ALL Flying will performed by AA pilots

[JoeMerchant]

Gee Joey... it cost me money.... but I don't have anything to show for it..... Thanks for tying up the resoucres of my Association. Let me guess.... you tell yourself that no one understands and in Flying the Line Vol XXI you will be vindicated and hailed a true visonary.....

Stick it!!

..... don't really care how you feel about it Rez.... Members of the ASA MEC have said it helped us here at ASA...... That's all I'm concerned about......

 

[FLYLOW22]

I LOVE IT!!

Buy a ticket on AA and fly on AA!!!!

 

[PCL_128]

..... don't really care how you feel about it Rez.... Members of the ASA MEC have said it helped us here at ASA...... That's all I'm concerned about......

So you believe the MEC members when they tell you something you want to hear, but you call them a bunch of incompetent buffoons when you and your older girlfriend are trying to get rid of them last election?

 

[PCL_128]

What garbage. This was a pretty good thread.

Joe's positions do not reflect what the RJDC was trying to accomplish.

Actually, I think it's the other way around. Joe's positions are exactly representative of the plaintiffs and the officers of the RJDC (remember, Joe was an RJDC officer at one point). It's your positions that were always too common-sense and reasonable for the real RJDC blowhards. Joe is just showing everyone what the RJDC was really all about: "me, me, me, me, me!!!!!"

 

[~~~^~~~]

Which position is that fins? Do you think you should have any superseniority at ASA now if things start to go south?

I'm curious as to which part of my position you are now opposed to?

It was always rational that if the lists were merged (circa 2000) that it would be a staple based on paycheck, or equipment. Search my threads, that is what I always thought the expectations were.

My understanding was that the RJDC's objections to jets for jobs is that J4J did not address predatory scope, one list, or the effectiveness of keeping management's promises.

I'm all for fences, but there has to be something given for something gained. If you get one list, you have to accept that there might be a flush.

Future trends suggest the majority of growth will be in the 100 to 130-150 seat range. There would not be much to worry about for you, but none the less a flow down would effect everyone on a single list negatively. More likely, growth would effect everyone positively instead of fighting over where management decides to allocate ASM's.

On the Delta property I do not see how onelist can be achieved - although it remains a worthy goal. There are too many disparate interests and some of the mainline pilots simply don't want it regardless of the logic of onelist from a labor perspective.

Jets for Jobs is not a horrible idea - if done right. Call it brand scope if you want.

To answer your question, understand it is hugely speculative based on events unlikely to happen, but,
I've still got my M&G invite from FedEx, or I would take a LOA, so no, personally based on current information, I would not be looking to ASA.

However, the Delta MEC is spun up for merger and aquisition activity in a way that appears unmatched in the profession right now. As long as the hedge funds have strings to pull, it would be smart for EVERY MEC to do the same.

At the small jet contractors, I do not know how the merger / acquisition function works. ASA did not merge with Comair, or SkyWest. Politically, those in power did not want those mergers despite compelling reasons for labor to get on the same team.

 

[PCL_128]

Excellent post!!! Glad somebody gets it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fins,

I agree that it isn't going to happen now..... too many horses out of the barn.... That window of opportunity has passed..... We are all now in defense mode and protecting our own turf.... We definately aren't working together..... and probably never will...

That being said, I don't agree with your view of a single list.... Essentially the regional pilot gets what he or she already has.... The opportunity to start over again at the bottom of a mainline list, much like you just did.... That opportunity exists today and many people are taking advantage of it....

In exchange for getting what they already have, they give up their seniority rights that they currently enjoy.... Not enough to make it work....

The only thing I would ever accept is a "double staple"..... If I go to the bottom of the MD88 list, then the flushed pilot goes to the bottom of the 700/200/ATR list.....

This is really academic at this point..... The APA wants a single list without the Eagle pilots..... They are looking out for their best interests, and it would behove everyone to take this approach..... Nobody else is looking out for you.... only you can do that.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Actually, I think it's the other way around. Joe's positions are exactly representative of the plaintiffs and the officers of the RJDC (remember, Joe was an RJDC officer at one point). It's your positions that were always too common-sense and reasonable for the real RJDC blowhards. Joe is just showing everyone what the RJDC was really all about: "me, me, me, me, me!!!!!"

OK - admittedly, I can not win this debate, this is not about logic for a lot of folks. But, if you read the RJDC's publications you get their positions.

The RJDC became synonymous with everything from JC Lawson's letter about flight deck safety with a mixed Delta crew to Joe's posts on FlightInfo. Politically this took off like Elvis sightings - a bunch of people believe it. Going forward, it will probably get even more wildly distorted.

Admittedly, I'm less than logical when it comes to the SkyWest / ASA situation - so if some mainline and small jet provider pilots are less than logical - it can be understood. After all, we all worked to reach our positions and no one wants to give up what they worked for. At the same time, our managers and the market rewards those who have less longevity and pay. It is a natural conflict that we as pilots have to overcome by working together.

 

[PCL_128]

But, if you read the RJDC's publications you get their positions.

What someone puts out in a public document isn't always representative of their real opinions and motivations. They were playing a PR game, and openly stating their true hard-line positions would have limited donations to coming only from radicals like Joe.

 

[get2flyin]

\
This is really academic at this point..... The APA wants a single list without the Eagle pilots..... They are looking out for their best interests, and it would behove everyone to take this approach..... Nobody else is looking out for you.... only you can do that.....

