All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[goldentrout]

Amen to prodigal who says:

"No union in the world will overcome market forces for long. The market will shape the industry, not the other way around. This is so basic it amazes me how few people grasp the concept. Go out and run your own business for a few years and then let me know what you think. Bad economy=low/no profits=businesses cut costs=job losses. Even our illustrious profession is not immune from these basic laws."

It's just as simple as this.

Today I went to Target. There were cases of 24 bottled waters.
One of the more well known bottled water company's with a big name had a case for $5.99. Some new water company had a case of water for $4.59. I bought the last case of new company water at $4.59.

The shelves were still full of well known's cases of bottled water at $5.99.

As long as SWA is providing safe, reliable transportation (and Jet Blue, and Frontier, and AirTran for that matter), people will pick those airlines most of the time because for most people, price is the most important factor when buying airline tickets.

Sure, some (not many) will pay 10-20% more for the service at UAL/DAL/NWA/AMR, but as the market is pointing out...not enough to make that a viable business model.

Just as with the bottled water at Target, basic economic principle will apply to the airlines too...the consumer will pay the lowest price available for the product that meets his/her needs.

I don't mean to be condescending, but it's just such basic market capitalism...I don't understand why more of us who are obviously educated, intelligent people don't get it.

If I'm the MEC at DAL/UAL/NWA, I'm looking at the 70-90 seat RJs and thinking "we need those on our property...cause that's the way of the future...let's get them...negotiate some decent pay rates...and get our guys their jobs back...and some growth too!"

Instead (and you can read it on the ALPA website), Duane's strategy is to get SWA into ALPA...thinking then ALPA will negotiate some huge pay and benefit raise for those guys...which will force SWA to raise ticket prices.

I like the market based strategy best...because history has proven time and again...whether it's steel...or cars...or shoes...or whatever...the business which provides the desired product at the lowest price will win the game.

 

[TurboS7]

CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too.

 

[ShawnC]

Sure the pay is higher at UAL and other airlines, but that doesn't help much when your unemployed because the airline can't afford to pay you.

 

[dualrated]

No union in the world will overcome market forces for long

That's the point of this thread. The passage of S.1347 will eliminate any market forces. Your pay will be subject to strict, binding federal statutes. Don't you find it ironic that two republicans are introducing legislation to further regulate an industry? This is more regulation, more federal control and manipulation of the free market!

 

[CRJ200FO]

The beginning of the end is comming for SWA.

We can only hope.

 

[abxaviator]

CRJ200,
You said you don't know of a time when DAL ALPA has made concessions. You have only to look at their previous contract to find it. After they signed the concessionary contract, DAL mgmt. gave all the other employees raises. Alpa , I believe sued or at least tried to renegotiate to no avail. They made large concessions and fought hard to get the UAL+ contract they now have.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone45075

Sir

I really think you need to rethink your comment about SWA being a startup. When you make comments like that, it hurts your credibility.

1. SWA has been in business for 30 yrs...and made a profit every year.
2. They have 370 aircraft, 35,000 employees, 2,800 flights/day.
3. They are a fortune 500 company.
4. From the SWA webpage "Southwest Airlines has been named a charter member of the International Airline Passengers Association's Honor Roll of Airlines among the World's Safest Airlines. Southwest also has been recognized as one of the world's safest airlines by Conde Nast Traveler. "
5. Also from the webpage "FORTUNE has consistently recognized Southwest Airlines in its annual survey of corporate reputations. Among airlines, Southwest came out on top as the most admired airline in the world for 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000. Among all industries, FORTUNE has listed Southwest as one of the most admired companies in the world, year after year.
Since 1997, FORTUNE has ranked Southwest Airlines in the top five of the Best Companies to Work For in America. Southwest ranked first in 1997 and 1998, second in 1999, and fourth in 2000. Southwest chose not to participate in 2001. "

For those of you who think SWA is a "startup" that will be going by the wayside here shortly...I'd think again.

CRJ200

What's this about concessions not doing anygood?

Maybe UAL guys can correct me on when exactly they took a concessionary contract, but...

1. 1994-- All UAL unions took a concessionary contract...and UAL made money until 2000 when...
2. UAL pilots got their contract in Oct 2000. UAL lost 124,000,000 in the 4th quarter of 2000, and has been losing money ever since.

Now pilot wages are not the industry's only problems...but when employee wages are 38% of airline overhead...there's no doubt that the pilots, mechanics, and FAs all together have a big effect on airline profitability.

