All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[banned username 2]

CRJ200FO,

YGTBSM!!! You are whining about SWA pilots adversely effecting other airlines contracts and you paid for your job. I think all will agree that PFT was a ridiculous idea and people like you were the ones that kept it alive. You say that pilots everywhere should stand up against management to force them to kiss your a$$ but you were the first in line to kiss theirs. How are you in a position to argue against how an airline does business when you were managements best friend by paying for your job and effectively jumping ahead of others. Don't lecture anyone here about looking out for the bro's when you trampled all over them in your rush to write a check.

Listening to your rhetoric is like listening to Bill Clinton advocate abstinence.

Hehehe... couldn't have said it better myself... and to make it even worse, he did it recently (not back in the early 90's when PFT was rampant!)... he is only 20 years old, so he wrote the check in the last year or two...

Unbelieveable!

 

[prodigal]

crj200

May I also point out yet another hypocracy of yours? You deigned to critisize SWA pilots for having to pay for their own type ratings WHILE YOU WERE A PFTer???!!! Is that irony totally lost on you? Talk about intellectually vacant.
And about chilling out some, yes, you'll especially need that life skill when you get furloughed.

 

[bigD]

You can't stand there saying your against PFT, and that it hurts the industry, and then turn around and defend SWA.

Actually, I think you can. I don't see SWA requiring a type rating any differently than a carrier requiring any other rating or certificate beyond the FAA requirements. The anti-PFT people here are typically against someone paying to sit in the right seat of an airliner and fly revenue passengers - and THAT is a completely different situation than SWA.

 

[banned username 2]

SWA is the biggest PFT deal. How many pilots there went out and bought the 737 type to get the job because the airline requires it? They don't want to pay for your training. If you interview without it, you have six months to go get it or you won't get hired.

UH... When you get hired at SWA you still go through ALL of the training at SWA (at cost to SWA) and you get paid during training... The Type is merely a hiring criteria and in NO WAY replaces any of the required training for work on the line... Why do you think people are getting SWA "Class Dates"? It is because they are going to START TRAINING, not walk up to a 737 full of pax and go fly a trip...

Now PFT, you are paying for your training, and the airline incurs no cost during your training (because YOU are paying for it)...

Apples and Oranges...

 

[JetPilot500]

Here is the difference.

I'll use Comair as the example here. When they used to require PFT, it was $13,000. That $13,000 was paid to cover the costs of obtaining your initial new hire First Officer training. This is done to basically eliminate the training costs associated with training a new hire. Thereby, you are subsidizing the company.

SWA is not saving any money by requiring you to have a B737 type rating. They still put you through the exact same training that you would go through if you didn't have the type rating. If you already have the type rating, say from a previous employer, then you are not required to pay SWA for your job. You are not subsidizing SWA.

BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: crj200

May I also point out yet another hypocracy of yours? You deigned to critisize SWA pilots for having to pay for their own type ratings WHILE YOU WERE A PFTer???!!! Is that irony totally lost on you? Talk about intellectually vacant.
And about chilling out some, yes, you'll especially need that life skill when you get furloughed.

I really didn't want to keep talking about this subject, but I just wanted to make a correction. I didn't criticize the SWA pilots for buying their type rating. I was merely pointing out that you all defend PFT at SWA (because that is what it really is, whether you want to admit it or not), but you attack GIA. It's not apples and oranges. It's still PFT. If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT. That's my point. I'm not attacking the SWA pilots for buying their type. Merely pointing out that it is hypocracy to criticize GIA pilots when you buy your type to get a job at SWA.

 

[prodigal]

Huh-uh.

 

[banned username 2]

Re: Re: crj200

I was merely pointing out that you all defend PFT at SWA (because that is what it really is, whether you want to admit it or not), but you attack GIA. It's not apples and oranges. It's still PFT. If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT.

Wow, this boy just don't get it....

SWA is NOT being subsidized in any way, shape or form by you getting the type elsewhere... The type does NOT replace any training whatsoever... The Type IS a HIRING CRITERIA and nothing else... Just like a 4 year degree at most Majors (BTW CRJ200FO, when are you getting your 4 year degree?)

Good Grief! Excuse me whilst I go bang my head against the wall!

