AirTran's training house

[Fedora]

Powel is still there? You poor souls.
I've seen him scared sh*tless on a line check with one of the safest pilots you have there. He later taunted the guy and had him fly V1 cuts with his chin on the glare shield in the sim. OK guy but one of the GOB's that made me leave AirTran. Fouteen months later I was an international widebody Captain who never looked back. I was one of the guys who did speak up and was blackballed by Souders for upgrade. It sounds like you have enough GOB's to still have a problem. Glad you still have guys like Unger to make a difference. I have no regrets, even though I'd be in the top 30 on the seniority list today. Everyone in my company's training department is there to help you through the program, not wash you out. (which happens when required BTW.)

 

[LR60BOY]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?
Beat me, whip me, make me write bad checks, hell it will be no different than being in trouble with the Mrs.
Guess I'll just have to study that much harder!

BTW- Great bunch of interviewers down there. Much thanks to Coach, Rich and Lindsey for making us all feel real welcome! Great experience whatever the out come....

Geez.....I'd like to just get an interview. My stuff was turned over a month ago.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Heyas,

Just my $0.02 having worked in training.

You will usually have a number of personality types working in training.

They are, in order of preference:

1) The "Good Sh!t". Cool guy all around, has his priorities straight and is a good stick to boot. Passes on the finer points and you learn a ton from this guy. It never seems like training/checking, but just a good conversation with your buddy about flying.

2) The "Burn Out". This guy is toast. He's been rode hard and put away wet from the industry, a bad marrage or both. He's instructing for the money and/or convienence, so don't expect him to spend any extra effort on you. But this guy HATES paperwork and hassle, so if you know your stuff, this guy can be an acceptable alternate. He will try to finish you up as fast as possible.

3) The "Remember When". Flew for North East Central Louisiana Airlines, and thinks it was the greatest thing since Christ. Spares no opportunity to go on about it, and on, and on, and on. Beyond telling you about how much better they did things there, this kook is mostly harmless. Do it his way, check the boxes, and exit as quickly as possible.

4) The "Company Man". Gung ho type. Has a mission, and is probably angling for some kind of management postion. His priorities are how good HE looks to his superiors, and if busting you does this, watch out. Expect to have the company line repeated over and over, so the best thing you can do is nod a lot. He MAY not be the sharpest tool in the shed, as the smart guys like this usually hook up with the safety or performance engineering side of the house.

5) The "Egotistical Weak Pilot". Watch out for this guy. He got in the training department because they were really desperate or his buddy is the training manager. Insecure and a weak stick, his mission is to berate EVERYONE in to submission as much as humanly possible. He plays mean and/or unrealistic tricks in the sim, and then hammers you about your skills and decision making despite the fact that you saved an almost unwinnable situation. He won't go back to the line because everyone calls in sick when they see him on the schedule. While the Company Man will bust you if it makes him look good, this guy will do it just for giggles. AVOID at all costs.

Anyone have any others to add?

Nu

Very good rundown.

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

Deleted

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Well guys, I don't really want to butt in on what seems to be a in-house issue, but maybe I can give you some ideas.

The "only checking" baloney has traumatized more than one pilot group. At our shop, I would have to repeat over and over again to the new hires during that "this is training, not checking, so don't worry about it", so it seems to be the industry norm, rather than the exception.

Generally, we had an outstanding instructor cadre. Most, if not all, of the "number 5s" were weeded out. The BEST thing you can do with these guys is to make sure there is a paperwork trail on them. Who ever needs to see it, like your unions training committee.

Like someone said, chances are if a particular d-bag has friends in the training department, he has friends in the union also. But keep the paper trail on him, because sooner or later, these d!cks always step on their crank in a major way (FAA trouble, lawsuit, sexual harrassment, etc), and you want the paperwork in line to hasten his departure, and make it VERY inconvienent for his friends to bail him out.

My $0.02...YMMV

Nu

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scabs... and Jean Luc what a piece of $hit

 

[Captzaahlie]

Capt Z,

Congrats on the interview. It's really not that bad. All of the instructors are great and you won't have any trouble. If anyone needs a little help they go out of their way. It's still a little old school but has improved light years. Like some guys have said, a lot of checking and not so much training after initial.

