AirTran's training house

[AppBrookie]

You guys are posting my sentiments exactly for the last few years.
This is my 5th uniform in the closet and 5 types and I have never seen anything like this place.

At a couple of my previous companies(major and regional) we would do a PC then 6 months later a PT LOFT then repeat. I most especially liked the LOFTs, what a great LEARNING tool... scenarios that really make you think, CRM, etc..
I asked a Sim Check Airman why we don't do it this way at da tran explaining the above. His answer:
"You do ONE loft after initial training, you do not need it again, we are here to evaluate not for learning" That sums it up guys!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a little bit of check airman experience at a regional, our Dir. of Training(great guy) once told us in a meeting: Treat our line pilots like they are your customers and you are the owner of the business.....Respect
Some of the training folks are so stuck in the 50's mentality that they could never fathom this and I'm not necessarily talking about the older ones.

 

[SoCentralRain]

What? They aren't supposed to yell and scream. I thought everyone trained like that.

Must have been a Laker. Us GLA alums know all about this.

Kinda too bad. But when we got past these jagnuts, we did know our stuff.

That said, it doesn't have to be this way. Sorry to hear that's how da Tranny "trains."

SCR

 

[labatt]

Must have been a Laker. Us GLA alums know all about this.

Kinda too bad. But when we got past these jagnuts, we did know our stuff.

That said, it doesn't have to be this way. Sorry to hear that's how da Tranny "trains."

SCR

I was kidding of course, but yea....I was a Laker. I miss those days training when it was 100' and a 1/4 at 0400 in the old ott 2. You are right as well that we knew our stuff and were pretty good sticks.

 

[airline#5]

When it comes to training there is way too much talk about "...and that is how stupid this guy was." I don't believe that with this or any other pilot group I've known. Unfortunately, these story's make there way to the cockpit. If you're paired with someone who likes to spread this crap, don't trust he who revels in ones supposed shortcomings.

 

[Pancho]

Many of us have encouraged the union to help the company fix the schoolhouse problems with some very specific language in the new ta and with a training committee that actually has some fangs. I suspected we were completely ignored and had confirmation when the ta came out, only saying that the old-timers were now a protected class of citizen. In a previous life we had excellent language in our contract that dictated specifically who could train/check and what the training/checking guys could and could not get away with. This led to a very low stress learning environment that in turn led to an extremely safe operating environment. Seemingly, most important of all to this management team it kept our training costs low. I would love to know what all of the games being played at the school house really cost the company. I suspect our management either has no idea or enjoys the heavy hand these guys wield. The easiest way to control a pilot group is through the training dept. AP being old Eastern himself has no understanding about the threats and intimidation the rest of us non-Eastern line swine endure at the school house. I am tired of hearing about how all of these foqa (sp?) events are the result of incompetent pilots that the company hired back in the bad old days. Almost anybody can be trained to proficiency, but this of course requires somebody to actually train. When I look at our union committee roster and see an age 60 committee and no training committee it sums up our unions' priority's nicely.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

well it sounds like we will be cleaning house in our union pretty soon. Hopefully whoever steps up will put in end to the (BECAUSE THATS THE WAY WE DID IT AT EASTERN, GROUP). Must of been a great place to work.
I heard one instructor is so old that he drools on himself during TRN. NICE!!!

 

[Av8tor]

intimidate......evaluate is the motto at the training center!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?
Beat me, whip me, make me write bad checks, hell it will be no different than being in trouble with the Mrs.
Guess I'll just have to study that much harder!

BTW- Great bunch of interviewers down there. Much thanks to Coach, Rich and Lindsey for making us all feel real welcome! Great experience whatever the out come....

 

[PCL_128]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've heard all the same stories, but I didn't experience any of it during training. Yeah, one instructor I had talked a lot about how things were at EAL, but that doesn't really bother me. He still got the instruction done, and I heard some interesting stories. The checkairman was more than fair. I'm sure there's a few guys in the department that fit the descriptions above, but I never ran into them, so you're chances of getting them are probably pretty low. Just relax, study, and you'll be fine.

 

[labatt]

Capt Z,

Congrats on the interview. It's really not that bad. All of the instructors are great and you won't have any trouble. If anyone needs a little help they go out of their way. It's still a little old school but has improved light years. Like some guys have said, a lot of checking and not so much training after initial.

New hire pass rates are probably 99% and the upgrades at least 90%. Just like anywhere, be prepared and have a good attitude. See you on the line.

 

[Fedora]

Powel is still there? You poor souls.
I've seen him scared sh*tless on a line check with one of the safest pilots you have there. He later taunted the guy and had him fly V1 cuts with his chin on the glare shield in the sim. OK guy but one of the GOB's that made me leave AirTran. Fouteen months later I was an international widebody Captain who never looked back. I was one of the guys who did speak up and was blackballed by Souders for upgrade. It sounds like you have enough GOB's to still have a problem. Glad you still have guys like Unger to make a difference. I have no regrets, even though I'd be in the top 30 on the seniority list today. Everyone in my company's training department is there to help you through the program, not wash you out. (which happens when required BTW.)