 

[JetPilot500]

Re: Re: crj200

...If you don't pay for the type, you don't get hired. Simple. Those willing to spend their own money on a type rating will get hired, those that aren't won't get hired. It's still PFT. That's my point. I'm not attacking the SWA pilots for buying their type. Merely pointing out that it is hypocracy to criticize GIA pilots when you buy your type to get a job at SWA.

You don't have to BUY the type rating or PAY for the type rating to get hired at SWA. You just need to have one. Many people who flew for Vanguard or Frontier are now at SWA, and they did not PAY for their type rating.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

Re: Re: Re: crj200

Wow, this boy just don't get it....

SWA is NOT being subsidized in any way, shape or form by you getting the type elsewhere... The type does NOT replace any training whatsoever... The Type IS a HIRING CRITERIA and nothing else... Just like a 4 year degree at most Majors (BTW CRJ200FO, when are you getting your 4 year degree?)

Good Grief! Excuse me whilst I go bang my head against the wall!

They don't have to be subsidized by it. They may not be receiving the money from the types directly, but they are certainly saving money from it. They have virtually illiminated the possibilty of washouts by requiring the type before a job. It's actually a very smart move by mgmt at SWA. But to say that SWA does not benefit financially by requiring the type is very short-sighted.

 

[dualrated]

Unbelievable.

The biggest threat to the profession of airline pilot since Frank Lorenzo is looming on the horizon and all we can talk about is PFT.

There are no bills before Congress to mandate PFT!

If the McCain bill passes, you'll never see another pay-raise (except for cost-of-living), and you'll always be looking over your shoulder, waiting for the next Gulfstream to replace your flying.

Prodigal-- Maybe you're right and I just don't get it. Please explain to me the market forces that will allow me to seek and secure a pay-raise with the McCain as law? You have read it, right?

 

[prodigal]

I'm not saying that there are any such provisions. And I'm not arguing directly for or against this bill. Rather I'm simply making an empirical observation, namely, that attempts to control the market, or to isolate an industry from market forces are, will in the long run fail.

 

[B737G]

JetPilot500, I totally agree the us against them mentality has got to go. I am only 31 years of age and am already tired of the poor working relationship I have experienced between management and labor. There is a reason for this mindset and it starts at the top/CEO. If todays executives would treat pilots like the assets they are and not simply like a tool to generate revenue that is disposable, the working relationship just might improve. The executives get paid the big bucks to lead and I see very little leadership. SWA is significantly more unionized than my airline/DAL and yet, the relationship between employees and management is significantly better. When executives learn how to treat employees with respect and honesty the shareholders will in turn see the value of their investment. Whether you agree or disagree with ALPA you cannot deny that S1327 stinks of socialism. Republicans are supposedly for capitalism, free markets and less government and yet this bill dictates an American workers pay, retirement, work rules and quality of life. Sounds like socialism to me. What is next? Limit physicians salaries so the 42 million Americans without healthcare can afford it? This does not sound like the sort of society that I have been willing to fight and die for.

 

[dualrated]

attempts to control the market, or to isolate an industry from market forces are, will in the long run fail.

It took over 70 years for these attempts to fail in the Soviet Union. I can't wait that long.

Let me get this straight...you agree that trying to manipulate a market is doomed to failure, but you don't oppose this bill to control the airline labor market? You're right...I don't get it.

 

[active_herk]

I've got an idea. Lets say that S1327 does pass. Why don't we propose that it not only apply to the pilots, but to management as well? I'm sure the CEOs of the airline industry wouldn't mind having an arbitrator decide what their pay and benefits should be as well as ours.

 

[goldentrout]

This is going to be unpopular, but...

We have done this to ourselves.

Here's part of the bill

"(B) The financial condition of the air carrier and its ability to incur changes in labor costs while continuing to maintain its competitive market position, pay its debts, meet its other contractual obligations, provide job security and equivalent treatment for all of its employees, and return a reasonable profit, consistent with historic margins and rates of return, for its shareholders."

Unions (including ALPA) in this country have gotten to the point where their primary concern is not the long term financial viability of a company. Rather, it's a greed that holds companies hostage under the threat of a devastating strike.

Kit Darby even admitted as much at an Air Inc conference, "Unions try to get as much as they can in the good times, give back as little as possible in the bad times."

Does ALPA (or the mechanics' union, or the FA union) even consider this provision "B" above in contract negotations? With all the major carriers in the toilet and losing billions, I think not.

