ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[PCL_128]

PCL - Lawson's action in reply to the Delta pilots' legitimate request to open Comair to furloghees was one of the worst political moves I've ever seen and harmed the pilots he represented.

That was always JC's big weakness. He has a deep seated disdain for DAL pilots, even though he won't admit it. He can't see straight when it comes time to deal directly with them. Despite this big bone-headed move, he is generally regarded well within the Association, and was certainly a respected member of the EC. In most cases, he's a good politician, and he knows how to get things done. He just can't keep his head straight when it comes time to deal with DALPA. This seemed to change somewhat when Lee Moak came in. I was at a few events that were attended by both of them, and they seemed to be getting along well. Hopefully things will work better between DALPA and JC in the future.

 

[IronCityBlue]

The scope of DFR (pun intended)

I bet the Eagle pilots wish they had some DFR to hold over the APA pilots..... but they don't..... The APA is free to screw the Eagle pilots over without any DFR concerns......

While true that the Eagle pilots would have no DFR against the APA regardless of what they negotiate, is it your contention that Delta (or any other ALPA airline) is prohibited from submitting a pay scale to management and flying 70 seat CRJ aircraft?

If its A-OK for that flying to be outsourced to Non union SkyWest, E-170 flying to IBT Republic group, etc, why can't any mainline agree with their management to do that flying themselves?

If you are to say "but that could hurt ALPA ASA" (or whoever, same example) how is that any different than non ALPA airlines getting that work by being the lowest bidders?

As for what a mainline group says other ALPA groups (ASA in this example) can or can not do "on their own" why isn't that in their rights as well? For example, DALPA can't fly EV (that's ASA's code, right?) code flights without the permission of the ASA pilots. No one argues with that. ASA can't fly DL code without DALPA permission. They have permission to do so, but that permission comes with restrictions.

The entire ability to fly DL code was contained in the DALPA contract, and they have chosen to make exceptions and exemptions. Each one of those exceptions is tied to the length of their contract. While it would be extremely expensive (probably prohibitively so) for the Delta pilots to inform management they are taking it all back when management has inked long term deals with regional partners, theoretically if they wanted to what is unfair (DFR wise) about them doing that?

If the Delta scope says if ASA (again, not picking on ASA, just running with the example being used) operates a 737 or 777 anywhere within their holding company they lose the ability to fly DL code, why isn't the Delta pilot's sole right to demand that? ASA would still be 100% free and clear to fly whatever their management arranged for them to fly, but if that removes the ability for ASA to fly DL code that's unfortunate but not in violation of DFR IMHO.

Now unilaterally negotiating super seniority flow backs without the concent of all ALPA pilot groups concerned IMO would be a violation of ALPA's DFR. Delta pilots have no right whatsoever to do that unless you agree. They have no right to fly EV code, unless you agree, and even if you do agree they must abide by the terms and conditions you set forth in your agreement with EV management.

If ASA (or anyone) wants to try an "Indy Air" type operation, more power to them. But if its not in compliance with the Delta pilot agreement, the Delta pilots have the right to force their management to cancel that particular permitted outsource codeshare agreement, if that is written into the terms and conditions of Delta's code share agreement with management.

While it may seem like arrogance on the surface to suggest that Delta pilots own all DL flying and agree to outsource some of it under certain conditions, that is the way it is and there's nothing DFR wrong with that. ASA is free to negotiate any agreement with SkyWest management concerning EV code, and if you eventually get 100% holding company scope (many contracts away, if ever, it looks like) then you can set the terms of allowing your code to be outsourced.

Its been over 7 years since DF and his partners fertilized the PID embryo which became the RJDC baby the following year. All but one claim dismissed outright and the other in an eternal legal quagmire that so far has barely adjusted merely the methodology in which ALPA communicates and does certain things. Meanwhile SkyWest management does whatever it pleases, the whipsaw continues, and the RJDC is claiming partial victory and promising more on the horizon.

What specifically do you see happening with the suit that will truly make things better? The ability to do an Indy Air while still holding on to whatever ammount of the DL code that SkyWest management decides to give you today? You own your (EV) flying, and Delta owns theirs (DL). They allow some outsourcing under very specific terms. You allow none. What's non-DFR about that?

The last thing this industry needs is more outsourcing. If some pilot group gets the sack to man up and fight to get some of it back, good for them and the entire profession. It will be a very expensive fight that I don't think any group has the guts for, including AA despite their tough talk "opener". But if CAL can hold tight to no jets over 50 seats and AA can at least bring the 70 in house, maybe Delta can do the same and begin to force airline managements to actually run airlines instead of ACMI low bid lift providers. What's so unfair about that?

 

[PCL_128]

Excellent post! But Joe just doesn't get it, and never will. BTW, the lawsuit is officially history. ALPA approved the settlement proposal and the lawsuit is now dead. Thank God.

 

[IronCityBlue]

What did they settle for?

 

[Golden Falcon]

there should be no "eagle"/ "mainline" pilots...only AA pilots...this is where the mainline pilots screwed it up 2 decades ago..now it bites them in the ass

 

[PCL_128]

What did they settle for?