 

[LR60BOY]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?
Beat me, whip me, make me write bad checks, hell it will be no different than being in trouble with the Mrs.
Guess I'll just have to study that much harder!

BTW- Great bunch of interviewers down there. Much thanks to Coach, Rich and Lindsey for making us all feel real welcome! Great experience whatever the out come....

Geez.....I'd like to just get an interview. My stuff was turned over a month ago.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Heyas,

Just my $0.02 having worked in training.

You will usually have a number of personality types working in training.

They are, in order of preference:

1) The "Good Sh!t". Cool guy all around, has his priorities straight and is a good stick to boot. Passes on the finer points and you learn a ton from this guy. It never seems like training/checking, but just a good conversation with your buddy about flying.

2) The "Burn Out". This guy is toast. He's been rode hard and put away wet from the industry, a bad marrage or both. He's instructing for the money and/or convienence, so don't expect him to spend any extra effort on you. But this guy HATES paperwork and hassle, so if you know your stuff, this guy can be an acceptable alternate. He will try to finish you up as fast as possible.

3) The "Remember When". Flew for North East Central Louisiana Airlines, and thinks it was the greatest thing since Christ. Spares no opportunity to go on about it, and on, and on, and on. Beyond telling you about how much better they did things there, this kook is mostly harmless. Do it his way, check the boxes, and exit as quickly as possible.

4) The "Company Man". Gung ho type. Has a mission, and is probably angling for some kind of management postion. His priorities are how good HE looks to his superiors, and if busting you does this, watch out. Expect to have the company line repeated over and over, so the best thing you can do is nod a lot. He MAY not be the sharpest tool in the shed, as the smart guys like this usually hook up with the safety or performance engineering side of the house.

5) The "Egotistical Weak Pilot". Watch out for this guy. He got in the training department because they were really desperate or his buddy is the training manager. Insecure and a weak stick, his mission is to berate EVERYONE in to submission as much as humanly possible. He plays mean and/or unrealistic tricks in the sim, and then hammers you about your skills and decision making despite the fact that you saved an almost unwinnable situation. He won't go back to the line because everyone calls in sick when they see him on the schedule. While the Company Man will bust you if it makes him look good, this guy will do it just for giggles. AVOID at all costs.

Anyone have any others to add?

Nu

Very good rundown.

 

[PRINCE AKEEM]

Deleted

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Well guys, I don't really want to butt in on what seems to be a in-house issue, but maybe I can give you some ideas.

The "only checking" baloney has traumatized more than one pilot group. At our shop, I would have to repeat over and over again to the new hires during that "this is training, not checking, so don't worry about it", so it seems to be the industry norm, rather than the exception.

Generally, we had an outstanding instructor cadre. Most, if not all, of the "number 5s" were weeded out. The BEST thing you can do with these guys is to make sure there is a paperwork trail on them. Who ever needs to see it, like your unions training committee.

Like someone said, chances are if a particular d-bag has friends in the training department, he has friends in the union also. But keep the paper trail on him, because sooner or later, these d!cks always step on their crank in a major way (FAA trouble, lawsuit, sexual harrassment, etc), and you want the paperwork in line to hasten his departure, and make it VERY inconvienent for his friends to bail him out.

My $0.02...YMMV

Nu

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Scabs... and Jean Luc what a piece of $hit

 

[Captzaahlie]

Capt Z,

Congrats on the interview. It's really not that bad. All of the instructors are great and you won't have any trouble. If anyone needs a little help they go out of their way. It's still a little old school but has improved light years. Like some guys have said, a lot of checking and not so much training after initial.

New hire pass rates are probably 99% and the upgrades at least 90%. Just like anywhere, be prepared and have a good attitude. See you on the line.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've heard all the same stories, but I didn't experience any of it during training. Yeah, one instructor I had talked a lot about how things were at EAL, but that doesn't really bother me. He still got the instruction done, and I heard some interesting stories. The checkairman was more than fair. I'm sure there's a few guys in the department that fit the descriptions above, but I never ran into them, so you're chances of getting them are probably pretty low. Just relax, study, and you'll be fine.

