AirTran thoughts on Kelly's Disposal of SL10

[ATLplt]

This could be a possible compromise:

If SWA does not comply with the CBA and Side letter that they also signed,
the AT transition guys SHOULD NOT be allowed to upgrade starting 1 Jan 2015.

Not great for the AAI pilots on the SWA side of the transition come 01JAN2015, but good for the AAI guys on the other side of the partition...it may keep the natives quiet...

Except for the fact that the "natives" are now comprised of former AT guys on the SWA side and represented by SWAPA. Why should they not be able to hold Captain if their seniority allows it?

 

[vixin]

I'm not sure why any of you are surprised. I said this almost 2 months ago...

I dont either. There were some of us giving scenarios like this before SL10 was voted on. We were told to basically shut up and color. SWAPULL knows what is best for us.

 

[BR715]

Listen to yourselves! It just goes to show you how much of a circus this has all become.

 

[scoreboardII]

The only reasonable compromise then is to to keep the CA upgrade partition in place as long as a 717 flies in AT colors.

 

[dicko]

The only reasonable compromise then is to to keep the CA upgrade partition in place as long as a 717 flies in AT colors.

Except for the fact that there are already agreements in place that;

a. Allow former AirTran pilots to upgrade on the SWA side according to their global seniority after Jan 2015, and

b. Do not allow a Bump and Flush on the 717 Captain list.

The question is; can SWAPA change these agreements without the agreement of AirTran pilots ? Perhaps somebody with a better understanding of the AirTran agreements can answer that ....

 

[Crash Pad]

I'm not sure why any of you are surprised. I said this almost 2 months ago...

I called the 717 sale a long time ago and you were shocked.

You also thought AIP1 had to be killed... then you went to Dallas and suddenly it wasn't such a bad deal.

 

[humveedriver]

The only reasonable compromise then is to to keep the CA upgrade partition in place as long as a 717 flies in AT colors.

Under the current agreement if there is an AirTran pilot still flying a "white" airplane (that's what swa management calls it), then on 1 Jan 2015 a magic wand gets waved and now that pilot is a SWAPA represented pilot earning SWAPA wages. Remember that was original plan under AIP2. SC is the one who sent out his "victory" message about the 717 leaving early. Like Gary told us, we haven't violated the agreement.

 

[Citrusflyer]

The only reasonable compromise then is to to keep the CA upgrade partition in place as long as a 717 flies in AT colors.

Wishful thinking ... As GC said to the AT guys, "the agreement is in place, it's not going to change." SWAPA will have to live with it as well - the good and the bad.

 

[Lear70]

I called the 717 sale a long time ago and you were shocked.

You also thought AIP1 had to be killed... then you went to Dallas and suddenly it wasn't such a bad deal.

Au contraire mon frer. The first deal was a steaming pile of crap. It just stank less than the 2nd deal done under threat of our careers (which still sucks).

But don't let reality stand in the way of rewriting history.

We should have been allowed to go to arbitration with integration per the Process Agreeement that everyone signed. If we had, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And no, incidentally, you can't preclude the AAI CA's who can hold it from upgrading come 2015 any more than the guy trying to upgrade now can. It's all there in black and white and I find it more than just a little disingenuous that our 717 CA seats go away and we should just take it, but if the 717's stay past 2015 suddenly SWAPA pilots are entitled to something.

You can't make this sh*t up...

 

[redflyer65]

It's a Section 1 scope violation after Jan 1, 2015 I believe. You can appreciate that Lear. We on the SWAPA side signed off on scope relief with this deal and it's all intertwined. Will the sticker idea work after that date? Who knows.

As far as the difference between Agreement 1 and 2, the Airtran guys lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the MEC. It should have been voted on by the pilots, plain and simple.

On top of your assertion that it should have gone to arbitration, the AAI MEC tried hard to run out the clock in that regard. We waited day after day for them to decide what they wanted to do. I have the feeling they knew exactly what they were doing, and so did Gary most likely.

The only thing that SWAPA pilots think they are entitled to are Section One protections that we voted on.

Same as getting rid of your Skywest codeshare and the sticker on the AAI 737.

 

[vixin]

Just like AAI pilots want want want some more. Just like you want something for not abiding to the contract so do SWAPA pilots. We should all band together and tell GK to shove it where the sun dont shine, but that would be to monumental to get the two groups to form as one.

 

[PCL_128]

I have the feeling they knew exactly what they were doing

Now that's funny!

 

[redflyer65]

The part about running out the clock? You have a different opinion?

 

[PCL_128]

The part about running out the clock? You have a different opinion?

Yes, it's called inexperience. The idea that they had some sort of diabolical master plan to hold things up is fantasy. They just didn't know what the hell they were doing.

