All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[Ted Striker]

Who did he SCAB against? How did you find out? Not doubting you, just curious....

 

[dualrated]

The best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong economy.

No, the best thing for airline pilot wage and job security is a strong union. If a strong economy was the deciding factor, then RJ pilots would have pensions and make a professional's wage. I was hired at a regional airline in 1998. No one will contest that was a great year for the econmy and the airline industry. Guess how much I was paid by my benevolent management team? $13.92 a flight hour with an 80 hour guarantee. A strong economy and a profitable company is certainly no guarantee of a fair wage.

If McCain, Lott and CESTA get their way, you can forget about job security. Goodbye Scope, hello lowest bidder. Comair will replace Delta, Chatauqua will replace Comair. Gulfstream will replace Chatauqua...It will be a race to the lowest common denominator, and pilots will lose.

Goldentrout needs a few things cleared up. He lumped AMR in with DAL, UAL etc as being an ALPA carrier. AAL pilots are independent with representation by the APA, not ALPA.

 

[goldentrout]

CRJ200

First off...I stand corrected...AMR pliots are not ALPA.

You said

"SWA is filled with pilots that are willing to accept an abysmal contract just so they can tell jokes over the PA and wear a funny looking tie. SWA is a disgrace to the profession. (flame away)"

Please explain?????/

1. Does Southwest have a worse safety record than any of the other major airlines?
2. Are SWA airlines pilots any less qualified than any of the other airlines?
3. Abysmal contract????
a. SWA 737 Capt tops out at about 150,000 a year. After the 1 Dec 2002 18% paycut, a UAL 737 Capt will top out around 160,000/year.
b. No B-fund at Southwest, but in 1999 they got a 14.5% profit share...for a top Captain, that was about $21,000. That about makes up for the B-fund.
c. I'll grant you SWA gets a couple days less off a month
d. up to about 18yrs seniority, vacation is about the same
e. per diem is about the same (actually a nickle higher at SWA)
f. duty and trip rigs are comparable
g. SWA = 7.11 hrs sick leave per month, UAL = 6 hrs per
month
h. company matches 100% of first 7.3% of 401K at SWA, no
401 K match at UAL
i. 10% discount for ESOP at SWA...no ESOP at UAL

I think the word abysmal is a little overstated...and remember...SWA has never furloughed...SWA is making money...SWA has hired and will hire while all the others are furloughing...SWA is buying planes...all others are parking planes and deferring orders

...maybe those guys at SWA got a good thing over there from which ALPA could learn something...i.e. you have to work with management to come up with a plan where costs will match revenue...not a plan that enriches the top of the seniority list and financially cripples the company every 5-10 years, causing thousands to lose their jobs. In good times everyone benefits (profit sharing as at SWA). In bad times, wages/benefits are in line with revenue so the company can at least break even or make a small profit (as at SWA).

It's just basic economics 101 and I just don't understand why unions are willing to cripple their companies with outrageous demands...unless it's more about the people in power wanting to please their members to retain power...rather than what's best for the company as a whole...but that would mean unions are more intestested in political power than the welfare of their company...that couldn't be true, could it?

...let's ask that question to the American steel workers...if you can still find one out there somewhere.

 

[AlphEcho]

I am just beginning working my way to a point where I could speak to this subject as authoritatively as most of the rest of you. However, there are a few minor things that I want to throw out.
First, to CRJ200FO: Your comment to Turbo, calling him a "dirty scab" and saying that nothing he says is worth listening to, reminds me of all the things I hate about blowhard, emotional, BS union rhetoric, of which I do have some experience. I mean, can any of you blind "union-or-die" people ever try to think out a logical argument to convince people of the merits of your position? Do you think you are fighting for the 8 hour day for West Virginia coal miners? Unions are good overall, and have helped make many professional pilots very wealthy. However, isn't it better to actually have a job that makes you $80,000 a year instead of getting furloughed over a contract that would have made you 90k? Or maybe you are a little jaded because you are at pinnacle, or perhaps you were a West Virginia coal miner before you got your ratings. But please, I would love to listen to your arguments, I have a lot to learn, but your irrational slanders only serve to shatter your credibility and the credibility of all those that have the misfortune of agreeing with you.

To all: I think that the Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act is hardly the top priority of anybody in Congress right now. I took the probability of its passage "as is" into account when I voted last week. I have emailed my senators to protest its current format, and we'll see what happens.

 

[CRJ200FO]

I am just beginning working my way to a point where I could speak to this subject as authoritatively as most of the rest of you. However, there are a few minor things that I want to throw out.
First, to CRJ200FO: Your comment to Turbo, calling him a "dirty scab" and saying that nothing he says is worth listening to, reminds me of all the things I hate about blowhard, emotional, BS union rhetoric, of which I do have some experience. I mean, can any of you blind "union-or-die" people ever try to think out a logical argument to convince people of the merits of your position? Do you think you are fighting for the 8 hour day for West Virginia coal miners? Unions are good overall, and have helped make many professional pilots very wealthy. However, isn't it better to actually have a job that makes you $80,000 a year instead of getting furloughed over a contract that would have made you 90k? Or maybe you are a little jaded because you are at pinnacle, or perhaps you were a West Virginia coal miner before you got your ratings. But please, I would love to listen to your arguments, I have a lot to learn, but your irrational slanders only serve to shatter your credibility and the credibility of all those that have the misfortune of agreeing with you.