Partial legal fees and some additional language in the Admin Manual that requires mainline MECs to brief their regional counterpart MECs on what their scope proposals will be in negotiations. Basically, very little. The plaintiffs still had to pay considerable legal fees on their own, and the language added to the Admin Manual is very benign. Basically, 8 years of whining from the RJDC for nothing.

 

[AA717driver]

there should be no "eagle"/ "mainline" pilots...only AA pilots...this is where the mainline pilots screwed it up 2 decades ago..now it bites them in the ass

GF--No truer words have been spoken here. TC

 

[pylut]

you lost something along the way Joey.... creditibility, respect, trust, reputation, integrity...

Now if you simply remove "joey" and insert "alpa" this statement will resound with truth.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If the Delta scope says if ASA (again, not picking on ASA, just running with the example being used) operates a 737 or 777 anywhere within their holding company they lose the ability to fly DL code, why isn't the Delta pilot's sole right to demand that? ASA would still be 100% free and clear to fly whatever their management arranged for them to fly, but if that removes the ability for ASA to fly DL code that's unfortunate but not in violation of DFR IMHO.

As you eluded too later in your post. ACA was doing DL code in the D328's. When ACA told UAL to pound sand, the thought was...keep running the D328 ops for Delta.

However, the DAL pilots (DALPA) had in thier contract that no vendor (so to speak) could operate narrowbodies.

It was a choice ACA made.. and the ACA ALPA (ACO) guys understood this and didn't get all "Joey Merchant-RJDC" about it....

Now if you simply remove "joey" and insert "alpa" this statement will resound with truth.

***YAWN***

Same ol stuff from the ALPA-hater crowd. You know, the guys who do nothing and expect everything. Guys that have no clue as to the complex dynamics of the local, national and global political environment. Guys who don't keep thier address updated, don't vote, don't communicate, don't know who thier elected reps are... Guys that show up, fly thier trips and go home and expect everything to be just dandy. They think ALPA is a all inclusive resort and when they don't get thier Kaluha Coloda on demand they think ALPA is FUBAR.

Guys who created unrealistic expecations on thier own accord, then get pissed when reality smacks them about like a 2x4 upside the head... then... guess who is responsible for thier misaligned expectations? Not them...ALPA....

People who do nothing are the ones that complain the most.... oh wait you did do something... you scratched your itchy mangina on FI.

 

[AA717driver]

***YAWN***

Same ol stuff from the ALPA-hater crowd.

Maybe because it's true...

BTW, this thread is about AA, find another soapbox, Rez. TC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Maybe because it's true...

BTW, this thread is about AA, find another soapbox, Rez. TC

What is true? That pilots, like most Americans, reject the "chore" of democracy and self govenment. Create expectations and ideals and when thus doesn't become reality they refuse to accept responsibility.... yeah, that's true.... same at the APA, ALPA and the USA....


NEXT!

 

[pylut]

***YAWN***

Same ol stuff from the ALPA-hater crowd. You know, the guys who do nothing and expect everything. Guys that have no clue as to the complex dynamics of the local, national and global political environment. Guys who don't keep thier address updated, don't vote, don't communicate, don't know who thier elected reps are... Guys that show up, fly thier trips and go home and expect everything to be just dandy. They think ALPA is a all inclusive resort and when they don't get thier Kaluha Coloda on demand they think ALPA is FUBAR.

Guys who created unrealistic expecations on thier own accord, then get pissed when reality smacks them about like a 2x4 upside the head... then... guess who is responsible for thier misaligned expectations? Not them...ALPA....

People who do nothing are the ones that complain the most.... oh wait you did do something... you scratched your itchy mangina on FI.

Yawn....
talk about same old drivel! you're like a broken record player.


You can't take away his soapbox TC, it's all rez has. how would he maintain his superiority complex

 

[CopilotDoug]

So you think there should be no representation? Or all representation should be in house, with no central or 'national'.

If so, then please explain the pros and cons of such a change?

You know I am pro-in-house Union, Rez. ALPA has to play the "credibility" game or the politicians won't listen to them (not that they listen anyway) ALPA touts this as if it were a virtue when it is a weakness. That's a HUGE con about National...they can't muddy the waters, effectively rolling over on their membership.

 

[flywithruss]

And to think I slogged through 11 pages of this thinking there might be some AA information in an AA thread. Instead we're all fighting old fights over again. It is what it is, and if this is the environment we're working with, then the whole damn industry is hopeless. The past is the past ... we can rehash it or we can address the future. Take your pick.

 

[AA717driver]

And to think I slogged through 11 pages of this thinking there might be some AA information in an AA thread. Instead we're all fighting old fights over again. It is what it is, and if this is the environment we're working with, then the whole damn industry is hopeless. The past is the past ... we can rehash it or we can address the future. Take your pick.

Russ--You're right. Here's the bottom line:

The Eagle guys hate APA.

APA hates the Eagle guys.

AMR wins. TC

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yawn....
talk about same old drivel! you're like a broken record player.