Things have changed since the days of Lorenzo...low cost carriers and RJs have (and will) totally revolution the industry. ALPA can either be proactive and figure how to take advantage of these inevitable changes, or ALPA will become less and less of a force in wage and benefit issues. We cannot legislate jobs for ourselves in Congress, because market forces will always be the driving force in the airline industry.

As we used to say in the military...lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

[goldentrout]

FYI

If you want to go from Las Vegas to Albany, NY next week, SWA will do it for about $300...and that's a totally refundable, change it anytime fare.

CAL will do it for about $525...of course that's a totally non-refundable ticket.

All the others want $600 or more...all non-refundable tickets.

It's just so simple...SWA offers the required product at the most reasonable price, ergo the consumer picks their product over similar, higher priced products from their competitors.

Those who think that somehow ALPA or the other airline managers are going to get SWA to give up their competitive edge and start charging higher prices are living in a fantasy world.

Why would SWA give up the competive edge of a business model that has given them 30 years of straight profitability, and made them a Fortune 500 company?????????????????

If this is ALPA's strategy (and it is), we're all in big trouble.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Turbo S7wrote:
"CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too."

What is your problem? Wasn't stabbing in the back your fellow EAL pilots enough? You're selfish actions and thoughts are examples of what is destroying our profession. Once a SCAB always a SCAB. It is better to just ignore you but I couldn't resist this time.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone

You must be quite the gambler...since you're betting on the stupidity of many people.

1. The management at SWA has found a way to make money during the every econominc crisis in the last 30 years, while the rest of theindustry lost billions. SWA management would be incredibly stupid to agree to wage and benefits contracts that are not sustainable by revenue, and would wipe out their competitive procing edge.

2. The employees would be incredibly stupid to demand wages and benefits comparable to UAL/DAL. Much of the retirement of SWA employees is tied up in the ESOP stock plan. Additionally, they get a profit share, which was over $20,000 for a top Capt in 1999. No profits = no profit share.

However...I guess I must admit that employee greed and management incompetence has gotten the airlines where they are today...I just think the people at SWA have proven themselves to be smarter than that.


Also...what's makes you think that if SWA started charging DAL prices, there wouldn't be a SWA II. There's obviously a huge market for the SWA business model.

 

[JetPilot500]

C'mon people...

Did anyone put a gun to your head and force you to accept the jobs you have?

Supply and Demand. Supply of pilots is high, and demand for them is low. Basic economics here.

If the wage and work rules are so bad at some of these places, why is it people are standing in line for these jobs?

Anyone who calls SWA a crappy company is a disillusioned fool! SWA is probally THE most successful airline in history! And, I don't hear many of their employees complaining about their jobs. SWA has found the perfect mix of affordable salaries and product pricing to make them successful. UAL and other majors are failing products.

Also, lets clear up something else. When SWA pilots start retiring in larger numbers, their costs will not suddenly increase. There are pensions funds already established to cover these costs. Pension payments do not come from daily operating costs.

CEO's and management have the task of providing a profit to their investors, not to make pilots millionairs. If CEO's operate an unsafe operation, eventually people will stop flying that airline and they will become un-profitable. Therefore, if the unions went away tomorrow, things would not suddenly become unsafe. If the unions went away tomorrow, Delta 737 Captains would not be making $50k/yr.

ALPA is all about ALPA, not you! The pilots are all about themselves and not their brothers and sisters. The guy at the top would rather keep making his $300k per year and see the company furlough 1000 pilots to protect his pay. Where is the brotherhood in that?

CRJ200FO and others like you, if you don't like what SWA has to offer, then don't apply there. Be done with it, it is that simple. And if everyone feels that way, then their Supply of pilot resumes will be reduced. If that happens, then they will be forced to pay more or give more time off or whatever. That IS Supply and Demand. That also applies to any other airline or job out there. If you don't like what they have to offer don't accept a job there.

JetPilot500
Former ALPA Member

 

[CRJ200FO]

CRJ200FO and others like you, if you don't like what SWA has to offer, then don't apply there. Be done with it, it is that simple. And if everyone feels that way, then their Supply of pilot resumes will be reduced. If that happens, then they will be forced to pay more or give more time off or whatever. That IS Supply and Demand. That also applies to any other airline or job out there. If you don't like what they have to offer don't accept a job there.

Don't worry, I won't ever being applying to SWA. I won't sink to that level. I'd rather sit right seat on CRJ for the rest of my career.

The problem is that there are many pilots willing to go there and they are driving the salaries in the rest of the industry down. How can the pilots at Airtran for example ask for more money when mgmt can just say "Well, the pilots at SWA are willing to do it for lower. Why should I pay you more?"