To all: I think that the Airline Labor Dispute Resolution Act is hardly the top priority of anybody in Congress right now. I took the probability of its passage "as is" into account when I voted last week. I have emailed my senators to protest its current format, and we'll see what happens.

I will not have a logical debate with scumbags like Turbo because there is no reasoning with them. They only care about themselves, and are willing to stab anybody in the back to get aheah in their careers.

To answer you question, no it is not better to have a job at 80k a year instead of furloughed fighting for 90k a year. The only reason we are forced to make choices like that is because mgmt refuses to use commen sense. They will continue to lower their ticket prices even though they aren't making any money and then go to their pilots for radical pay concessions. It's the same BS that Lorenzo tried in the late 80s at Eastern. He sold routes, lowered ticket prices, and when he realized it had just made things much worse, he demanded concessions. Airline mgmt just doesn't learn from history. We should not accept concessions until mgmt changes the way they do business. It's obvious that the way they are doing things doesn't work.

And no, I'm not jaded because I work at PCL. I happen to like my job.

P.S. Don't hold your breath for me to stop throwing "slanders" at Turbo and his ilk. They're slime and deserve to be treated as such.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Who did he SCAB against? How did you find out? Not doubting you, just curious....

He admitted it on this message board about six months ago. If you search for the old PFT threads of about that time you can find his coming out. To the best of my knowledge he has never stated what airline he scabbed at. Not that it really matters.

 

[prodigal]

The Big Picture

Beechnut, your point #1 hit the nail right on the head. BTW, the greater good of the nation IS our best interest, too. Sadly, too many are blinded by their own narrow self interests to understand this.
Goldentrout also has it right in that a strong economy is the best thing for our industry and for all industries and jobs for that matter.
Dualrated, you are very wrong. What you fail to factor into the equation is the simple law of supply and demand as it relates to the # of pilots competing for the available jobs. No union in the world will overcome market forces for long. The market will shape the industry, not the other way around. This is so basic it amazes me how few people grasp the concept. Go out and run your own business for a few years and then let me know what you think. Bad economy=low/no profits=businesses cut costs=job losses. Even our illustrious profession is not immune from these basic laws.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Thank you all for such entertaining reading. We have a dude telling us that SWA pilots are a disgrace to the profession another couple dudes calling someone else a scab simply because (from my estimation) he doesn't share their view.

So tell me, all knowing people, how is SWA a disgrace to the industry? Could it be that they have figured out how to provide a pretty good service that their customers like with loyal, happy employees and still be able to make a profit when the economy isn't so great? Too bad United, Delta or American couldn't figure out how to do that. Or could it be that ALPA is just stinging because the strongest passenger airline in the industry doesn't generate any union dues for them? Or could it be that SWA employees actually like their management which makes those held hostage by ALPA a little jealous? Or maybe all the furloughee's are just upset that all the SWA pilots they made fun of a couple years ago ALL STILL HAVE THEIR JOBS!!!! Maybe you'll see one at the bank when you're cashing your unemployment check. Don't bother him too much though, he's got a lot of papers to sign to buy your foreclosed house.

Keep posting those enlightening, yet comical posts. It really is great entertainment.

 

[CRJ200FO]

CRJ200

First off...I stand corrected...AMR pliots are not ALPA.

You said

"SWA is filled with pilots that are willing to accept an abysmal contract just so they can tell jokes over the PA and wear a funny looking tie. SWA is a disgrace to the profession. (flame away)"

Please explain?????/

1. Does Southwest have a worse safety record than any of the other major airlines?
2. Are SWA airlines pilots any less qualified than any of the other airlines?
3. Abysmal contract????
a. SWA 737 Capt tops out at about 150,000 a year. After the 1 Dec 2002 18% paycut, a UAL 737 Capt will top out around 160,000/year.
b. No B-fund at Southwest, but in 1999 they got a 14.5% profit share...for a top Captain, that was about $21,000. That about makes up for the B-fund.
c. I'll grant you SWA gets a couple days less off a month
d. up to about 18yrs seniority, vacation is about the same
e. per diem is about the same (actually a nickle higher at SWA)
f. duty and trip rigs are comparable
g. SWA = 7.11 hrs sick leave per month, UAL = 6 hrs per
month
h. company matches 100% of first 7.3% of 401K at SWA, no
401 K match at UAL
i. 10% discount for ESOP at SWA...no ESOP at UAL

I think the word abysmal is a little overstated...and remember...SWA has never furloughed...SWA is making money...SWA has hired and will hire while all the others are furloughing...SWA is buying planes...all others are parking planes and deferring orders

...maybe those guys at SWA got a good thing over there from which ALPA could learn something...i.e. you have to work with management to come up with a plan where costs will match revenue...not a plan that enriches the top of the seniority list and financially cripples the company every 5-10 years, causing thousands to lose their jobs. In good times everyone benefits (profit sharing as at SWA). In bad times, wages/benefits are in line with revenue so the company can at least break even or make a small profit (as at SWA).

