that ALPA doesn't honor the mechanics picket line due to them being non AFL-CIO has got to take the award for the weakest dick excuse ever. It is just a nice diversion. ALPA will only honor a picket line and it financially benefits them, i.e. their own picket line.

ALPA claims that if the airline shutdown, BK would then soon follow. News flash to ALPA......BK court has a better than 90% chance of being in your future anyway. The FA's are next up and management is looking to lay off scores of them. After that, here they come for the pilots. NWA ALPA can toss their scope section right into the trash.

Of course, this is all my own speculation. I hope it goes 180 degrees the other way, but NWA has been planning this for a lot longer than anyone cares to admit.
 

320AV8R

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sf3boy said:
The reason that ALPA doesn't honor the mechanics picket line due to them being non AFL-CIO.......
What evidence do you have to support this claim ? It has nothing to do with AMFA not being part of the AFL-CIO.

ALPA claims that if the airline shutdown, BK would then soon follow.
Yea....like in a matter of days. Would that be in the pilot's best interest ? Loss of pensions, gutted contract, scope.....what scope ?

News flash to ALPA......BK court has a better than 90% chance of being in your future anyway.
Maybe...maybe not, time will tell. But it's better to avoid it, if possible, thereby retaining some control in the bargaining process.

The FA's are next up and management is looking to lay off scores of them. After that, here they come for the pilots. NWA ALPA can toss their scope section right into the trash.
Maybe....NWA will play the scope vs pension game.

Of course, this is all my own speculation.
Thank God for that.

I hope it goes 180 degrees the other way, but NWA has been planning this for a lot longer than anyone cares to admit

I hope it works out, too. They have planned it........just like the Pilot Lockout fiasco in 1998, that cost them One Billion Dollars.

320AV8R
 

vtwo

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320 , what cleaner ever made 52.00 hr?
I know cleaners, and mechanics there. Is 52.00 hr the pay they get for double time and a half maybe. ie... 8hr reg pay for holiday plus time and a half for working on the hloiday. really the nubers are about 24.50 hr for a cleaner.. is that too much in your eyes.???
 
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