AirTran's training house

[Max Powers]

Most people who go through training at DaTranny do so quickly and easily without any sort of problems. But there is a minority perhaps 25 percent who get a bad instructor or check-airman who are then tortured with abrasive type teaching and/or over zealous checking.

Do you have a story to tell?

If so I want to hear.

I love working for AirTran because of our savvy leaders and fun to fly with pilots - but these experiences that people have faced need to end. It is not acceptable to yell at someone or swear at them on their first sim ride telling them they are no good. That will only create a poor environment for learning and set up said student for failure.

We need professionals with a solid background teaching us at AirTran. We need to stop teaching a reactionary type of flying. Look... when an engine fails you don't have to secure it, call atc, brief your FA and Co-pilot, scratch your nuts all in 1.4598 seconds. Take your time smoke a stogy and then make a sound decision that you know is the correct one. How can you do that if someone is kicking your seat and yelling at you.

Maybe I'm the only who looks at the training center and thinks.....nice decent hard working and experienced folks but A FEW have egos and tempers so big that it interferes with the give and take training should accompany and has kept our training dept a CHECKING DEPARTMENT.

There is so much more to be said about this feel free to PM me or put your story here.... maybe some of our leaders will take notice! Or perhaps the problem is over exaggerated and my conclusions and experiences are incorrect.

If you share your story I am going to copy and send these story to the Admin at FL. So perhaps WE you can make a difference and implement change. Please keep your response professional and constructive. I will delete any screen names and keep everything anonymous.

Thanks

 

[Lear70]

Depends on how the engine fails.

If a TR comes out on this airplane just after V1, you don't have a lot of time to think about it. These aren't cascade vane T/R's, they're Dee-Howard type buckets that are an UNBELIEVABLE amount of drag.

Other than the basics (keep it flying), I agree there's time to figure stuff out.

I also don't hear of that many people who have it that rough. I was ready to beat my instructor over the head once or twice in the sim, but made it through without any kicking, swearing, or brow-beating from him.

Maybe I've just been lucky...

 

[Max Powers]

Damn Lear your fast I just posted that. And yes some experiences require fast reactions and action: smoke TR deploy etc. But 99.9% don't. I hope your right and I'm glad you had a good experience we all want to beat our instructors a few times.

Lately though I have made several recommends and a few of these were treated badly after being hired and I want to see what others say. Thanks for the feed back.

 

[Lear70]

Sitting here at home. Screwed up my shoulder and back climbing into a cargo bin to retrieve a stroller last week...

Finally gave up on Advil and started taking the leftover prescription stuff from a surgery 2 years ago. Too loopy to drive and leave the house.

Have nothing better to do, watched all my movies I hadn't seen recently, wife and kids are at work/school.

Kinda bored actually, wish I was at work.

 

[CitationLover]

Kinda bored actually, wish I was at work.

Enjoy the time away! What's the latest with the TA?

 

[Lear70]

Hard to enjoy when you can barely turn your head without it hurting, but I'll try...

The BoD was meeting on it today. Have no idea if they're still in session or not. They've had the T.A. since the weekend, and we're getting conflicted information of what's in it.

I'm expecting a blast email tomorrow morning with the T.A. posted on the website in PDF format, with voting opening on Monday for 21 days.

My guess is it's going to have a "neutral" recommendation from the BoD, with at least one or two BoD members having a "reject" stance.

Could be completely wrong... we'll discuss it in the other thread.

Back to the training thing... has anyone seriously had honest-to-God experiences that bad?

 

[RadioClash]

All I am going to say is on the 717 side of the house, we are not at Eastern, we are not flying a DC-9, I could care less how you did it at Eastern, I don't care that you rode the panel for 10 years then the right seat for 18 years, you had to do the walkaround in short sleeves, in blowing snow, uphill both ways, I really don't care. Did I mention that we are not at Eastern? I say clean house, get line pilots in there that are in touch with reality and this century and decade and I don't mean the one that is a reserve police officer/sheriff Shaq type guy in FLL.

I have been around the block a few times myself, I may be an FO here but I have been a 121 captain, treat me as a professional and not some wet behind the ears, never flown 121 pic etc.

Its not all of the 717 training dept, just a few guys in there that want to make it miserable for everyone else.


Other than that, I am having a great time at AirTran.

 

[Max Powers]

Lear get back to your shoulder stop hijacking my thread. I got one story PM'd

 

[Lear70]

Hey, I'm the one who put the thread back on track.