Labatt & PCL,
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement. (Sorry to post to both you guys in one shot.) In all honesty I'm not really shaking in my boots. I just wanted to hear and join in on the horror stories, we have them too. Seems like they are worst when people either don't mesh or someone is not prepared.... not just pilots......sh1t I've seen instructors than can't push buttons on a sim panel to save their asses.... it's hard not to laugh and let out a little check ride stress when it happens too .Personally I'm more wound up waiting for the frigging phone to ring than I think I'll be during the sim stuff. As sick as it sounds I actually like simulators (when things are going my way of course you can learn some damn cool stuff in them. Memorizing hundreds of keystrokes to program a demanding FMS might give me a head ache at first, but if there's any logic to it at all that will be interesting too. EVERYONE that I met on campus, not just instructors but even new hires and dudes in for upgrade/recurrent were friendly enough to stop by our group of interviewees and offer words of encouragement and/or answer questions about training or the sims! Now either you guys need additional pilots bad to have your weekend barbecues uninterrupted or your group of employees are all just a bunch of pretty decent guys....... I'll bet the latter from knowing about a dozen people there! Looking so forward to getting the call and joining the club. No worries about being part of the 99% that get through training. I have another half that enjoys the finer things in life (like I don't as well...) and a couple kids that will need to be put through college in about 14 years......talk about an incentive to do well..........!
One of em needs a bottle so the rambling will stop, you guys can thank a 10 month old.

Take care,
Capt Z.

 

[IAHERJ]

Although I had good luck with the training department at AAI, much of what has been said above is true. I saw it first hand as my sim partner
didn't make it through and the instructors openly talked about him to me and others around the school house. A very good friend was treated like crap by one of the above mentioned "instructors" when he upgraded. He had to go to another guy(great 717 guru who is very popular) to get some training and retake his ride. He is a strong pilot but wasn't "forceful enough" according to the jerk already mentioned above.
I left for CAL and went through one of the best training environments I have ever seen on the 737 there. They were so laid back yet taught you 5 versions of the 737 in a month and had you prepared for the line. The 757/767 program was even better with every single instructor being predictable a
nd on your side. I have never seen anything like it.
I don't know what the answer for AirTran is regarding training. These guys are considered "heroes" around the company and are seemingly untouchable. Granted for a while during the late 90's they had to train the way they did and weed people out but today's AirTran new hires are highly qualified and competant and don't need to "earn respect" by being hazed in the simulator. Just my thoughts...

IAHERJ

 

[jmreii]

Heyas,

Just my $0.02 having worked in training.

You will usually have a number of personality types working in training.

They are, in order of preference:

1) The "Good Sh!t". Cool guy all around, has his priorities straight and is a good stick to boot. Passes on the finer points and you learn a ton from this guy. It never seems like training/checking, but just a good conversation with your buddy about flying.

2) The "Burn Out". This guy is toast. He's been rode hard and put away wet from the industry, a bad marrage or both. He's instructing for the money and/or convienence, so don't expect him to spend any extra effort on you. But this guy HATES paperwork and hassle, so if you know your stuff, this guy can be an acceptable alternate. He will try to finish you up as fast as possible.

3) The "Remember When". Flew for North East Central Louisiana Airlines, and thinks it was the greatest thing since Christ. Spares no opportunity to go on about it, and on, and on, and on. Beyond telling you about how much better they did things there, this kook is mostly harmless. Do it his way, check the boxes, and exit as quickly as possible.

4) The "Company Man". Gung ho type. Has a mission, and is probably angling for some kind of management postion. His priorities are how good HE looks to his superiors, and if busting you does this, watch out. Expect to have the company line repeated over and over, so the best thing you can do is nod a lot. He MAY not be the sharpest tool in the shed, as the smart guys like this usually hook up with the safety or performance engineering side of the house.

5) The "Egotistical Weak Pilot". Watch out for this guy. He got in the training department because they were really desperate or his buddy is the training manager. Insecure and a weak stick, his mission is to berate EVERYONE in to submission as much as humanly possible. He plays mean and/or unrealistic tricks in the sim, and then hammers you about your skills and decision making despite the fact that you saved an almost unwinnable situation. He won't go back to the line because everyone calls in sick when they see him on the schedule. While the Company Man will bust you if it makes him look good, this guy will do it just for giggles. AVOID at all costs.

Anyone have any others to add?

Nu

I guess I am naive, I thought you mainly see that type of training at the commuters/regional and part 135 opertors. Thanks for the enlightenment.

 

[NuGuy]

I guess I am naive, I thought you mainly see that type of training at the commuters/regional and part 135 opertors. Thanks for the enlightenment.

Heyas Jm,

As I said in another post, the training department at my current shop (a major) is the best I've ever experienced. Most of our guys are #1s with a few #2s.

Most of the other guys have been weeded out a long time ago. Our shop emphasizes training, not checking, with a clear delination between the two. The department listens to the pilots and ALPA, and those d-bags that slip through are a$$-canned ASAP.

The one thing that is important is you have to have LINE pilots manage or oversee the training programs. Everytime I've seen kiwi types (ground instructors) try to run things, it becomes a huge pissing contest.


Nu