It's pretty hard for me to be sympathetic with the AA pilots. Combining the lists to stop whipsawing the AA pilots with the AE pilots has been discussed many times. Unfortunately the AArrogance of the main-line guys could never be overcome.

When AA tried to block Eagle from getting RJs, saying Eagle pilots weren't skilled enough to fly jets, they eventually let it happen when they were offered a financial incentive to let it happen. Nice. Way to sell out.

When Eagle approached AA about a merged list PRE 9/11, AA laughed the "rookies" out the door. When AA approached AE about merging the list AFTER 9/11 APA wanted it to be a staple job with a complete bump and flush of the Eagle pilots to get the AA pilots off the street. That's pretty f-ing arrogant, but I do respect APA's attempt to best represent their pilots. The part that was unpalatable was....after a total bump, when the economy turned around, they wanted to be able to hire pilots off the street "AHEAD OF THE EAGLE PILOTS" on the list because they said it wasn't fair to their old squadron buddies to have to start at AA on a SAAB. WAAAAAAH! I'm sorry, but APA doesn't represent pilots that don't work for the company, even if they were in the squadron together.

They had a lot of chances to control all the flying, but greed got the best of them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

The APA wants a single list without the Eagle pilots..... They are looking out for their best interests, and it would behove everyone to take this approach..... Nobody else is looking out for you.... only you can do that.....

OK, agreed, law of the jungle is effective and practiced in most jurisdictions. But, wasn't that what the RJDC was trying to fix?

>Law of the Jungle = small jet pilots have no rights
>ALPA M&F policy = very high probability of staple with ineffective and uneven application on the policy
>RJDC preferred = fair and enforced application of the policies on the books, with an independent judiciary to review. Very high probability of staple with protections and fences.

While I understand the differences, I do not know why you would support the "everyone looks out for themselves" when you consider the outcome of a Delta v/s anyone else battle.

Economically the Delta MEC might not want to take back the Delta brand flying, but if they decided to make this a priority, I would not put any faith in SAPA to protect me & Jerry will do whatever makes him money - he does not care who flies the airplanes and said so when I heard him talk.

 

[~~~^~~~]

What someone puts out in a public document isn't always representative of their real opinions and motivations. They were playing a PR game, and openly stating their true hard-line positions would have limited donations to coming only from radicals

...and I heard E L V I S was out Christmas Shopping at Lenox.

Nah, WYSIWYG with Dan Ford.

The RJDC attracted ALPA's enemies - but if was not ever an anti-ALPA movement. The RJDC easily could have lead an effective decertification drive - they did not. They could have first, or third, partied the Delta MEC, or Delta, into the litigation - they did not. Not only look at their words, but also their actions.

At times, I thought Dan Ford should have got involved in political issues - he kept out of all of that stuff and remained focused on the representational issue.

Representation is not sexy, but that is all the RJDC was about. IMHO the narrow focus both helped and hurt the RJDC cause. Obviously the RJDC's lack of involvement in daily politics resulted in a total political failure within ALPA which was needed to get their agenda moving forward (as you often pointed out). However, it also kept the RJDC out of entangling political alliances and sometimes the political game can be unpredictable.

Dan Ford was very conservative given his level of grassroots activism.

 

[regionaltard]

...the people that control the code that you fly: the mainline pilots.

That just cracks me up every time I see it. Would someone please refresh my memory as to why the US pilots had to underbid "regional" carriers in order to capture the 190 flying that they already owned?

 

[PCL_128]

Not only look at their words, but also their actions.

That's the whole problem. I did look at his actions. I saw a lawsuit that that would have bankrupted the Association. There was no legitimate reason whatsoever to include billion-dollar monetary damages in a lawsuit if the goal was truly about representation. I also saw his fellow RJDC officers talking publicly in ways that clearly indicated that their goal was other than honorable. Not sure if you've ever spent time on the national webboards, but I still remember years ago when John B. was an RJDC officer going on the national web boards and ranting and raving all kinds of anti-mainline and anti-ALPA garbage. Dan Ford frequented those boards, and he had every opportunity to disavow John's comments, but he never did.

At times, I thought Dan Ford should have got involved in political issues - he kept out of all of that stuff and remained focused on the representational issue.

That's because he was incapable of effective political action. He had absolutely zero political acumen. I disagree with a lot of what JC Lawson has said over the years, especially about this subject, but at least JC was intelligent enough to use the political process rather than a lawsuit that pissed everyone off.

 

[~~~^~~~]

PCL - Lawson's action in reply to the Delta pilots' legitimate request to open Comair to furloghees was one of the worst political moves I've ever seen and harmed the pilots he represented. He had his reasons, but safety sure wasn't one of them. I flew with several of the Delta pilots and to a man, they were all excellent pilots and had great attitudes.

ALPA's senior leadership understands the legitimate need to litigate some issues to get messy political matters defined and clarified. I personally thought ALPA would see their mistake and fix it - instead the litigation itself became the political issue du jour.

Let me jump to today's issue du jour - does anyone know if Eagle's scope requires that they be the sole provider, or is the spin off intended to open up a DCI like bazar of lowest bidding for flying?

If so, this move by the APA might just be defensive. Wonder if the spin off announcement created concern that the APA might have to bid for flying which ostensibly was "theirs" when they had the F Jets.

Jet fuel prices are increasing the pressure to consider that replaces the JT8D powered aircraft in several fleets....

CompEagle, Eagleass, anyone?