Bankruptcy happened at US Air...and it's a real possibility at UAL.
What the heck are ALPA and the other employee unions thinking? AMR (non-ALPA, but still...) lost almost 1 billion last quarter (924,000,000 to be exact). And all the unions say is "its managment's fault."

DAL/UAL got their contracts at the tail end of the last economic boom. Did ALPA and the other employee unions give any thought as to how the company was supposed to pay their bills during an economic slowdown?

Obviously not...we'll just sacrifice the bottom 20% or so of the seniority list, send the company to near bankruptcy, toss thousands of the company's employees on the street, to "preserve the profession."

Greed defined in the dictionary-- "an excessive desire to acquire or possess, as wealth or power, beyond what one needs or deserves."

Much like the long shore workers, when we strike, it can have a devastating effect on the economy.

And what do what do we strike for?

1. To make $25,000/month instead of $22,000/month, while only working 12 days or so a month.

2. Work rules that say if my vacation touches a trip, I'm displaced with no loss in pay. (I know guys at UAL who make over $20,000/ month a couple times year to not work at all, by bidding vacation that touches their trips.)

3. To have a double company fundedretirement plan? Why do we need a guaranteed A benefit funded by the company after we retire, and then a "B" benefit, funded by the company? Maybe it's becasue ALPA doesn't really care about the financially viability of the company...so they need a B fund just in case. With the money we make, shouldn't we be responsible for some of our own retirement?

ALPA is no longer "defending the poor, tired, over tasked laborer against the capitalist industrialists."

Most of us work less than half the month, at a job that's just not that tough, and our wages and benefits are better than just about any industry in America.

By being greedy, we have brought this on ourselves.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

GT, I am not even qualified to respond to the original thread but here are some rambling thoughts to consider:
It is being presumptuous that had lower labor cost been negotiated the current situation would not be as bad as it is now. A combination of more lower costs carriers, the decline in business travel, the current structure of trying to be all things to all people have hurt your industry. I somewhat agree "high" labor costs and work rules have contributed to the woes but not in itself. Seems like airline tickets have become a commodity yet business folks don't seem to think anything about paying $129 a night at the Hilton!
I wouldn't be so quick to fall on your sword and say you've brought this on yourselves. It is more complicated than that. Also, to a certain degree, management benefits from these "high" wages since their pay is usually reflective of what others in the company are getting paid. Of course the executives pay is off the charts! In a warped way, if management treats their own people like a commodity then it is only a matter of time they'll treat each other that way (management).
I think (honorable) capitalism is great but events over the last few years have caused me to be skeptical of big business. Things like credit card companies selling your personal information to other companies (I know you can request they don't do this but why should I have to be the one to request?). Companies moving their business to other countries like China.
Bottom line it cuts both ways, there are bums in labor and there are bums in management. At the same time there are good people in labor and management. Unfortunately, seems like there are more "greedy" folks in positions of authority.
I would also argue the folks at the regionals are underpaid. Companies want a four year degree plus all the hours to meet the minimum quals yet pay $30K a year is taking advantage of the desire to fly to say the least.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Bankruptcy happened at US Air...and it's a real possibility at UAL.
What the heck are ALPA and the other employee unions thinking? AMR (non-ALPA, but still...) lost almost 1 billion last quarter (924,000,000 to be exact). And all the unions say is "its managment's fault."

Yes, it is mgmt's fault. If every pilot at U agreed to work for free for 6 months the carrier would still be bankrupt. Labor costs are not causing the problems at these airlines. U bought dozens of new airplanes the last decade when they knew they were having financial problems. They started the ridiculous Metrojet carrier that every industry analyst said from the beginning would be a disaster. They competed directly with many of SWA's most popular routes without even attempting to reduce their cost structure. These are bad mgmt decisions. They were not the fault of labor. These are the reasons U is going bankrupt.

1. To make $25,000/month instead of $22,000/month, while only working 12 days or so a month.

2. Work rules that say if my vacation touches a trip, I'm displaced with no loss in pay. (I know guys at UAL who make over $20,000/ month a couple times year to not work at all, by bidding vacation that touches their trips.)

3. To have a double company fundedretirement plan? Why do we need a guaranteed A benefit funded by the company after we retire, and then a "B" benefit, funded by the company? Maybe it's becasue ALPA doesn't really care about the financially viability of the company...so they need a B fund just in case. With the money we make, shouldn't we be responsible for some of our own retirement?