It's time that you face the facts that what happens at another airline affects things at the airline you work. If Bigsky pilots are willing to work for $10 an hour then why would PCL be willing to pay me $30? It's another case of pilots f*cking pilots. When you accept lower pay at your airline it drives pay down at mine. If you allowed market forces to determine pilot salaries then a 747 CA would be making $30,000 a year. Don't fool yourself into thinking that mgmt would pay more out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't have any.

 

[AlphEcho]

Nobody owes you a job.

Umm, ya think? Beech1900D, that is exactly right, and it is kind of my point. Nobody owes you a job, or the right to industry-leading contracts, although that would be great and I hope you get there some day.
However, I am troubled that you think that because I hope the union uses common sense I have "so much animosity for ALPA." Quite the contrary. For example, it would seem to me that the contract extension negotiated with NWA over the summer was an example of good common sense by both parties, considering the times.
I was more speaking to CRJ200 about the situations brought on by the contracts at UAL and USair. They might have been industry-leading for a while, but because of a variety of factors, not just because of their great contracts, their respective companies are leading the industry in concessions. Maybe that's the way to play it though? That's what it seems you are advocating, anyway: Get as much as you can out of the company now, because that next industry downturn is right around the corner. You might be right, although it seems like a strange way to go about it. I'm new at this.
Thanks for the discussion, I'm learning a lot.

 

[prodigal]

dualrated

. . . you still don't get it. S1347 will NOT eliminate all market forces. It may attempt to manage the market in some ways but, again, will not control the market. The old Soviet Union tried to manage it's economy/market in detail. Dismal failure. Can't be done. The market will ultimately prevail.

CRJ200FO, chill out and get some more life experience.

JetPilot500 is right on.

 

[JetPilot500]

Don't fool yourself into thinking that mgmt would pay more out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't have any.

You are correct, they won't be paying more money out of the goodness of their hearts.

I work at a Non-Union company now. We are not paying our Captains $30k per year. In fact, many of our pilots are making over $100K per year. The pay has continued to go up through-out the years to retain good employees and attract more good people, not because of a union.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: dualrated

. . . you still don't get it. S1347 will NOT eliminate all market forces. It may attempt to manage the market in some ways but, again, will not control the market. The old Soviet Union tried to manage it's economy/market in detail. Dismal failure. Can't be done. The market will ultimately prevail.

CRJ200FO, chill out and get some more life experience.

JetPilot500 is right on.

Actually the industry was run pretty well under regulation until 1978. When the airlines were deregulated that's when all the problems really started. Read Flying The Line Vol. II. It has all the details. A free market really doesn't work too well for this industry. The national transportation system is one of the few things that need more gov't control.

Chill out and "get some more life experience" huh? I'll get right on that. In the mean time airline mgmt, Senators McCain and Lott, and the RJDC can destroy the industry I depend on for my livelihood. But I guess I should just chill out, right?

 

[Clownpilot]

Wake up

C'mon people...


>>If the wage and work rules are so bad at some of these places, why is it people are standing in line for these jobs? >>

People take low paying jobs to gain experience necessary to obtain the high paying jobs. They don't want the low paying job, they want the experience that will move them up to the Major job. Remove the the pot at the end of the rainbow and you remove the incentive for quality people to pursue that careeer.

>>Also, lets clear up something else. When SWA pilots start retiring in larger numbers, their costs will not suddenly increase. There are pensions funds already established to cover these costs. Pension payments do not come from daily operating costs.>>

I think YOU are the only one who had to have that one explained.

>>CEO's and management have the task of providing a profit to their investors, not to make pilots millionairs. If CEO's operate an unsafe operation, eventually people will stop flying that airline and they will become un-profitable. Therefore, if the unions went away tomorrow, things would not suddenly become unsafe. If the unions went away tomorrow, Delta 737 Captains would not be making $50k/yr.>>

Kindergarten economics and flawed reasoning. Unions exist to protect their workers in the event of a strike (self help) and obviously to protect them from the wrath of management. The airline business is cyclical; it is not supply and demand. If it were an airline pilot would be paid $200,000 during the up times and $20,000 during the down times. When those down times come there must be a way to keep the airlines from reducing wages or raiding work rules, pension plans, etc. You seem to believe an overage of qualified pilots, while a high supply/low demand scenario, would not result in an erosion of the wage scale. How many pilots capable of handling the job safely currently exist on the street? Thousands are currently furloughed from the Major Airlines. Almost all could operate an aircraft with complete safety. To put food on the table how many would work for half wages....... $100,000 vs $200,000??? Once that happened how many would then work for $50,000........vs $100,000?? We'd have an entire industry full of scabs

>>ALPA is all about ALPA, not you! The pilots are all about themselves and not their brothers and sisters. The guy at the top would rather keep making his $300k per year and see the company furlough 1000 pilots to protect his pay. Where is the brotherhood in that?>>

How far would you let the erosion go? To the point where the job didn't pay enough for any quality individuals to pursue it? Once you started where would you draw the line?

