AirTran TA2

[Britpilot]

I'm not saying whether I'm voting for it or not but I bet you it passes 60/40. Was flying today and the Captain had his laptop with the TA on it. We compared to the current contract. The 3 givebacks were the door closing, the PPO plan, and current reserve pay. If we lost 5 minutes every leg we would lose 5% per month. Realistically with underblock legs and 1-3 minute average of door close to movement it equates to about 2% concession. We both calculated about a 9% raise initially, so approx 7% raise. The current reserve pay everyone knew would be gone but we got long call reserve and min 12 days off. We retained most of the current book and some improvements. If the TA goes down, rumor has it the mediator is booked solid for 6 months. Is it worth 9 months delay for the door closing? It seems the company got some and we got some. The pay rates minus the Fo first year are industry standard with other equipment of the same size (airline pilot central). The opinion of the individuals on this website seem to be much more extreme and negative compared to the pilots I have talked to. Still I'm going to think long and hard before I cast my vote.

Errr, what planet are you from?

 

[curtis46]

funnyman,
convince me why should we give up our current reserve system,i'm listening...

 

[RadioClash]

The 3 givebacks were the door closing, the PPO plan, and current reserve pay. If we lost 5 minutes every leg we would lose 5% per month. Realistically with underblock legs and 1-3 minute average of door close to movement it equates to about 2% concession.

So you are okay with concessions??? So he have 3 givebacks and this pay concession and lets just say that 3 1/2 years from now, you know the one thing that is good is its short duration (idiot AP), so 3 1/2 years from now fuel is $XXX a barrel, and the company comes to us for more. Well hell, we gave them this stuff when times were good so when times are bad it will be even more. Why are we giving stuff away now?!? But you might be okay with that? You are okay with 3 givebacks and a 2% conecession?

This is stupid. Were you flying with Special Ed?

 

[gearup5]

Funnyman is probably a dumb colganite.
Still a no vote.

 

[fletch717]

It's a big NO for me

Fletch

 

[funnyman12]

wow guys...sorry for posting on your sacred forum. i havent even made up my mind yet! god forbid someone dare share their thoughts. i'll make sure to post ideas that are identical to yours. very mature how everyone jumped on me. not much for an intelligent challenge eh? you guys do not represent mature democratic individuals with that response. cheer up, life aint that bad!!! i am still split on how i will vote!

 

[Afterprop]

Notional Pilot Amateurs (NPA)

Funnyman . . . errrrrrr, sorry; not funny.

At all . . .

Vote no, vote often. Recall, then recall again. Sorta like rinse and spin. Then rinse and spin again. These guys still haven't gotten the point.

1) Ocean floor level pay for FOs.
2) Grandfathered hotels that are unacceptable !
3) Loss of window or aisle seat on deadheads !
4) FAR limitations on line assignment / integration !
5) Concessionary issues in practically every section !

:angryfire GMAFB ! ! !

If I flew like the NPA negotiates, we'd never push back.



Amateur - A person who engages in an art, a science, a study, or an athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession.

 

[Lear70]

I'm not saying whether I'm voting for it or not but I bet you it passes 60/40.

First, let me say that you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and your vote. We live in a democratic society (mostly) and this is a union, not an autocracy, so you can vote how you like.

However, since you posted here, in the spirit of debate and trying to spread the TRUTH about this T.A., I'll answer your assertions one at a time.

First, I'll take that bet. My bet is it will fail 60/40. What shall the wager be?

Was flying today and the Captain had his laptop with the TA on it. We compared to the current contract. The 3 givebacks were the door closing, the PPO plan, and current reserve pay.

No, there's a LOT more concessions in it than that, or did you miss the rebuttal bulletpoints in my signature below? You may not agree with my politics, but I can quote you section, paragraph, and page that PROVE every single one of my points.

1. Section 1.C.3, pages 8 and 9. Scope. Major concession #1.

2. Section 2, giving up window or aisle seats for deadheads.

3-7. Section 4, 737-800 is now considered a SNB aircraft. Loss of door close. Loss of reserve pay. Loss of new-hire F/O pay from $42.75 down to $38.50, approximately a 9% pay CUT for new-hires. I'm sure your friends hired on after you will LOVE you for it...

8-11. Section 5, loss of no ready reserve after a flight assignment. Loss of build-up lines (move-ups are NOT guaranteed to exist in the final solution). Loss of first deadhead return to base after a flight assignment = LINEHOLDER ready reserve at outstations. Loss of no SAP 1 floor coverages = say hello to "denied due to min reserve coverage" in SAP 1.

12-14. Section 12. Concession of INCREASED premiums for EVERY plan. Concession of INCREASED co-pays with NO limits on increase. Loss of ability to elect into PPO plan.

15-16. Section 13. Concession of grievance timeline to company - we miss a deadline, we lose the grievance automatically. Concession of the access for EVERY pilot to at least the System Board level for grievances.

17. Section 14. Concession of "failure to recommend" counts as checkride failure towards your limit of events you can fail to be terminated without recourse.