ALPA is no longer "defending the poor, tired, over tasked laborer against the capitalist industrialists."

Most of us work less than half the month, at a job that's just not that tough, and our wages and benefits are better than just about any industry in America.

By being greedy, we have brought this on ourselves.

There are not that many of us only working 12 days a month and making $25k a month. Those are the very few people at the top of the seniority list. Five year captains at UAL are not getting anywhere near that kind of pay or those days off. After you have worked at an airline for 20 years I think you have earned the right to 18 days off and a good paycheck.

If you think that unions are destroying this industry, then go work for a non-union carrier and leave the rest of us alone.

And one more thing. Pick up a copy of Flying the Line Vols. 1 and 2. I think it might help you understand just how much ALPA has done for us in areas not just related to pay and benefits.

 

[JetPilot500]

Well said goldentrout.

A business is not a break-even venture. It is supposed to provide a profit to its owner or investors in return for their risked investment. As I said before, the airline does not exist just to make pilots millionairs.

I'm not saying we shouldn't make a good living, but we must be real here. Yes we do have a lot of responsibility, but you must admit, its a great career and the lifestyle is pretty great too.

Almost every employee at the airline is necessary. You don't hear fuelers demanding to be paid $100k per year do you? They could argue as well, "How can the company operate without us?" They are just as necessary as the pilots are.

If you keep acting like blue collar laborers, you will be treated as such. If you act as white collar professionals, you will be treated as such. Yes management is to blame as well. SWA is a perfect example of how a great CEO can affect the labor relations in such a positive way. It takes two to tango, and someone has to change first.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

And one more thing. Pick up a copy of Flying the Line Vols. 1 and 2. I think it might help you understand just how much ALPA has done for us in areas not just related to pay and benefits.

ALPA was necessary back in the day. And they are still necessay today in many ways. But things have changed. It's not the 1970's and 80's anymore. However, ALPA is continuing to squeeze management further and further...eventually something has to break. Wait and see. Eventually when the Airlines go broke, for what ever reasons, things will change. Eventually, the company will no longer be able to afford to pay you, even if the problem is due to something else.

You don't work for the airline, you work for the passengers. And the passengers have said they are not willing to pay the same amount they used to for you to fly them from point A to point B. Is that managements fault? No, it's the way the economy works. UAL could barely afford to pay the raises they HAD to give in to a few years ago, and that is when times were good! And now they definately can't afford them.

Teamwork, will help the airlines survive. And I think it's great to see the Pilots and FA's at united have agreed to some cuts...hopefully it will be enough.

JetPilot500

 

[CRJ200FO]

ALPA was necessary back in the day. And they are still necessay today in many ways. But things have changed. It's not the 1970's and 80's anymore. However, ALPA is continuing to squeeze management further and further...eventually something has to break. Wait and see. Eventually when the Airlines go broke, for what ever reasons, things will change. Eventually, the company will no longer be able to afford to pay you, even if the problem is due to something else.

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

You don't work for the airline, you work for the passengers. And the passengers have said they are not willing to pay the same amount they used to for you to fly them from point A to point B. Is that managements fault? No, it's the way the economy works. UAL could barely afford to pay the raises they HAD to give in to a few years ago, and that is when times were good! And now they definately can't afford them.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

 

[CRJ200FO]

crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade.

You can be a smart*ss all you want, but look at the facts. USAir is in chapter 11 with liquidation a possibility if things don't get better real quick, UAL is talking about a possible bankruptcy early next year, and AMR has begun talks with bankruptcy lawyers. NWA, DAL, and CAL are doing just slightly better, but they are still losing hundreds of millions of dollars quarterly. Obviously things are not good, and labor costs cannot account for the amounts of money being lost every month at these airlines. As I said, if U pilots agreed to work for FREE, U would still be in financial trouble. LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM! Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

 

[tdvalve]

"crj200fo,
That is the dumbest post I have read on this board. The free market won't work in the airlines. Thank you for enlightning me comrade."

Have to agree with your observation, jon210. Actually, we're seeing the free market working very well. The efficient carriers are prospering and the dinosaurs are sinking in the tarpit. The more scope clauses and antiquated work rules are employed, the more definite a grim fate for the big five.