>>CRJ200FO and others like you, if you don't like what SWA has to offer, then don't apply there. Be done with it, it is that simple. And if everyone feels that way, then their Supply of pilot resumes will be reduced. If that happens, then they will be forced to pay more or give more time off or whatever. That IS Supply and Demand. That also applies to any other airline or job out there. If you don't like what they have to offer don't accept a job there.>>

Supply and demand exists only in the hiring phase of the airline industry. The most qualified applicants receive the interviews and the jobs. IT DOES NOT EXIST in the daily operation of the airline when the management team is looking to cut costs or the industry has entered a down cycle.

 

[dashtrash]

crj200 fo

I'll tell you. Their FA's are much better looking. No Big-Bertha's allowed. Yet, they are not the brightest.

 

[CRJ200FO]

crj200 fo

I'll tell you. Their FA's are much better looking. No Big-Bertha's allowed.

Oh, I guess there are some up-sides.

 

[JetPilot500]

Re: Wake up

Kindergarten economics and flawed reasoning. Unions exist to protect their workers in the event of a strike (self help) and obviously to protect them from the wrath of management. The airline business is cyclical; it is not supply and demand. If it were an airline pilot would be paid $200,000 during the up times and $20,000 during the down times. When those down times come there must be a way to keep the airlines from reducing wages or raiding work rules, pension plans, etc. You seem to believe an overage of qualified pilots, while a high supply/low demand scenario, would not result in an erosion of the wage scale. How many pilots capable of handling the job safely currently exist on the street? Thousands are currently furloughed from the Major Airlines. Almost all could operate an aircraft with complete safety. To put food on the table how many would work for half wages....... $100,000 vs $200,000??? Once that happened how many would then work for $50,000........vs $100,000?? We'd have an entire industry full of scabs.

My company isn't cutting pay. SWA isn't cutting pay. Many other white collar workers (non-union) are not getting their pay cut either in these economic times.

Supply and demand exists only in the hiring phase of the airline industry. The most qualified applicants receive the interviews and the jobs. IT DOES NOT EXIST in the daily operation of the airline when the management team is looking to cut costs or the industry has entered a down cycle.

Companies have to compete with each other in order to retain good employees. My company continues to rank itself with other companies to make sure that we are in-line with the others. If we are not at least in-line with other companies, there would be a lot of attrition, and attrition adds cost. In fact, my company just gave me TWO extra weeks of vacation to remain competitive in the industry. I didn't need a union for that, good 'ol Supply and Demand got me that...even in tough economic times.

Pilots are White Collar workers, and therefore should not act like Blue Collar workers. Don't go and insult all of those people out there working their A$$ off in a steel mill by comparing yourselves to them.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

CRJ200FO

Nice to see that you did PFT to get your job.

Thread: "Is PFT Back?"

If that isn't contradictory to all of your statements on this thread, I don't know what is.

JetPilot500

 

[AlphEcho]

...

Nice to see that you did PFT to get your job.

Wait a second...CRJ200FO went to Gulfstream and paid for his training, and then called other people dirty scabs and talked about union brothers sticking together? Please tell me that 's not true CRJ. I wanted to at least TRY to think seriously about some of the things you've been saying...

 

[CRJ200FO]

...

Wait a second...CRJ200FO went to Gulfstream and paid for his training, and then called other people dirty scabs and talked about union brothers sticking together? Please tell me that 's not true CRJ. I wanted to at least TRY to think seriously about some of the things you've been saying...

If you think PFT and unionism are mutually exclusive, then ALPA better start revoking memberships fast. Pinnacle, Comair, ASA, etc.. have all required PFT at times. Many of these pilots that paid for training at these airlines are at majors now. PFT is nothing new. Thousands of pilots have paid for training throughout the industry's history. Especially in the early to mid '90s.

 

[Publishers]

Amazing

It always is interesting to see how long some of these threads take before they sink into the abyss of name calling and puffing the chest out like a rooster in heat.

Like most people who want an airline career would not like to fly for Southwest and receive those substandard wages and profit checks.

The railway labor act may have some good points but the fact is that the airline business is changing. Maybe the fares are too low but you have to look at the customer base and realize that it has changed.

People do things differently today and an industry must keep up with the changing landscape. I email everythiing today, hardly ever use fax or mail which 10 years ago I used all the time.

