All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[LearLove]

BLUE or WHITE?

turbo and F-18 raise good points. Which are we Blue or White collar? I think we are a unique combo of both. Maybe white collar in a blue collar environment. Some lean to one side more than others say bush flying more blue than say 747-400 boy doing SFO china. What about SD-330 guy loading his own pallets/cargo at night but still making the same flying type decisions as 747 guy.

Without sounding stuck up, pilots and their profession is maybe one of the most unique out there. We need language outside of the RLA and in indvidual working group agreements that protects us from our unique working situations we as pilots face. Further though there needs to be language that keeps unions from getting carried away, for example United pilots 2000 contract or U scope. I'm pro union but anti union stupidity.

 

[goldentrout]

The best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong economy.

Congress was controlled from 1988-1994 by the democrats...the last airline downturn started in late 1990 and lasted until 1994.

In 1994 the republicans took control of congress until 2000. The last great airline upswing (defined as airlines making money) was from 1994-2000.

This latest airline downswing (defined as when the airlines started to lose money again) started in 2001. The democrats got 50 seats in the 2000 senate election, and then took control of the senate in 2001.

While these facts don't necessarily prove anything, it is interesting to note, over the last dozen years or so, that when republicans held the congress, the economy was booming and airlines were soaring. During the times the democrats held the congress...the economy was weak and the airlines lost billions.

Much like Fox News...I report, you decide.

So we want the RLA so ALPA can use it to "preserve the profession."

SWA

1. Non-ALPA
2. Never furloughed a pilot (to the best of my knowledge)
3. 30 consecutive years of profitability
4. Hired in 2001 and 2002, will probably hire in 2003
5. Buying more planes and expanding


UAL/DAL/NWA/US Air

1. ALPA
2. Close to 5,000 pilots on furlough
3. Lost $7,000,000,000 last year, on track to lose billions more this year
4. Furloughed a couple thousand in 2001, a couple thousand more in 2002, probably a thousand or so more in 2003.
5. Parking planes, deferring airplane orders, and trimming flight schedules.

I'm happy that ALPA has improved safety, helped with medical issues, etc.

But as far as wage and benefits...maybe I missed it...what has ALPA and the RLA accomplished for us that they aren't getting over at SWA...the profitable, growing airline?

Sorry F-18. I feel, no I know, my job is much more protected by a strong economy, rather than an outdated railroad labor law that artificially gives labor the power to demand wages and benefits that financially jeopardize a company (and therefore, my job), and threaten to shut down the company to get those unrealistic requests.

 

[Ted Striker]

Turbo S7,

I have read some of your other posts before and can tell that you are not with the pro-labor crowd. I have read into some of your posts regarding picket lines and strikes and am not impressed by your soft stands, if you can call them a stand at all. I agree that the RLA needs to be revamped, but this bill that is in right now, the Lott/McCain debacle, would (help) finish destroying our profession. I hope you don't support it.

 

[CRJ200FO]

The best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong economy.

Congress was controlled from 1988-1994 by the democrats...the last airline downturn started in late 1990 and lasted until 1994.

In 1994 the republicans took control of congress until 2000. The last great airline upswing (defined as airlines making money) was from 1994-2000.

This latest airline downswing (defined as when the airlines started to lose money again) started in 2001. The democrats got 50 seats in the 2000 senate election, and then took control of the senate in 2001.

While these facts don't necessarily prove anything, it is interesting to note, over the last dozen years or so, that when republicans held the congress, the economy was booming and airlines were soaring. During the times the democrats held the congress...the economy was weak and the airlines lost billions.

Much like Fox News...I report, you decide.

So we want the RLA so ALPA can use it to "preserve the profession."

SWA

1. Non-ALPA
2. Never furloughed a pilot (to the best of my knowledge)
3. 30 consecutive years of profitability
4. Hired in 2001 and 2002, will probably hire in 2003
5. Buying more planes and expanding


UAL/AMR/DAL/NWA/US Air

1. ALPA
2. Close to 5,000 pilots on furlough
3. Lost $7,000,000,000 last year, on track to lose billions more this year
4. Furloughed a couple thousand in 2001, a couple thousand more in 2002, probably a thousand or so more in 2003.
5. Parking planes, deferring airplane orders, and trimming flight schedules.