It's just basic economics 101 and I just don't understand why unions are willing to cripple their companies with outrageous demands...unless it's more about the people in power wanting to please their members to retain power...rather than what's best for the company as a whole...but that would mean unions are more intestested in political power than the welfare of their company...that couldn't be true, could it?

...let's ask that question to the American steel workers...if you can still find one out there somewhere.

I'll admit that the word abysmal was probably hyperbole, but let's look at a couple of items here:

Pay: The concessions at UAL are only temporary. UAL pilot pay will be back to old levels in 5 years. And as you admitted, even after a 18 percent pay cut, UAL pilots still make more than SWA pilots. If you do the math, you'll find out that SWA pilots would need to get a 26 percent pay raise just to match what UAL pilots are making pre-concessions. And let's not forget that Delta pays even higher than UAL. Max pay for a 737 CA at DAL is about 190k a year. There are no concessions planned at DAL.

Profit sharing: According to my most recent info, profit sharing is gone for SWA pilots starting in '04. They will go back to base pay. And I think if you research it a little better you will find that ESOP is alive and well at UAL. There have been dozens of articles about it in newspapers across the nation for the last few months. Look it up.

Days off: You're right that they have less days off. But they also have many legs a day, very short turns, and fly alot of the same routes that turboprops fly. It's not easy flying. Certainly not the kind of work I want to be doing when I retire. I want to leave that kind of flying behind when I leave the regionals, and most pilots I talk to agree.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Could it be that they have figured out how to provide a pretty good service that their customers like with loyal, happy employees and still be able to make a profit when the economy isn't so great?

What good service are you referring to? I've never met anyone that has received good service on a SWA flight. The only reason people continue to go to SWA is because they will sell tickets for unreasonably low prices. Don't delude yourself into thinking that people fly on SWA for good service. Explain to me how SWA provides better service than the real majors.

 

[AlphEcho]

It's not easy flying. Certainly not the kind of work I want to be doing when I retire. I want to leave that kind of flying behind when I leave the regionals,

Without some common sense by the unions in achieving their goals you and I both won't leave the regionals ANY time soon. What's the point of achieving these unbelievable contracts if you have to give half of it back in concessions a couple years later? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Not to mention hundreds of your fellow pilots having to hit the street... I'm still waiting for that logical argument...

 

[CRJ200FO]

Without some common sense by the unions in achieving their goals you and I both won't leave the regionals ANY time soon. What's the point of achieving these unbelievable contracts if you have to give half of it back in concessions a couple years later? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Not to mention hundreds of your fellow pilots having to hit the street... I'm still waiting for that logical argument...

Concessions are not always made. I can't remember the last time DAL made concessions. A strong pilot group doesn't have to. DAL secured the best contract in the industry and still has it. Yes, DAL pilots are on the street for the time being, but many furloughed DAL pilots will tell you that they would rather be furloughed for now than to give in to radical concessions and be off furlough. Wouldn't you want to come back to a job worth having?

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Explain to me how SWA provides better service than the real majors.

I'd be happy to explain as soon as you show me where I said SWA provides "better" service.

In the meantime, you might want to get out one of your old elementary school reading books and refine your skills.

 

[B1900DFO]

Alpha Echo,
Don't blame alpa and their help in negotiating industry leading contracts for the furlough situation at the majors. I think it is safe to say that AMR pilots make quite a bit less than Dal, and they are not even Alpa, yet they have pilots on furlough. What about Hawaiian who anounced plans of companywide furloughs. I could be wrong but I believe that Hal 767 captains make approx. 150K/year, that is a full 100k less than a comparable Ual, Dal pilot. What about Kitty Hawk? I think we can all agree that they don't make much, yet they furloughed. I don't think we should point fingers at the various mainline groups for not bending over and giving up the farm just so a few of us might get hired sooner. Nobody owes you a job.

I think what we have is a climate where full service airlines are being bled dry regardless of their pilot's salaries.
If you have so much animosity for Alpa, do us all a favor and don't send your resume to any Alpa carriers. We could use a little less competition in this industry.

One last thing. I'm sure many will disagree but I once heard somebody say that in the end concessions rarely help an airline. Look at Eastern, TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, US Air (still losing money hand over fist). If you don't give concessions it forces management to actually manage the airline to profitability. Something to think about.

 

[CRJ200FO]

One last thing. I'm sure many will disagree but I once heard somebody say that in the end concessions rarely help an airline. Look at Eastern, TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, US Air (still losing money hand over fist). If you don't give concessions it forces management to actually manage the airline to profitability. Something to think about.

Quite possibly the smartest thing ever said on this message board. Concessions do nothing to help an airline if mgmt doesn't change the way they do business.