New hire pass rates are probably 99% and the upgrades at least 90%. Just like anywhere, be prepared and have a good attitude. See you on the line.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've heard all the same stories, but I didn't experience any of it during training. Yeah, one instructor I had talked a lot about how things were at EAL, but that doesn't really bother me. He still got the instruction done, and I heard some interesting stories. The checkairman was more than fair. I'm sure there's a few guys in the department that fit the descriptions above, but I never ran into them, so you're chances of getting them are probably pretty low. Just relax, study, and you'll be fine.

Labatt & PCL,
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. (Sorry to post to both you guys in one shot.) In all honesty I'm not really shaking in my boots. I just wanted to hear and join in on the horror stories, we have them too. Seems like they are worst when people either don't mesh or someone is not prepared.... not just pilots......sh1t I've seen instructors than can't push buttons on a sim panel to save their asses.... it's hard not to laugh and let out a little check ride stress when it happens too .Personally I'm more wound up waiting for the frigging phone to ring than I think I'll be during the sim stuff. As sick as it sounds I actually like simulators (when things are going my way of course you can learn some damn cool stuff in them. Memorizing hundreds of keystrokes to program a demanding FMS might give me a head ache at first, but if there's any logic to it at all that will be interesting too. EVERYONE that I met on campus, not just instructors but even new hires and dudes in for upgrade/recurrent were friendly enough to stop by our group of interviewees and offer words of encouragement and/or answer questions about training or the sims! Now either you guys need additional pilots bad to have your weekend barbecues uninterrupted or your group of employees are all just a bunch of pretty decent guys....... I'll bet the latter from knowing about a dozen people there! Looking so forward to getting the call and joining the club. No worries about being part of the 99% that get through training. I have another half that enjoys the finer things in life (like I don't as well...) and a couple kids that will need to be put through college in about 14 years......talk about an incentive to do well..........!
One of em needs a bottle so the rambling will stop, you guys can thank a 10 month old.

Take care,
Capt Z.

 

[IAHERJ]

Although I had good luck with the training department at AAI, much of what has been said above is true. I saw it first hand as my sim partner
didn't make it through and the instructors openly talked about him to me and others around the school house. A very good friend was treated like crap by one of the above mentioned "instructors" when he upgraded. He had to go to another guy(great 717 guru who is very popular) to get some training and retake his ride. He is a strong pilot but wasn't "forceful enough" according to the jerk already mentioned above.
I left for CAL and went through one of the best training environments I have ever seen on the 737 there. They were so laid back yet taught you 5 versions of the 737 in a month and had you prepared for the line. The 757/767 program was even better with every single instructor being predictable a
nd on your side. I have never seen anything like it.
I don't know what the answer for AirTran is regarding training. These guys are considered "heroes" around the company and are seemingly untouchable. Granted for a while during the late 90's they had to train the way they did and weed people out but today's AirTran new hires are highly qualified and competant and don't need to "earn respect" by being hazed in the simulator. Just my thoughts...

IAHERJ

 

[jmreii]

Heyas,

Just my $0.02 having worked in training.

You will usually have a number of personality types working in training.

They are, in order of preference:

1) The "Good Sh!t". Cool guy all around, has his priorities straight and is a good stick to boot. Passes on the finer points and you learn a ton from this guy. It never seems like training/checking, but just a good conversation with your buddy about flying.

2) The "Burn Out". This guy is toast. He's been rode hard and put away wet from the industry, a bad marrage or both. He's instructing for the money and/or convienence, so don't expect him to spend any extra effort on you. But this guy HATES paperwork and hassle, so if you know your stuff, this guy can be an acceptable alternate. He will try to finish you up as fast as possible.

3) The "Remember When". Flew for North East Central Louisiana Airlines, and thinks it was the greatest thing since Christ. Spares no opportunity to go on about it, and on, and on, and on. Beyond telling you about how much better they did things there, this kook is mostly harmless. Do it his way, check the boxes, and exit as quickly as possible.

4) The "Company Man". Gung ho type. Has a mission, and is probably angling for some kind of management postion. His priorities are how good HE looks to his superiors, and if busting you does this, watch out. Expect to have the company line repeated over and over, so the best thing you can do is nod a lot. He MAY not be the sharpest tool in the shed, as the smart guys like this usually hook up with the safety or performance engineering side of the house.

