All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[CRJ200FO]

ALPA was necessary back in the day. And they are still necessay today in many ways. But things have changed. It's not the 1970's and 80's anymore. However, ALPA is continuing to squeeze management further and further...eventually something has to break. Wait and see. Eventually when the Airlines go broke, for what ever reasons, things will change. Eventually, the company will no longer be able to afford to pay you, even if the problem is due to something else.

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

You don't work for the airline, you work for the passengers. And the passengers have said they are not willing to pay the same amount they used to for you to fly them from point A to point B. Is that managements fault? No, it's the way the economy works. UAL could barely afford to pay the raises they HAD to give in to a few years ago, and that is when times were good! And now they definately can't afford them.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

 

[CRJ200FO]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

You can be a smart*ss all you want, but look at the facts. USAir is in chapter 11 with liquidation a possibility if things don't get better real quick, UAL is talking about a possible bankruptcy early next year, and AMR has begun talks with bankruptcy lawyers. NWA, DAL, and CAL are doing just slightly better, but they are still losing hundreds of millions of dollars quarterly. Obviously things are not good, and labor costs cannot account for the amounts of money being lost every month at these airlines. As I said, if U pilots agreed to work for FREE, U would still be in financial trouble. LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM! Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

 

[tdvalve]

"crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade."

Have to agree with your observation, jon210. Actually, we're seeing the free market working very well. The efficient carriers are prospering and the dinosaurs are sinking in the tarpit. The more scope clauses and antiquated work rules are employed, the more definite a grim fate for the big five.

 

[JetPilot500]

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

I bet to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

Oh geez, here we go with recommending regulation again. No people will not be willing to pay $500 for a ticket! In the last 9 months the airlines have been trying to squeeze up ticket prices. Everytime they do, its an average increase of $10 to $20. And everytime they do this, people stop buying tickets. So a jump from $99 to $500 is definately not gonna work overnight. It's a function of supply and demand. As price goes up, demand goes down. Restrict the supply, prices go up to, but you'll sell fewer tickets. Sell fewer tickets and less planes in the air.

For many people, travel is discressionary. If its too expensive, they just won't go. Even in these tough times, businesses are finding other ways of getting the job done if ticket prices are out of reach.

Look back to regulation. There were a lot few airline flights. Because ticket prices were fixed and not everyone could afford to fly. Flying was a luxury, most people were taking road trips to a summer cottage for vacation, not Jetting off to see Mickey Mouse. Flying has become something anyone could do. Bring back Regulation and forget about your RJ job. In fact, forget about probally half of the flying jobs out there. Capitalism is key in this country.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

.....Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
I would agree that labor is not at fault. I am sure the airlines that are doing very poorly have many different problems. This is the reason we should let the market decide who survives and not the govt. The ones that provide the best, safest service, at the best prices and remain profitable will survive. If a company can't make a profit we won't have to worry about how much we get paid for very long.

 

[JetPilot500]

LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM!

Labor is not the only problem.

But if UAL, for example, could cut an average of $50k per pilot per year, that would equate to $500 Million (10,000 pilots) saved per year...make some cuts with other labor groups and guess what, now you're really saving some money.

$500 Million is no chump change!

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

JetPilot500

 

[banned username 2]

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

And a First Year Pilot currently making $35,000 will have to Pay $15,000 for his job after the change! It is just like Pay-For-Training but different!

DOH! Did I just say that out loud?!?!?!

(The above was intended as a joke, and in NO way intended to trigger yet another PFT debate... So before you start b!tching and moaning, sit back, laugh and walk away from your computer...)

 

[CRJ200FO]

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

Not true. The LCC's are able to get through these hard economic times only because of their low labor costs. When SWA has to start paying thousands of employees their retirements here in few years, then they will eventually have to raise ticket prices in order to cover the cost. They don't have enough money stashed away to cover the retirement costs of all these employees. They will be in the same situation as the real majors are today.

When that happens, Spirit, AirTran, and the other LCC's that don't have as many retirement to pay off yet will be able to keep their prices low and SWA will begin to lose business. Granted, this is years down the road, but it will happen. As I said, it's a vicious cycle that regulation protected us from.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Labor is not the only problem.

But if UAL, for example, could cut an average of $50k per pilot per year, that would equate to $500 Million (10,000 pilots) saved per year...make some cuts with other labor groups and guess what, now you're really saving some money.

$500 Million is no chump change!

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

JetPilot500

Would you listen to yourself for a moment? You are saying that losing $35,000 is no "BIG DEALl" How would you like it if your employer told you that he was going to give you a 25% pay cut because profits had dropped and he didn't want to reduce his own salary or go about the trouble of re-thinking his business model that is so obviously flawed? That's what we're talking about here! Pilot's salaries did not cause these problems, so why should they be cut to solve the problems? The root cause of the problem needs to be addressed. You admit in your post that labor is not the cause of the problem, but you want them to give up their hard earned money to fix it. There is no logic in that.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
I thought you just said a couple of posts earlier that labor costs were not the problem. Now you are saying that the LCC's are surviving because of low labor costs and it will catch up with them when they have to start paying for retirements. I hope the LCC's are not thinking the same thing, it won't be long before no one has a retirement plan.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Just as labor costs are not the real problem with the major's, labor costs are also not the only reason SWA and other LCC's are doing well.

