All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[banned username 2]

CRJ200FO,

YGTBSM!!! You are whining about SWA pilots adversely effecting other airlines contracts and you paid for your job. I think all will agree that PFT was a ridiculous idea and people like you were the ones that kept it alive. You say that pilots everywhere should stand up against management to force them to kiss your a$$ but you were the first in line to kiss theirs. How are you in a position to argue against how an airline does business when you were managements best friend by paying for your job and effectively jumping ahead of others. Don't lecture anyone here about looking out for the bro's when you trampled all over them in your rush to write a check.

Listening to your rhetoric is like listening to Bill Clinton advocate abstinence.

Hehehe... couldn't have said it better myself... and to make it even worse, he did it recently (not back in the early 90's when PFT was rampant!)... he is only 20 years old, so he wrote the check in the last year or two...

Unbelieveable!

 

[prodigal]

crj200

May I also point out yet another hypocracy of yours? You deigned to critisize SWA pilots for having to pay for their own type ratings WHILE YOU WERE A PFTer???!!! Is that irony totally lost on you? Talk about intellectually vacant.
And about chilling out some, yes, you'll especially need that life skill when you get furloughed.

 

[bigD]

You can't stand there saying your against PFT, and that it hurts the industry, and then turn around and defend SWA.

Actually, I think you can. I don't see SWA requiring a type rating any differently than a carrier requiring any other rating or certificate beyond the FAA requirements. The anti-PFT people here are typically against someone paying to sit in the right seat of an airliner and fly revenue passengers - and THAT is a completely different situation than SWA.

 

[banned username 2]

SWA is the biggest PFT deal. How many pilots there went out and bought the 737 type to get the job because the airline requires it? They don't want to pay for your training. If you interview without it, you have six months to go get it or you won't get hired.

UH... When you get hired at SWA you still go through ALL of the training at SWA (at cost to SWA) and you get paid during training... The Type is merely a hiring criteria and in NO WAY replaces any of the required training for work on the line... Why do you think people are getting SWA "Class Dates"? It is because they are going to START TRAINING, not walk up to a 737 full of pax and go fly a trip...

Now PFT, you are paying for your training, and the airline incurs no cost during your training (because YOU are paying for it)...

Apples and Oranges...

 

[JetPilot500]

Here is the difference.

I'll use Comair as the example here. When they used to require PFT, it was $13,000. That $13,000 was paid to cover the costs of obtaining your initial new hire First Officer training. This is done to basically eliminate the training costs associated with training a new hire. Thereby, you are subsidizing the company.

SWA is not saving any money by requiring you to have a B737 type rating. They still put you through the exact same training that you would go through if you didn't have the type rating. If you already have the type rating, say from a previous employer, then you are not required to pay SWA for your job. You are not subsidizing SWA.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: crj200

May I also point out yet another hypocracy of yours? You deigned to critisize SWA pilots for having to pay for their own type ratings WHILE YOU WERE A PFTer???!!! Is that irony totally lost on you? Talk about intellectually vacant.
And about chilling out some, yes, you'll especially need that life skill when you get furloughed.

I really didn't want to keep talking about this subject, but I just wanted to make a correction. I didn't criticize the SWA pilots for buying their type rating. I was merely pointing out that you all defend PFT at SWA (because that is what it really is, whether you want to admit it or not), but you attack GIA. It's not apples and oranges. It's still PFT. If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT. That's my point. I'm not attacking the SWA pilots for buying their type. Merely pointing out that it is hypocracy to criticize GIA pilots when you buy your type to get a job at SWA.

 

[prodigal]

Huh-uh.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: crj200

I was merely pointing out that you all defend PFT at SWA (because that is what it really is, whether you want to admit it or not), but you attack GIA. It's not apples and oranges. It's still PFT. If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT.

Wow, this boy just don't get it....

SWA is NOT being subsidized in any way, shape or form by you getting the type elsewhere... The type does NOT replace any training whatsoever... The Type IS a HIRING CRITERIA and nothing else... Just like a 4 year degree at most Majors (BTW CRJ200FO, when are you getting your 4 year degree?)

Good Grief! Excuse me whilst I go bang my head against the wall!

 

[JetPilot500]

Re: Re: crj200

...If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT. That's my point. I'm not attacking the SWA pilots for buying their type. Merely pointing out that it is hypocracy to criticize GIA pilots when you buy your type to get a job at SWA.

You don't have to BUY the type rating or PAY for the type rating to get hired at SWA. You just need to have one. Many people who flew for Vanguard or Frontier are now at SWA, and they did not PAY for their type rating.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: Re: Re: crj200

Wow, this boy just don't get it....

SWA is NOT being subsidized in any way, shape or form by you getting the type elsewhere... The type does NOT replace any training whatsoever... The Type IS a HIRING CRITERIA and nothing else... Just like a 4 year degree at most Majors (BTW CRJ200FO, when are you getting your 4 year degree?)

Good Grief! Excuse me whilst I go bang my head against the wall!

They don't have to be subsidized by it. They may not be receiving the money from the types directly, but they are certainly saving money from it. They have virtually illiminated the possibilty of washouts by requiring the type before a job. It's actually a very smart move by mgmt at SWA. But to say that SWA does not benefit financially by requiring the type is very short-sighted.

 

[dualrated]

Unbelievable.

The biggest threat to the profession of airline pilot since Frank Lorenzo is looming on the horizon and all we can talk about is PFT.

There are no bills before Congress to mandate PFT!

If the McCain bill passes, you'll never see another pay-raise (except for cost-of-living), and you'll always be looking over your shoulder, waiting for the next Gulfstream to replace your flying.

Prodigal-- Maybe you're right and I just don't get it. Please explain to me the market forces that will allow me to seek and secure a pay-raise with the McCain as law? You have read it, right?

 

[prodigal]

I'm not saying that there are any such provisions. And I'm not arguing directly for or against this bill. Rather I'm simply making an empirical observation, namely, that attempts to control the market, or to isolate an industry from market forces are, will in the long run fail.

 

[B737G]

JetPilot500, I totally agree the us against them mentality has got to go. I am only 31 years of age and am already tired of the poor working relationship I have experienced between management and labor. There is a reason for this mindset and it starts at the top/CEO. If todays executives would treat pilots like the assets they are and not simply like a tool to generate revenue that is disposable, the working relationship just might improve. The executives get paid the big bucks to lead and I see very little leadership. SWA is significantly more unionized than my airline/DAL and yet, the relationship between employees and management is significantly better. When executives learn how to treat employees with respect and honesty the shareholders will in turn see the value of their investment. Whether you agree or disagree with ALPA you cannot deny that S1327 stinks of socialism. Republicans are supposedly for capitalism, free markets and less government and yet this bill dictates an American workers pay, retirement, work rules and quality of life. Sounds like socialism to me. What is next? Limit physicians salaries so the 42 million Americans without healthcare can afford it? This does not sound like the sort of society that I have been willing to fight and die for.

 

[dualrated]

attempts to control the market, or to isolate an industry from market forces are, will in the long run fail.

It took over 70 years for these attempts to fail in the Soviet Union. I can't wait that long.

Let me get this straight...you agree that trying to manipulate a market is doomed to failure, but you don't oppose this bill to control the airline labor market? You're right...I don't get it.

 

[active_herk]

I've got an idea. Lets say that S1327 does pass. Why don't we propose that it not only apply to the pilots, but to management as well? I'm sure the CEOs of the airline industry wouldn't mind having an arbitrator decide what their pay and benefits should be as well as ours.