 

[waveflyer]

Please, the king of delay pretending that he wasn't trying to delay delay is the fantasy. Though I agree with inexperience too. But I have to wonder, what in your resume PCL allows you to lecture anyone on experience.

But so glad you're still thinking AT's mistake was not being hardcore enough...

 

[humveedriver]

It's a Section 1 scope violation after Jan 1, 2015 I believe. You can appreciate that Lear. We on the SWAPA side signed off on scope relief with this deal and it's all intertwined. Will the sticker idea work after that date? Who knows.

As far as the difference between Agreement 1 and 2, the Airtran guys lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the MEC. It should have been voted on by the pilots, plain and simple.

On top of your assertion that it should have gone to arbitration, the AAI MEC tried hard to run out the clock in that regard. We waited day after day for them to decide what they wanted to do. I have the feeling they knew exactly what they were doing, and so did Gary most likely.

The only thing that SWAPA pilots think they are entitled to are Section One protections that we voted on.

Same as getting rid of your Skywest codeshare and the sticker on the AAI 737.

So what kind of time table are we looking at here? Let's say for the next two years we don't become one SWAPA family? DEC 31 comes and goes and the pilots of the 36 717 aircraft are still ALPA. Or SWAPA flying a non SWA airplane. How long to file and see that greivance through? I'm thinking the planes will be gone before it gets to arbitration.

 

[redflyer65]

I'm not sure Humvee. It's still complete speculation at this point with it being over 2 years away. If I were king, everyone would be SWAPA Jan 1, 2015 (or sooner) regardless and all working together.....717's still on property or not. There is still plenty of time to work out the details, whether it's SWAPA issues or issues from guys on the other side of the partition.

 

[Lear70]

It's a Section 1 scope violation after Jan 1, 2015 I believe. You can appreciate that Lear. We on the SWAPA side signed off on scope relief with this deal and it's all intertwined. Will the sticker idea work after that date? Who knows.

As far as the difference between Agreement 1 and 2, the Airtran guys lost hundreds of thousands of dollars because of the MEC. It should have been voted on by the pilots, plain and simple.

In retrospect, it would have been better for our pilots, although I'm not certain at all that SL9 would have passed SWA vote, but I really didn't intend to start an SIA 1 -vs- SIA 2 argument, just reiterating that for every SIA 1 argument there's the arbitration counter-argument.

The only thing that SWAPA pilots think they are entitled to are Section One protections that we voted on.

Same as getting rid of your Skywest codeshare and the sticker on the AAI 737.

Oh I don't blame you for fighting this issue, just as we are fighting what the 717 deal with Delta has done to our CA seats, which was the crux of the entire agreement.

I don't fault SWAPA one bit for pursuing this issue. What I take issue with is one of the other poster's "idea" of trying to FURTHER PUNISH AirTran pilots by saying a "fair" alternative would be, if the 717's are still at AAI in violation of the Agreement on 1/1/15, then no former-AAI Captains can upgrade at SWA. That really is a non-starter.

Your relief should and will come from your management. Not from AAI pilots. Other than that, I applaud your enforcement of your CBA, just don't do it off the backs of our pilots, that's all.

 

[PCL_128]

Not only is it a non-starter, it's also a blatant DFR violation. Whether SWAPA likes it or not, they now represent former AirTran captains who have the seniority for upgrade. Artificially delaying their upgrade even further will be a clear DFR problem for them, and I doubt SWAPA carries enough insurance to cover that judgment.

 

[redflyer65]

In retrospect, it would have been better for our pilots, although I'm not certain at all that SL9 would have passed SWA vote, but I really didn't intend to start an SIA 1 -vs- SIA 2 argument, just reiterating that for every SIA 1 argument there's the arbitration counter-argument.


Oh I don't blame you for fighting this issue, just as we are fighting what the 717 deal with Delta has done to our CA seats, which was the crux of the entire agreement.

I don't fault SWAPA one bit for pursuing this issue. What I take issue with is one of the other poster's "idea" of trying to FURTHER PUNISH AirTran pilots by saying a "fair" alternative would be, if the 717's are still at AAI in violation of the Agreement on 1/1/15, then no former-AAI Captains can upgrade at SWA. That really is a non-starter.

Your relief should and will come from your management. Not from AAI pilots. Other than that, I applaud your enforcement of your CBA, just don't do it off the backs of our pilots, that's all.

Agreed. As far as I'm concerned, those that can hold upgrade after 1/1/15 should be able to upgrade. The list should be the list after that date without any restrictions. And I didn't think you were trying to go down that road again, it doesn't really serve much purpose. Water under the bridge.