I'm happy that ALPA has improved safety, helped with medical issues, etc.

But as far as wage and benefits...maybe I missed it...what has ALPA and the RLA accomplished for us that they aren't getting over at SWA...the profitable, growing airline?

Sorry F-18. I feel, no I know, my job is much more protected by a strong economy, rather than an outdated railroad labor law that artificially gives labor the power to demand wages and benefits that financially jeopardize a company (and therefore, my job), and threaten to shut down the company to get those unrealistic requests.

You're right that a strong economy helps the industry, but you couldn't be more wrong about everything else. I certainly don't want the rest of the industry to be more like SWA. SWA is filled with pilots that are willing to accept an abysmal contract just so they can tell jokes over the PA and wear a funny looking tie. SWA is a disgrace to the profession. (flame away)

The pilots at DAL/UAL/NWA, etc.. deserve our respect. They are doing their best to keep wages and work rules bearable in this industry. FlyDeltasJets and those like him should be commended. They are willing to take a furlough rather than submit to ridiculous concessions that will effectively destroy the contract they worked so hard to get.

We don't need to scrap the RLA. We certainly don't need to get rid of ALPA. And we don't need to make the rest of the industry more like SWA. What we need is for mgmt to face up to the cold, hard facts: you can't make a profit selling tickets from JFK-LAX for $200. Unless of course you treat your customers like cattle like SWA does. There are only 2 things that can save this industry: all airlines raise their ticket prices, or re-regulation.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Turbo S7,

I have read some of your other posts before and can tell that you are not with the pro-labor crowd. I have read into some of your posts regarding picket lines and strikes and am not impressed by your soft stands, if you can call them a stand at all. I agree that the RLA needs to be revamped, but this bill that is in right now, the Lott/McCain debacle, would (help) finish destroying our profession. I hope you don't support it.

Turbo is nothing but a dirty SCAB. You're best just to ignore him. Nothing he says is worth listening to.

 

[Ted Striker]

Who did he SCAB against? How did you find out? Not doubting you, just curious....

 

[dualrated]

The best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong economy.

No, the best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong union. If a strong economy was the deciding factor, then RJ pilots would have pensions and make a professional's wage. I was hired at a regional airline in 1998. No one will contest that was a great year for the econmy and the airline industry. Guess how much I was paid by my benevolent management team? $13.92 a flight hour with an 80 hour guarantee. A strong economy and a profitable company is certainly no guarantee of a fair wage.

If McCain, Lott and CESTA get their way, you can forget about job security. Goodbye Scope, hello lowest bidder. Comair will replace Delta, Chatauqua will replace Comair. Gulfstream will replace Chatauqua...It will be a race to the lowest common denominator, and pilots will lose.

Goldentrout needs a few things cleared up. He lumped AMR in with DAL, UAL etc as being an ALPA carrier. AAL pilots are independent with representation by the APA, not ALPA.

 

[goldentrout]

CRJ200

First off...I stand corrected...AMR pliots are not ALPA.

You said

"SWA is filled with pilots that are willing to accept an abysmal contract just so they can tell jokes over the PA and wear a funny looking tie. SWA is a disgrace to the profession. (flame away)"

Please explain?????/

1. Does Southwest have a worse safety record than any of the other major airlines?
2. Are SWA airlines pilots any less qualified than any of the other airlines?
3. Abysmal contract????
a. SWA 737 Capt tops out at about 150,000 a year. After the 1 Dec 2002 18% paycut, a UAL 737 Capt will top out around 160,000/year.
b. No B-fund at Southwest, but in 1999 they got a 14.5% profit share...for a top Captain, that was about $21,000. That about makes up for the B-fund.
c. I'll grant you SWA gets a couple days less off a month
d. up to about 18yrs seniority, vacation is about the same
e. per diem is about the same (actually a nickle higher at SWA)
f. duty and trip rigs are comparable
g. SWA = 7.11 hrs sick leave per month, UAL = 6 hrs per
month
h. company matches 100% of first 7.3% of 401K at SWA, no
401 K match at UAL
i. 10% discount for ESOP at SWA...no ESOP at UAL

I think the word abysmal is a little overstated...and remember...SWA has never furloughed...SWA is making money...SWA has hired and will hire while all the others are furloughing...SWA is buying planes...all others are parking planes and deferring orders

...maybe those guys at SWA got a good thing over there from which ALPA could learn something...i.e. you have to work with management to come up with a plan where costs will match revenue...not a plan that enriches the top of the seniority list and financially cripples the company every 5-10 years, causing thousands to lose their jobs. In good times everyone benefits (profit sharing as at SWA). In bad times, wages/benefits are in line with revenue so the company can at least break even or make a small profit (as at SWA).