Aviation labor needs revamped. On another thread, the term LCC was used for low cost carrier. My contention is that there is no such thing anymore. Airlines are all moving to become the same thing. Somewhere in the middle is where they all will land as will wages and work scope. ALPA will change as well. More or less all they have ever been in an association for negotiation.

 

[AlphEcho]

CRJ,
You go and tell yourself whatever you need to to keep your conscience clear. There are different PFT situations to be sure, but the one you have taken is not one of the easier to excuse. I'm sorry but I'm sick of this BS. If PFT and blind unionism aren't mutually exclusive, they seem to be pretty da@@ near that by my estimation. I have been questioning some of the positions ALPA has taken but one thing I would NOT do is pay to fill a job. I agree with Publisher and don't want to degenerate this board so I'm out...I continue to learn a lot about this industry, and one thing that seems to be true in many arenas is that when people seem to put so much into their heated rhetoric, all that they really have is their heated, empty, rhetoric.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

I find it hard to believe someone would claim that SWA does not provide retirement when they have a dollar for dollar company match on the 401k up to the first 7.3% of a pilots salary. For a 30 year pilot upgrading in year 6 of the 30 years, I'll bet that's a couple million to enjoy for 20+ years after 60. All without the benefit of having to worry about getting furloughed for 30 years.

Someone hasn't done their homework on SWA if they believe there is no retirement program. That retirement allows for a pilot to choose where the $$$ are invested, unlike a pension. Much more in line with how other industries in America operate.

SWA is only going to grow. They have requests for service from over 100 cities. I'd take that 401k match, 15 days off a month flying as a CA for 30 years, anyday!!!

Unless a pilot there has 3-4 wives or too many kids to feed, they'll retire at retirement!!!


Mr. I.

 

[B737G]

JetPilot500, my guess is that you are a corporate pilot. It is not really fair to compare the position you are in to that of the airline pilots. I flew corporate for one year in Atlanta prior to training with the Air Guard and the difference between corporate and airline working environments is night and day in terms of labor management relations. It is great that you received an extra two weeks vacation and you do not feel the need to be represented by a union. In an ideal world, I would not give close to 2% of my pay to ALPA but, that is a necessity given the industry that I work in. If you ever leave your current position and go fly for an airline, get back to me on your thoughts on whether or not a union is necessary. Ask yourself this question, will S1327 in any way affect your career as a corporate pilot? I can guarantee you it will affect the careers of all airline pilots from the 777 Capt. to the EMB-120 FO and not in a positive way. I will continue to pay dues and contribute to ALPA-PAC to defend the career I have worked so hard to obtain. Not trying to bust you chops, I just think you are living in a different world/working environment than airline pilots and it does not appear that you have a dog in this fight so why not just enjoy your extra vacation time and let those of us who will be negatively impacted by S1327 worry about how to deal with it. As someone who grew up in a Republican household that was anti-union, I have learned through experience that ALPA and the right to self help is a necessity in this industry. Airlines get the unions they deserve and leadership must start from the top and work its way down. The difference between Kelleher and other CEOs is that he believed in taking care of your people first and they in turn will take care of the shareholders. Todays CEOs do not understand that concept and the unionism we see today is a direct result of their unwillingness to treat employees in a fair and most of all honest way.

 

[JetPilot500]

B737G

Thank you for your comments.

Let me first clear this up. I was an ALPA member flying a DC-9 for a national airline. I was furloughed about 1 year ago. I have since taken this corporate job, in large part due to my dislike of working in a union environment.

I loved my job flying for an airline. But something has to change. The "Us Against Them" relationship with management drove me crazy. God forbid I somewhat defended the company in a choice they made. No one was very happy. And it wasn't just my company. Everytime I jumpseated on a "Major" all the crews did was complain, complain, complain. Thats not very fun, IMO.

So, since it wasn't right for me, I didn't go back, even after being recalled.

JetPilot500

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

CRJ200FO,

YGTBSM!!! You are whining about SWA pilots adversely effecting other airlines contracts and you paid for your job. I think all will agree that PFT was a ridiculous idea and people like you were the ones that kept it alive. You say that pilots everywhere should stand up against management to force them to kiss your a$$ but you were the first in line to kiss theirs. How are you in a position to argue against how an airline does business when you were managements best friend by paying for your job and effectively jumping ahead of others. Don't lecture anyone here about looking out for the bro's when you trampled all over them in your rush to write a check.

Listening to your rhetoric is like listening to Bill Clinton advocate abstinence.

 

[Lonestar]

Here, here Limbaugh...

My thoughts exactly. Bartender, I'll have another.