Bite me.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Just my $0.02 having worked in training.

You will usually have a number of personality types working in training.

They are, in order of preference:

1) The "Good Sh!t". Cool guy all around, has his priorities straight and is a good stick to boot. Passes on the finer points and you learn a ton from this guy. It never seems like training/checking, but just a good conversation with your buddy about flying.

2) The "Burn Out". This guy is toast. He's been rode hard and put away wet from the industry, a bad marrage or both. He's instructing for the money and/or convienence, so don't expect him to spend any extra effort on you. But this guy HATES paperwork and hassle, so if you know your stuff, this guy can be an acceptable alternate. He will try to finish you up as fast as possible.

3) The "Remember When". Flew for North East Central Louisiana Airlines, and thinks it was the greatest thing since Christ. Spares no opportunity to go on about it, and on, and on, and on. Beyond telling you about how much better they did things there, this kook is mostly harmless. Do it his way, check the boxes, and exit as quickly as possible.

4) The "Company Man". Gung ho type. Has a mission, and is probably angling for some kind of management postion. His priorities are how good HE looks to his superiors, and if busting you does this, watch out. Expect to have the company line repeated over and over, so the best thing you can do is nod a lot. He MAY not be the sharpest tool in the shed, as the smart guys like this usually hook up with the safety or performance engineering side of the house.

5) The "Egotistical Weak Pilot". Watch out for this guy. He got in the training department because they were really desperate or his buddy is the training manager. Insecure and a weak stick, his mission is to berate EVERYONE in to submission as much as humanly possible. He plays mean and/or unrealistic tricks in the sim, and then hammers you about your skills and decision making despite the fact that you saved an almost unwinnable situation. He won't go back to the line because everyone calls in sick when they see him on the schedule. While the Company Man will bust you if it makes him look good, this guy will do it just for giggles. AVOID at all costs.

Anyone have any others to add?

Nu

 

[Max Powers]

Nicely summed and hilariously true - especially number 5 and 3 at datranny

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, #3 sounds really familiar somehow... LOL

 

[Steeler Fan]

Sorry about your shoulder, Lear. I hope you get well soon.

 

[CitationLover]

i have heard stories from our pilots / instructors hearing some AAI instructors yell at their students in brief/debriefs down in ATL.

 

[labatt]

What? They aren't supposed to yell and scream. I thought everyone trained like that.

 

[Critter717]

They need to get rid of the Medicare bridge program. Doug Powell has a massive ego. This will only get worse.

What's wrong with a plain vanilla recurrent check? Dick Unger and and the recently retired Jeff Sewell had it down. Honest, straight shooters, no head games...and FAIR!

It should be training instead of evaluate and fail.

 

[md83drvr]

This one time, at band camp...

The training dept does not train, they evaluate. Most guys there have a vast amount of knowledge, just the way it is presented is less than ideal.

Most orals/rides are just to prove the instructors know more than the individual(s) taking the ride.

We have been very lucky with some recent events, eventually our luck is going to run out. The automation and absurd amount of callouts will not save an a/c. Unfortunately we do not train pilots to fly the 717/37, we only train how to manage the automation. What will happen when that automation fails?

While there are problems with certain instructors/check airmen there is a deeper problem with the culture at the airline.

 

[labatt]

MD83,

You just hit the nail on the head. Best AAI post I have read anywhere. I think the boys in the training department are starting to figure out exactly what you mention. What they'll do about it, who knows? Probably nothing unfortunately.

 

[easydoesit]

I had a buddy who busted his checkride a few days before my ride(new hire). It was with Door #3 above. When I went into take my ride with the same guy, I was told about how my buddy was an "idiot" and about all the mistakes he made. He did not know I had been friends with the guy for years. I kept my mouth shut although it was very hard to do.

These guys have to go. They teach and check so old school, I feel like I am getting trained by my great grandpa, and I'm no spring chicken...

 

[Max Powers]

Easydoes it I had same experience.......The thing is this poor guy had an instructor that berated him at every mistake and completely shot his confidence which in turn killed his performance anyways I got an earful about how he was a complete idiot when the opposite is the case. I kept my mouth shut and regret it somewhat.

I guess it is more important that we remember "monitor radar display" and that there is a blue dot at 10 and 2 o'clock and yellow red at 8 and 4 o'clock for a tcas test etc etc than actual know how to fly and understand the QRH.

 

[AppBrookie]

You guys are posting my sentiments exactly for the last few years.
This is my 5th uniform in the closet and 5 types and I have never seen anything like this place.