5) The "Egotistical Weak Pilot". Watch out for this guy. He got in the training department because they were really desperate or his buddy is the training manager. Insecure and a weak stick, his mission is to berate EVERYONE in to submission as much as humanly possible. He plays mean and/or unrealistic tricks in the sim, and then hammers you about your skills and decision making despite the fact that you saved an almost unwinnable situation. He won't go back to the line because everyone calls in sick when they see him on the schedule. While the Company Man will bust you if it makes him look good, this guy will do it just for giggles. AVOID at all costs.

Anyone have any others to add?

Nu

I guess I am naive, I thought you mainly see that type of training at the commuters/regional and part 135 opertors. Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[NuGuy]

I guess I am naive, I thought you mainly see that type of training at the commuters/regional and part 135 opertors. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Heyas Jm,

As I said in another post, the training department at my current shop (a major) is the best I've ever experienced. Most of our guys are #1s with a few #2s.

Most of the other guys have been weeded out a long time ago. Our shop emphasizes training, not checking, with a clear delination between the two. The department listens to the pilots and ALPA, and those d-bags that slip through are a$$-canned ASAP.

The one thing that is important is you have to have LINE pilots manage or oversee the training programs. Everytime I've seen kiwi types (ground instructors) try to run things, it becomes a huge pissing contest.


Nu

 

[noperf]

Things never change. The first time I rode on a jumpseat on a major US carrier, about 25 years ago, I said to the pilots something to this effect.........well at least you get training. They both started laughing. Then the Captain said no we get checking.

 

[FlyWolf]

The best thing that can happen to this training dept is that the Midwest training dept take over the 717 side (and eventually the 737) after the merger. Then you will see what training with professionalism and total respect means. All check airmen are current line pilots, truly a great bunch of guys.

From what I keep hearing on the line here at Midex over and over again is how bad the Airtran training dept. is. This thread is confirming what we keep hearing here.

 

[Ty Webb]

Midwest invented the term "Punitive Upgrade"

The best thing that can happen to this training dept is that the Midwest training dept take over the 717 side (and eventually the 737) after the merger. Then you will see what training with professionalism and total respect means.

Duuuuhhhhhh . . . .

Could you have possibly posted something more stupid?

Hmmm . . . let's see . . . . "I don't know anything for certain about AirTran's training dept other than what I read on flightinfo, and some rumors on line, but I have already decided that our Training Dept. is superior, so let's junk AirTran's. . . . ".

That about the size of it?

I guess you haven't been at Midex long enough to remember when their training dept had worse complaints against it . . . . I believe the term in use at the time was "Punitive Upgrade".


"We now return you to the previous poster's idiocy . . . . ."

 

[jmreii]

Heyas Jm,

As I said in another post, the training department at my current shop (a major) is the best I've ever experienced. Most of our guys are #1s with a few #2s.

Most of the other guys have been weeded out a long time ago. Our shop emphasizes training, not checking, with a clear delination between the two. The department listens to the pilots and ALPA, and those d-bags that slip through are a$$-canned ASAP.

The one thing that is important is you have to have LINE pilots manage or oversee the training programs. Everytime I've seen kiwi types (ground instructors) try to run things, it becomes a huge pissing contest.


Nu

Hey thanks for the note, I do realize there are a couple of carriers out there that do a really fantastic job of training their people. I hope they continue to set the mold for everyone else to follow.

 

[Uppercrust]

Geez.....I'd like to just get an interview. My stuff was turned over a month ago.

Really??

 

[Texan2IP]

BTW- Great bunch of interviewers down there. Much thanks to Coach, Rich and Lindsey for making us all feel real welcome! Great experience whatever the out come....

Just don't count on coach to be of any help at all when you hit the line. He is on the corporate welfare train, big time. Coach contributes absolutely nothing to AirTran, nothing but hate and discontent.

 

[FIREMAN]

Just don't count on coach to be of any help at all when you hit the line. He is on the corporate welfare train, big time. Coach contributes absolutely nothing to AirTran, nothing but hate and discontent.

