All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[CRJ200FO]

ALPA was necessary back in the day. And they are still necessay today in many ways. But things have changed. It's not the 1970's and 80's anymore. However, ALPA is continuing to squeeze management further and further...eventually something has to break. Wait and see. Eventually when the Airlines go broke, for what ever reasons, things will change. Eventually, the company will no longer be able to afford to pay you, even if the problem is due to something else.

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

You don't work for the airline, you work for the passengers. And the passengers have said they are not willing to pay the same amount they used to for you to fly them from point A to point B. Is that managements fault? No, it's the way the economy works. UAL could barely afford to pay the raises they HAD to give in to a few years ago, and that is when times were good! And now they definately can't afford them.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

 

[CRJ200FO]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

You can be a smart*ss all you want, but look at the facts. USAir is in chapter 11 with liquidation a possibility if things don't get better real quick, UAL is talking about a possible bankruptcy early next year, and AMR has begun talks with bankruptcy lawyers. NWA, DAL, and CAL are doing just slightly better, but they are still losing hundreds of millions of dollars quarterly. Obviously things are not good, and labor costs cannot account for the amounts of money being lost every month at these airlines. As I said, if U pilots agreed to work for FREE, U would still be in financial trouble. LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM! Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

 

[tdvalve]

"crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade."

Have to agree with your observation, jon210. Actually, we're seeing the free market working very well. The efficient carriers are prospering and the dinosaurs are sinking in the tarpit. The more scope clauses and antiquated work rules are employed, the more definite a grim fate for the big five.

 

[JetPilot500]

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

I bet to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

Oh geez, here we go with recommending regulation again. No people will not be willing to pay $500 for a ticket! In the last 9 months the airlines have been trying to squeeze up ticket prices. Everytime they do, its an average increase of $10 to $20. And everytime they do this, people stop buying tickets. So a jump from $99 to $500 is definately not gonna work overnight. It's a function of supply and demand. As price goes up, demand goes down. Restrict the supply, prices go up to, but you'll sell fewer tickets. Sell fewer tickets and less planes in the air.

For many people, travel is discressionary. If its too expensive, they just won't go. Even in these tough times, businesses are finding other ways of getting the job done if ticket prices are out of reach.

Look back to regulation. There were a lot few airline flights. Because ticket prices were fixed and not everyone could afford to fly. Flying was a luxury, most people were taking road trips to a summer cottage for vacation, not Jetting off to see Mickey Mouse. Flying has become something anyone could do. Bring back Regulation and forget about your RJ job. In fact, forget about probally half of the flying jobs out there. Capitalism is key in this country.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

.....Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
I would agree that labor is not at fault. I am sure the airlines that are doing very poorly have many different problems. This is the reason we should let the market decide who survives and not the govt. The ones that provide the best, safest service, at the best prices and remain profitable will survive. If a company can't make a profit we won't have to worry about how much we get paid for very long.

 

[JetPilot500]

LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM!

Labor is not the only problem.

But if UAL, for example, could cut an average of $50k per pilot per year, that would equate to $500 Million (10,000 pilots) saved per year...make some cuts with other labor groups and guess what, now you're really saving some money.

$500 Million is no chump change!

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

JetPilot500

 

[banned username 2]

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

And a First Year Pilot currently making $35,000 will have to Pay $15,000 for his job after the change! It is just like Pay-For-Training but different!

DOH! Did I just say that out loud?!?!?!

(The above was intended as a joke, and in NO way intended to trigger yet another PFT debate... So before you start b!tching and moaning, sit back, laugh and walk away from your computer...)

 

[CRJ200FO]

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

Not true. The LCC's are able to get through these hard economic times only because of their low labor costs. When SWA has to start paying thousands of employees their retirements here in few years, then they will eventually have to raise ticket prices in order to cover the cost. They don't have enough money stashed away to cover the retirement costs of all these employees. They will be in the same situation as the real majors are today.

When that happens, Spirit, AirTran, and the other LCC's that don't have as many retirement to pay off yet will be able to keep their prices low and SWA will begin to lose business. Granted, this is years down the road, but it will happen. As I said, it's a vicious cycle that regulation protected us from.