At a couple of my previous companies(major and regional) we would do a PC then 6 months later a PT LOFT then repeat. I most especially liked the LOFTs, what a great LEARNING tool... scenarios that really make you think, CRM, etc..
I asked a Sim Check Airman why we don't do it this way at da tran explaining the above. His answer:
"You do ONE loft after initial training, you do not need it again, we are here to evaluate not for learning" That sums it up guys!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a little bit of check airman experience at a regional, our Dir. of Training(great guy) once told us in a meeting: Treat our line pilots like they are your customers and you are the owner of the business.....Respect
Some of the training folks are so stuck in the 50's mentality that they could never fathom this and I'm not necessarily talking about the older ones.

 

[SoCentralRain]

What? They aren't supposed to yell and scream. I thought everyone trained like that.

Must have been a Laker. Us GLA alums know all about this.

Kinda too bad. But when we got past these jagnuts, we did know our stuff.

That said, it doesn't have to be this way. Sorry to hear that's how da Tranny "trains."

SCR

 

[labatt]

Must have been a Laker. Us GLA alums know all about this.

Kinda too bad. But when we got past these jagnuts, we did know our stuff.

That said, it doesn't have to be this way. Sorry to hear that's how da Tranny "trains."

SCR

I was kidding of course, but yea....I was a Laker. I miss those days training when it was 100' and a 1/4 at 0400 in the old ott 2. You are right as well that we knew our stuff and were pretty good sticks.

 

[airline#5]

When it comes to training there is way too much talk about "...and that is how stupid this guy was." I don't believe that with this or any other pilot group I've known. Unfortunately, these story's make there way to the cockpit. If you're paired with someone who likes to spread this crap, don't trust he who revels in ones supposed shortcomings.

 

[Pancho]

Many of us have encouraged the union to help the company fix the schoolhouse problems with some very specific language in the new ta and with a training committee that actually has some fangs. I suspected we were completely ignored and had confirmation when the ta came out, only saying that the old-timers were now a protected class of citizen. In a previous life we had excellent language in our contract that dictated specifically who could train/check and what the training/checking guys could and could not get away with. This led to a very low stress learning environment that in turn led to an extremely safe operating environment. Seemingly, most important of all to this management team it kept our training costs low. I would love to know what all of the games being played at the school house really cost the company. I suspect our management either has no idea or enjoys the heavy hand these guys wield. The easiest way to control a pilot group is through the training dept. AP being old Eastern himself has no understanding about the threats and intimidation the rest of us non-Eastern line swine endure at the school house. I am tired of hearing about how all of these foqa (sp?) events are the result of incompetent pilots that the company hired back in the bad old days. Almost anybody can be trained to proficiency, but this of course requires somebody to actually train. When I look at our union committee roster and see an age 60 committee and no training committee it sums up our unions' priority's nicely.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

well it sounds like we will be cleaning house in our union pretty soon. Hopefully whoever steps up will put in end to the (BECAUSE THATS THE WAY WE DID IT AT EASTERN, GROUP). Must of been a great place to work.
I heard one instructor is so old that he drools on himself during TRN. NICE!!!

 

[Av8tor]

intimidate......evaluate is the motto at the training center!

 

[Captzaahlie]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?
Beat me, whip me, make me write bad checks, hell it will be no different than being in trouble with the Mrs.
Guess I'll just have to study that much harder!

BTW- Great bunch of interviewers down there. Much thanks to Coach, Rich and Lindsey for making us all feel real welcome! Great experience whatever the out come....

 

[PCL_128]

Hell you guys are scaring me!
I just interviewed down there today and I've got this to look forward to ........?

I wouldn't worry too much about it. I've heard all the same stories, but I didn't experience any of it during training. Yeah, one instructor I had talked a lot about how things were at EAL, but that doesn't really bother me. He still got the instruction done, and I heard some interesting stories. The checkairman was more than fair. I'm sure there's a few guys in the department that fit the descriptions above, but I never ran into them, so you're chances of getting them are probably pretty low. Just relax, study, and you'll be fine.

 

[labatt]

Capt Z,

Congrats on the interview. It's really not that bad. All of the instructors are great and you won't have any trouble. If anyone needs a little help they go out of their way. It's still a little old school but has improved light years. Like some guys have said, a lot of checking and not so much training after initial.

New hire pass rates are probably 99% and the upgrades at least 90%. Just like anywhere, be prepared and have a good attitude. See you on the line.