There is always more to look at in the picture. The LCC's do not face the same expenses as UAL, DAL, NWA, and so on.

However, these major carriers could most likely turn a profit if many changes were made, starting with management, ten labor cost reduction and so on.

Like Jetpilot pointed out, a lot of money could be saved by a reduction in pilot salaries, it would only be fair then to also impose a reduction in Mngt. Salaries...then that much more could be saved.

I would agree that pilot salaries could be reduced to help the problem if the other changes were also implimented. But mgmt never does that. They say that they want the concessions now, and they'll worry about everything else later.

Example: In the early '80s EAL was losing money like crazy. Mgmt went to labor time after time for concessions and promised that they would later impliment other cost saving ideas. But guess what? Frank Boreman never did any of the other things. And when the first few pay cuts for the pilots and mechanics didn't solve the problem (because they never do), then he came back for more concessions. This is where the BOHICA pins and stickers that the pilots had came from: "Bend Over, Here It Comes Again."

Mgmt is never willing to do anything other than cut pay to solve problems. And they never take pay cuts themselves, it's always the pilots, FA's, and mechanics that get screwed. Need another example?

Mesaba Aviation: 50 pilots were recently furloughed. Did mgmt take a pay cut? Of course not. Mgmt decided to buy Big Sky airlines and give their CEO a $1.6 million dollar bonus for the year. Why doesn't mgmt have to take cuts when we do?

I think it's time you learn from history. Concessions have never helped save an airline from bankruptcy and they never will. It's going to take a lot more than that.

 

[banned username 2]

Example: In the early '80s EAL was losing money like crazy. Mgmt went to labor time after time for concessions and promised that they would later impliment other cost saving ideas.

You were born in 1982, and you remember this??? HHmmm..

But guess what? Frank Boreman never did any of the other things.

No YOU guess what... Frank Borman was an Astronaut (Commander of Apollo 8), not the CEO of EAL when it failed... I THINK you mean your buddy Frank Lorenzo who drove it into the ground!

 

[CRJ200FO]

You were born in 1982, and you remember this??? HHmmm..






No YOU guess what... Frank Borman was an Astronaut (Commander of Apollo 8), not the CEO of EAL... I THINK you mean your buddy Frank Lorenzo!

Better stick to what you know...

A wise man once said: "Better to be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt..."

Words to live by!

You have just displayed your own ignorance very well. Frank Borman was Commander of Apollo 8 AND he later became CEO of EAL. I believe he took this position in the mid 70's. He sold it to Frank LORENZO (in 1983 I believe) because the unions refused to give him yet more concessions and he saw his airline beginning to fail. Frank Lorenzo later drove EAL into the ground, but Borman started the whole mess with his p*ss-poor mgmt techniques. Look it up. There are many books on the subject.

And a little tip: the next time you call somebody a fool, you better check the facts a little better first, lest you make yourself look more the fool.

 

[banned username 2]

Lorenzo was the one who drove it into the ground... and parted it out....

 

[DCitrus9]

jetpilot"I bet to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

Your "guess" is way off. A study published showed the actual buying power of airline pilots had decreased over the last 30 years. It compared several occupations and the salary trend. I will try to find the article and post it, or maybe someone else has a copy...

 

[JetPilot500]

I beg to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

Your "guess" is way off. A study published showed the actual buying power of airline pilots had decreased over the last 30 years. It compared several occupations and the salary trend. I will try to find the article and post it, or maybe someone else has a copy...

Not to start a flame war with you DCitrus9, but I'll bet the source of your study came from ALPA or Kit Darby or some souce like that. Here is the Math:

$85,000 + 3.0% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $206,000
$85,000 + 4.5% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $320,000

So to get from 30 Years ago to today, the top end major airline payscales have increased 4.5% per year annually. This is far higher than the average working man. Don't beleive me here is the math:

$20,000 + 3.0% Annual Inflation over 30 yrs = $48,500

The average working man in 1972 was making around $20,000 per year. Now he's getting around $45-50,000. There is your 3% annual inflation.

Besides, everyones buying power is going down. Increased taxes, heath and insurance cost are hurting everyone.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

Would you listen to yourself for a moment?

How about you listen to yourself for a moment. You say that SWA is only successful due to low labor costs. Then you say that high labor costs are not an issue at the Big Airlines? What's it gonna be.

The point is this: If the comany can find a way to save $500M here and $500M there and another $500M over there, it all adds up to at least break-even in hard times and maybe even profitability. You are very right in saying that labor is not the only problem.

If you think that the airlines are not finding other ways to save money then you are blind.

I'll say it again, retirement fund money and 401k money do not come out of the same pot as daily operating money. Those funds are separate. Therefore it doesn't matter if 1 guy retires or 1000 guys retire.

I really think you need to put your book, "Flying the Line" down for a while. Those books are one sided and tell about a different time. Get with the times and think a little for yourself.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

I really think you need to put your book, "Flying the Line" down for a while. Those books are one sided and tell about a different time. Get with the times and think a little for yourself.

JetPilot500

Actually, Flying the Line was written from an objective viewpoint. It is not one-sided. ALPA did not write the books, they just made themselves available for interviews. The books were written by an independent author/professor.

And as for the numbers you gave for pilot's salaries from 30 years ago. Citrus was not referring to the inflation being wrong. He was referring to your belief that a 747 CA was only making 85,000 dollars. That figure is very questionable.