 

[JetPilot500]

How exactly is ALPA squeezing these companies too hard? When inflation is taken into account you will find that pilots make LESS money than they did 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right. Our pay has been decreasing steadily during the past couple of decades. We had to squeeze just to keep up to the same pay we used to make.

I bet to differ. In fact, I would guess that 30 years ago, a 747 Captain was probally making around $85,000...that was a ton of money back in 1972. If that is the case, today he should be making $206,000 based on average inflation...not $320,000 which is what UAL pays (before concession). That far exceeds the average inflation rate...by about 50%.

No, people would be happy to pay $500 dollars for a ticket if they had to. It's better than a 10 hour drive. But when SWA is able to charge only $99 dollars for the same flight because of much lower labor costs, then that's where the pax are going to go. That was the beauty of regulation. The gov't allowed us to charge basically whatever it took to remain profitable on any given route, and we didn't have to worry that SWA or JBlue would be charging less. You can't operate this industry the same way other industry's are run. It will never work. If all of the current majors went out of business in 5 years, then the LCC's will just start pricing wars amoungst themselves and eventually they too will price themselves out of business. It's an endless cycle. It's time to revisit regulation. The free market doesn't work in the airline industry.

Oh geez, here we go with recommending regulation again. No people will not be willing to pay $500 for a ticket! In the last 9 months the airlines have been trying to squeeze up ticket prices. Everytime they do, its an average increase of $10 to $20. And everytime they do this, people stop buying tickets. So a jump from $99 to $500 is definately not gonna work overnight. It's a function of supply and demand. As price goes up, demand goes down. Restrict the supply, prices go up to, but you'll sell fewer tickets. Sell fewer tickets and less planes in the air.

For many people, travel is discressionary. If its too expensive, they just won't go. Even in these tough times, businesses are finding other ways of getting the job done if ticket prices are out of reach.

Look back to regulation. There were a lot few airline flights. Because ticket prices were fixed and not everyone could afford to fly. Flying was a luxury, most people were taking road trips to a summer cottage for vacation, not Jetting off to see Mickey Mouse. Flying has become something anyone could do. Bring back Regulation and forget about your RJ job. In fact, forget about probally half of the flying jobs out there. Capitalism is key in this country.

JetPilot500

 

[JetPilot500]

.....Deregulation started these troubles 2 decades ago. Braniff was the first to be subjected to the destructive powers of the free market on the airline business. Then EAL, then Pan Am, etc...

Deregulation and the free market are to blame for all this. Not pilot salaries.

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

 

[jon210]

crj200fo,
I would agree that labor is not at fault. I am sure the airlines that are doing very poorly have many different problems. This is the reason we should let the market decide who survives and not the govt. The ones that provide the best, safest service, at the best prices and remain profitable will survive. If a company can't make a profit we won't have to worry about how much we get paid for very long.

 

[JetPilot500]

LABOR IS NOT THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM!

Labor is not the only problem.

But if UAL, for example, could cut an average of $50k per pilot per year, that would equate to $500 Million (10,000 pilots) saved per year...make some cuts with other labor groups and guess what, now you're really saving some money.

$500 Million is no chump change!

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

JetPilot500

 

[banned username 2]

A $50,000 savings per pilot equates to about a $35,000 change in salary. So, a pilot making $185,000 now makes $150,000 after the change...BIG DEAL!

And a First Year Pilot currently making $35,000 will have to Pay $15,000 for his job after the change! It is just like Pay-For-Training but different!

DOH! Did I just say that out loud?!?!?!

(The above was intended as a joke, and in NO way intended to trigger yet another PFT debate... So before you start b!tching and moaning, sit back, laugh and walk away from your computer...)

 

[CRJ200FO]

If a company, any company, cannont survive in the Free Market, then there is something severely wrong with that company and/or the product they provide.

Not true. The LCC's are able to get through these hard economic times only because of their low labor costs. When SWA has to start paying thousands of employees their retirements here in few years, then they will eventually have to raise ticket prices in order to cover the cost. They don't have enough money stashed away to cover the retirement costs of all these employees. They will be in the same situation as the real majors are today.

When that happens, Spirit, AirTran, and the other LCC's that don't have as many retirement to pay off yet will be able to keep their prices low and SWA will begin to lose business. Granted, this is years down the road, but it will happen. As I said, it's a vicious cycle that regulation protected us from.