All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[goldentrout]

Amen to prodigal who says:

"No union in the world will overcome market forces for long. The market will shape the industry, not the other way around. This is so basic it amazes me how few people grasp the concept. Go out and run your own business for a few years and then let me know what you think. Bad economy=low/no profits=businesses cut costs=job losses. Even our illustrious profession is not immune from these basic laws."

It's just as simple as this.

Today I went to Target. There were cases of 24 bottled waters.
One of the more well known bottled water company's with a big name had a case for $5.99. Some new water company had a case of water for $4.59. I bought the last case of new company water at $4.59.

The shelves were still full of well known's cases of bottled water at $5.99.

As long as SWA is providing safe, reliable transportation (and Jet Blue, and Frontier, and AirTran for that matter), people will pick those airlines most of the time because for most people, price is the most important factor when buying airline tickets.

Sure, some (not many) will pay 10-20% more for the service at UAL/DAL/NWA/AMR, but as the market is pointing out...not enough to make that a viable business model.

Just as with the bottled water at Target, basic economic principle will apply to the airlines too...the consumer will pay the lowest price available for the product that meets his/her needs.

I don't mean to be condescending, but it's just such basic market capitalism...I don't understand why more of us who are obviously educated, intelligent people don't get it.

If I'm the MEC at DAL/UAL/NWA, I'm looking at the 70-90 seat RJs and thinking "we need those on our property...cause that's the way of the future...let's get them...negotiate some decent pay rates...and get our guys their jobs back...and some growth too!"

Instead (and you can read it on the ALPA website), Duane's strategy is to get SWA into ALPA...thinking then ALPA will negotiate some huge pay and benefit raise for those guys...which will force SWA to raise ticket prices.

I like the market based strategy best...because history has proven time and again...whether it's steel...or cars...or shoes...or whatever...the business which provides the desired product at the lowest price will win the game.

 

[TurboS7]

CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too.

 

[ShawnC]

Sure the pay is higher at UAL and other airlines, but that doesn't help much when your unemployed because the airline can't afford to pay you.

 

[dualrated]

No union in the world will overcome market forces for long

That's the point of this thread. The passage of S.1347 will eliminate any market forces. Your pay will be subject to strict, binding federal statutes. Don't you find it ironic that two republicans are introducing legislation to further regulate an industry? This is more regulation, more federal control and manipulation of the free market!

 

[CRJ200FO]

The beginning of the end is comming for SWA.

We can only hope.

 

[abxaviator]

CRJ200,
You said you don't know of a time when DAL ALPA has made concessions. You have only to look at their previous contract to find it. After they signed the concessionary contract, DAL mgmt. gave all the other employees raises. Alpa , I believe sued or at least tried to renegotiate to no avail. They made large concessions and fought hard to get the UAL+ contract they now have.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone45075

Sir

I really think you need to rethink your comment about SWA being a startup. When you make comments like that, it hurts your credibility.

1. SWA has been in business for 30 yrs...and made a profit every year.
2. They have 370 aircraft, 35,000 employees, 2,800 flights/day.
3. They are a fortune 500 company.
4. From the SWA webpage "Southwest Airlines has been named a charter member of the International Airline Passengers Association's Honor Roll of Airlines among the World's Safest Airlines. Southwest also has been recognized as one of the world's safest airlines by Conde Nast Traveler. "
5. Also from the webpage "FORTUNE has consistently recognized Southwest Airlines in its annual survey of corporate reputations. Among airlines, Southwest came out on top as the most admired airline in the world for 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000. Among all industries, FORTUNE has listed Southwest as one of the most admired companies in the world, year after year.
Since 1997, FORTUNE has ranked Southwest Airlines in the top five of the Best Companies to Work For in America. Southwest ranked first in 1997 and 1998, second in 1999, and fourth in 2000. Southwest chose not to participate in 2001. "

For those of you who think SWA is a "startup" that will be going by the wayside here shortly...I'd think again.

CRJ200

What's this about concessions not doing anygood?

Maybe UAL guys can correct me on when exactly they took a concessionary contract, but...

1. 1994-- All UAL unions took a concessionary contract...and UAL made money until 2000 when...
2. UAL pilots got their contract in Oct 2000. UAL lost 124,000,000 in the 4th quarter of 2000, and has been losing money ever since.

Now pilot wages are not the industry's only problems...but when employee wages are 38% of airline overhead...there's no doubt that the pilots, mechanics, and FAs all together have a big effect on airline profitability.

Things have changed since the days of Lorenzo...low cost carriers and RJs have (and will) totally revolution the industry. ALPA can either be proactive and figure how to take advantage of these inevitable changes, or ALPA will become less and less of a force in wage and benefit issues. We cannot legislate jobs for ourselves in Congress, because market forces will always be the driving force in the airline industry.

As we used to say in the military...lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

[goldentrout]

FYI

If you want to go from Las Vegas to Albany, NY next week, SWA will do it for about $300...and that's a totally refundable, change it anytime fare.

CAL will do it for about $525...of course that's a totally non-refundable ticket.

All the others want $600 or more...all non-refundable tickets.

It's just so simple...SWA offers the required product at the most reasonable price, ergo the consumer picks their product over similar, higher priced products from their competitors.

Those who think that somehow ALPA or the other airline managers are going to get SWA to give up their competitive edge and start charging higher prices are living in a fantasy world.

Why would SWA give up the competive edge of a business model that has given them 30 years of straight profitability, and made them a Fortune 500 company?????????????????

If this is ALPA's strategy (and it is), we're all in big trouble.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Turbo S7wrote:
"CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too."

What is your problem? Wasn't stabbing in the back your fellow EAL pilots enough? You're selfish actions and thoughts are examples of what is destroying our profession. Once a SCAB always a SCAB. It is better to just ignore you but I couldn't resist this time.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone

You must be quite the gambler...since you're betting on the stupidity of many people.

1. The management at SWA has found a way to make money during the every econominc crisis in the last 30 years, while the rest of theindustry lost billions. SWA management would be incredibly stupid to agree to wage and benefits contracts that are not sustainable by revenue, and would wipe out their competitive procing edge.

2. The employees would be incredibly stupid to demand wages and benefits comparable to UAL/DAL. Much of the retirement of SWA employees is tied up in the ESOP stock plan. Additionally, they get a profit share, which was over $20,000 for a top Capt in 1999. No profits = no profit share.

However...I guess I must admit that employee greed and management incompetence has gotten the airlines where they are today...I just think the people at SWA have proven themselves to be smarter than that.


Also...what's makes you think that if SWA started charging DAL prices, there wouldn't be a SWA II. There's obviously a huge market for the SWA business model.