It's just basic economics 101 and I just don't understand why unions are willing to cripple their companies with outrageous demands...unless it's more about the people in power wanting to please their members to retain power...rather than what's best for the company as a whole...but that would mean unions are more intestested in political power than the welfare of their company...that couldn't be true, could it?

...let's ask that question to the American steel workers...if you can still find one out there somewhere.

 

[AlphEcho]

I am just beginning working my way to a point where I could speak to this subject as authoritatively as most of the rest of you. However, there are a few minor things that I want to throw out.
First, to CRJ200FO: Your comment to Turbo, calling him a "dirty scab" and saying that nothing he says is worth listening to, reminds me of all the things I hate about blowhard, emotional, BS union rhetoric, of which I do have some experience. I mean, can any of you blind "union-or-die" people ever try to think out a logical argument to convince people of the merits of your position? Do you think you are fighting for the 8 hour day for West Virginia coal miners? Unions are good overall, and have helped make many professional pilots very wealthy. However, isn't it better to actually have a job that makes you $80,000 a year instead of getting furloughed over a contract that would have made you 90k? Or maybe you are a little jaded because you are at pinnacle, or perhaps you were a West Virginia coal miner before you got your ratings. But please, I would love to listen to your arguments, I have a lot to learn, but your irrational slanders only serve to shatter your credibility and the credibility of all those that have the misfortune of agreeing with you.

To all: I think that the Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act is hardly the top priority of anybody in Congress right now. I took the probability of its passage "as is" into account when I voted last week. I have emailed my senators to protest its current format, and we'll see what happens.

 

[CRJ200FO]

I am just beginning working my way to a point where I could speak to this subject as authoritatively as most of the rest of you. However, there are a few minor things that I want to throw out.
First, to CRJ200FO: Your comment to Turbo, calling him a "dirty scab" and saying that nothing he says is worth listening to, reminds me of all the things I hate about blowhard, emotional, BS union rhetoric, of which I do have some experience. I mean, can any of you blind "union-or-die" people ever try to think out a logical argument to convince people of the merits of your position? Do you think you are fighting for the 8 hour day for West Virginia coal miners? Unions are good overall, and have helped make many professional pilots very wealthy. However, isn't it better to actually have a job that makes you $80,000 a year instead of getting furloughed over a contract that would have made you 90k? Or maybe you are a little jaded because you are at pinnacle, or perhaps you were a West Virginia coal miner before you got your ratings. But please, I would love to listen to your arguments, I have a lot to learn, but your irrational slanders only serve to shatter your credibility and the credibility of all those that have the misfortune of agreeing with you.

To all: I think that the Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act is hardly the top priority of anybody in Congress right now. I took the probability of its passage "as is" into account when I voted last week. I have emailed my senators to protest its current format, and we'll see what happens.

I will not have a logical debate with scumbags like Turbo because there is no reasoning with them. They only care about themselves, and are willing to stab anybody in the back to get aheah in their careers.

To answer you question, no it is not better to have a job at 80k a year instead of furloughed fighting for 90k a year. The only reason we are forced to make choices like that is because mgmt refuses to use commen sense. They will continue to lower their ticket prices even though they aren't making any money and then go to their pilots for radical pay concessions. It's the same BS that Lorenzo tried in the late 80s at Eastern. He sold routes, lowered ticket prices, and when he realized it had just made things much worse, he demanded concessions. Airline mgmt just doesn't learn from history. We should not accept concessions until mgmt changes the way they do business. It's obvious that the way they are doing things doesn't work.

And no, I'm not jaded because I work at PCL. I happen to like my job.

P.S. Don't hold your breath for me to stop throwing "slanders" at Turbo and his ilk. They're slime and deserve to be treated as such.