I never had a problem with coach. He backed me up on every issue I had on the 717, even with a very senior check airman and an upper management guy. Never had a problem calling in or getting off a trip.
If you are wrong or try to work the system (SAP 3) he will call you on it.

 

[Max Powers]

I never had a problem with coach. He backed me up on every issue I had on the 717, even with a very senior check airman and an upper management guy. Never had a problem calling in or getting off a trip.
If you are wrong or try to work the system (SAP 3) he will call you on it.

Never had any dealings with the man....But my buddy flying said he was out on the line and went into all the planes sitting at the gates including his to look for an anti-TA stickers......He said it made him want to vote no even more!!!!

 

[717capt]

Just my .02 on this guys.

Using a persons real name on this forum is way uncool.

It's been my experience that usually most people that think a particular person in the training department is a d!ckhead, they themselves more than likely have had training problems.

As far as weeding out the old Eastern guys that are in the training department, my response is:
Yeah good luck with that.... let me know how it works out for ya...

Don't let anyone get you down. The instructors in the training department are overall good guys, there is truth to the fact that they tend to gossip like old ladys and that is very unprofessional, but it is what it is.

These guys are still instructing / employeed at airtran for one reason and one reason only...... because it costs the company $60,000 per year for them vs $160,000 for me... thats it..... no more... end of story....

 

[Texan2IP]

It's been my experience that usually most people that think a particular person in the training department is a d!ckhead, they themselves more than likely have had training problems.

Isn't that the way it always is, dumb followers/students, God forbid we question the leaders/instructors.

I have seen a turn for the better in that training house, but they have a long way to go. Adding instructors like M.B., and I don't mean the little Napoleon, is a big step in the right direction. There is much work to do yet, but the old Eastern guys CAN be put out to pasture, if you set your mind too it.

Now if you can only get the pilot group together on something!

 

[CitationLover]

Now if you can only get the pilot group together on something!

yes yes no will get the pilot group together. good luck trannies!

 

[Spidey]

...what a great country we live in...don't evaluate when yer s'posed to teach and don't teach when yer s'posed to evaluate...and techniques are techniques...and procedures are procedures...and who cares who or what you were before...bein a good pilot at AirTran is cool...takes a lil studying in training and from there on...if ya wanna be better than mediocre...

 

[MGT3]

Secret to our "training" department:

Show up over-prepared, knod a lot, bite tongue often.

There are good guys here and not so good guys, but there is a severe lack of what I would call training here and it has led to some our problems (whats that loud irritating horn going off as we barrel down the runway on takeoff roll?) Learn everything you can from the check airmen you run into, because you won't be learning much beyond what is needed to get through your checkride at the schoolhouse.

And go 73

GT

 

[Uppercrust]

I never had a problem with coach. He backed me up on every issue I had on the 717, even with a very senior check airman and an upper management guy. Never had a problem calling in or getting off a trip.
If you are wrong or try to work the system (SAP 3) he will call you on it.

Did coach scab?

 

[j41driver]

Did coach scab?

DING, DING, DING!!!!

 

[USARET]

Going through training at the "Tranny" is like being in a herd of gazelles running across the Serengeti, you're fine as long as you stay with the herd, fall behind.... well, we've all seen Animal Planet!

 

[bestpilot]

Going through training at the "Tranny" is like being in a herd of gazelles running across the Serengeti, you're fine as long as you stay with the herd, fall behind.... well, we've all seen Animal Planet!

Dude! If ya gets behind dem gezelles it like freaaaking stinks!!! But Ole Ty Guy sayz it be like smellin like hiz hunnies from Vegaz!!!!!

Tru Dat, Ty Guy, freaaking tru!

 

[RadioClash]

......takes a lil studying in training and from there on...if ya wanna be better than mediocre...

This is true until you show up for your "interrogation" . Then the little french man has ways of making you talk...

 

[Spidey]

This is true until you show up for your "interrogation" . Then the little french man has ways of making you talk...

-don't tell me that a Marine is going to let that rattle him-

 

[newnan]

Going through training at the "Tranny" is like being in a herd of gazelles running across the Serengeti, you're fine as long as you stay with the herd, fall behind.... well, we've all seen Animal Planet!

You pretty much just have to be faster than the slowest one.