You can't take away his soapbox TC, it's all rez has. how would he maintain his superiority complex

I say many don't particapte in democracy and self government (which is truth) of thier career and this is your reply? I rest my case....

You know I am pro-in-house Union, Rez. ALPA has to play the "credibility" game or the politicians won't listen to them (not that they listen anyway) ALPA touts this as if it were a virtue when it is a weakness. That's a HUGE con about National...they can't muddy the waters, effectively rolling over on their membership.

Exactly right. This is politics. (Did you think your career was anything but!!) You want ALPA to tell the politicans HOW IS GOING TO BE. Sorry it doesn't work like that. If everyone went to DC and told the politicans how it was going to be, we'd get nowhere.

Again, you have this perception that ALPA has or should have more power than it should. It never did. You just think it should.

Unions are not regulatory and they don't have deep pockets...

1. Regulatory... ALPA isn't the gov't, so they can't make laws.

2. Deep Pockets. Even management isn't the gov't, they can't make laws but they have deep pockets.

As you move down the food chain, we'll get to unions and air line pilots. As Air Line Pilots we all want to think we are wunderkinds, but in DC we are just above whalesh!t. That isn't ALPA's fault. Welcome to America.

And Copilotdoug, this is where your in-house idea would fail miserably. Mixed messages are fodder in DC. Multiple in house unions trying to get heard in DC can never work. Take a look at CAPA. A conglomerate of in house unions that form a legislative 'union' to have a voice.

Since unions are not regulatory.... they must have consensus!! If we want to make this profession something worth while, we have to speak as one voice. This is why everyone is so misreable...

The reason why you detest ALPA is because ALPA doesn't serve your career needs like you want. The reason is: you don't serve yourself and your fellow pilots. You expect to be served, so natually you are disapointed.

How can you expect the ALPA leadership to satisfy the wishes of the membership if they do not speak up. Particapte. Not involved. There is minority particaption in Air Line Pilot careers!!

Combined with the fact that ALPA has 60,000 pilots they are obligated to, not just you, in addition to its level of importance in the US economy (recall the whalesh!t example). If you wanted to have a high level of career satisfaction perhaps you should have found a better career. Who's fault is that? ALPA?

Here is friendly reminder for all you ALPA haters:

While volunteering for a good cause is important, it is not enough. This country will only survive and progress as a democracy if its citizens—young and old alike—take an active role in its political life as well.


Sad to say, that precious franchise, purchased and preserved by the blood of hundreds of thousands of Americans your age and younger from 1776 to today, has not been adequately appreciated or exercised by your generation.


In 2004, with our nation embroiled in two difficult and controversial wars, the voting percentage was only 42 percent for those aged 18 to 24.
Ed Muskie, former senator and Secretary of State, once said that “you have the God given right to kick the government around.” And it starts with voting, and becoming involved in campaigns. If you think that too many politicians are feckless and corrupt, then go out and help elect different ones. Or go out and run yourself. But you must participate, or else the decisions that affect your life and the future of our country will be made for you—and without you.


So vote. And volunteer. But also consider doing something else: dedicating at least part of your life in service to our country.
I entered public life more than 40 years ago, and no one is more familiar with the hassles, frustrations and sacrifices of public service than I am. Government is, by design of the Founding Fathers, slow, unwieldy and almost comically inefficient. Will Rogers used to say: “I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts.”


These frustrations are inherent in a system of checks and balances, of divisions and limitations of power. Our Founding Fathers did not have efficiency as their primary goal. They designed a system intended to sustain and protect liberty for the ages. Getting things done in government is not easy, but it’s not supposed to be.



I will close with a quote from a letter John Adams sent to one of their other sons, Thomas Boylston Adams. And he wrote:“Public business, my son, must always be done by somebody. It will be done by somebody or another. If wise men decline it, others will not; if honest men refuse it, others will not.”



Will the wise and the honest among you come help us serve the American people?

 

[waveflyer]

I'm not sure Rez isn't management.

Every day blaming the membership, inspiring nothing- in fact, quite the opposite. I think the republicans have used the tactics with much success over recent history. Every day- "what are you going to give up to get that?" jeez- haven't we given?

 

[PCL_128]

LOL!!!! Now that's funny. I know Rez pretty well. I can assure you that he isn't management. Just a good old fashioned union volunteer that has sacrificed his own time to benefit the membership.

 

[popgoesbubble]

Is 737pylt real name Chris Woods? does anyone Know him cuz it sure fits his profile. I'm Glad the Moderator finally banned him AGAIN! as all he does is Hijack threads whether it be a Regional or Fractional or LCC thread if you don't fly for Delta your just not cool enough in his book.

Funny thing he flew for both a Regional and a Fractional before taking his recall back to Delta? Guess it was good enough for him back then and I'm sure if he was still at the Regionals he would be on the opposite fence on the scope then he is now!

Lets all take a moment and enjoy not having 737Pylt or Mr. Woods on here anymore.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Don't know if he is, or isn't, but one of the worst sins on Flightinfo is trying to out people.