18-19. Section 18. Concession to allow company to continue outsourced RJ operations if we furlough pilots. Concession of loss of 14-day notice or pay in lieu of before being furloughed as a result of a strike from another group of employees.

That's nearly 20 concessions, right off the top of my head, ALL of which can be proven in the T.A. Guess you didn't get that far into the document during your trip.

If we lost 5 minutes every leg we would lose 5% per month. Realistically with underblock legs and 1-3 minute average of door close to movement it equates to about 2% concession.

Actually, that's correct. The Negotiating Committee and Allen Philpot both agreed this was a 2% loss as taken over the entire pilot group historically over a year's time.

But that's not the real problem. The real problem is with your math below.

We both calculated about a 9% raise initially, so approx 7% raise.

That's essentially correct for you. Your Captain is likely in the 4-5% raise bracket if he's a year 5-9 CA.

You're missing one basic piece of information: your looking at pay rates you haven't seen a raise on since 2004. That's 3 years. Check out this link for more information:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lear70/Salary_Comparison_TA_2.pdf

You'll see 4 items. The first one I'll point out is where we SHOULD be in salaries, IF we had ONLY gained Cost Of Living Adjustments (COLA) for each year after the amendable date. Hint: our pay at Date Of Signing is LESS than the 2004 rates adjusted for ACTUAL inflation numbers from the U.S. Government.

So you're signing for a pay cut from what an F/O at your longevity made in 2004. Sounds GREAT, right?

The current reserve pay everyone knew would be gone but we got long call reserve and min 12 days off.

Let's take a closer look at that. Are you SURE we got long-call reserve? Can you show me where, in the T.A. the company is REQUIRED to leave Tactical Reserve lines in the FINAL line solution after the 28th? Hint: you can't. They can make all those Tactical Reserves into Move-Up lineholders and have ZERO TR's in the actual solution.

Just like our CURRENT contract... did you know we HAVE long-call reserve NOW? Sure we do... CURRENT CBA Section 5.E.6.d.1.d, page 5-2-6, RLC Reserve Long Call 0000-2200. Problem is, we didn't REQUIRE the Company to have them in the final solution, JUST like this T.A. You'll never see them after Move-Up lines are constructed.

Second, 12 days off? You were already GETTING 10-11 days off with the ability to drop reserve days. SO... you want to give up the reserve pay system for 1 extra day off half the year, 2 extra days off the other half of the year, when you ALREADY HAVE the ability to get 12 days off a month on reserve if you want it (I sat reserve 7 months and was ALWAYS able to get at least 13-14 days off a month), PLUS you want to give up 30-40 hours of pay for those extra 1 or 2 days?

That's one HELL of a concession in my book. I WISH one day of flying credited 15-20 hours... NOT a fair trade-off for the Twome give-back.

We retained most of the current book and some improvements.

I think I just undisputedly disproved that statement.

If the TA goes down, rumor has it the mediator is booked solid for 6 months.

That's not a rumor. That's a fact. Tosi has already said that and AP has already come out with that information publicly. First available slot is the end of January.

Is it worth 9 months delay for the door closing?

You mean, is it worth 9 months' delay for 20 contract concessions, industry average CA pay, and well BELOW industry average F/O pay?

It seems the company got some and we got some. The pay rates minus the Fo first year are industry standard with other equipment of the same size (airline pilot central).

That is COMPLETELY incorrect. Check that link above I gave you, it has the SNB pay average from EVERY major airline, NOT INCLUDING the cargo carriers so it would be as accurate as possible, for both CA and F/O.

The F/O's are WELL below industry average at Date Of Signing. That's a FACT, and AP has agreed to that as has the NC. They keep stressing the quick upgrades that are becoming farther and farther away as their reasoning for accepting below-industry-average F/O rates. Ask them, they'll tell you...

The CA's are pretty close to industry-standard, yet below inflation-adjusted pay from 2004 (the amendable date).

The opinion of the individuals on this website seem to be much more extreme and negative compared to the pilots I have talked to. Still I'm going to think long and hard before I cast my vote.

This site has always been the vocal minority. However, if we can get every one of our pilots to at least READ the information I've given you here today and on my website, at least they will know the TRUTH.

If they vote YES knowing they're signing for sub-standard pay and more than 20 sections of concessions from current book, then, quite frankly, they deserve to live under them...

I'm not interested in concessions with a profitable company. We don't need to burn the place down, but anything less than current book plus COLA is simply cutting your own legs out from under yourself.

Feel free to talk about any one or more sections and we can explain how they are concessionary and exact paragraphs that prove it. Debate is a healthy thing! :beer:

 

[md83drvr]

funnyman,

Please re-read the TA. While the pay rates may seem Ok, the rest of the document is concessionary. Do not read it from your point of view, read it from the companies view, and find all of the areas that can be reinterpreted. The company will use/abuse this document to the best of their abilities.

Stop thinking as a regional pilot. Start thinking like a major airline pilot. We deserve better treatment and a better TA than has been proposed. The company just made 41million last quarter. There is absolutely no reason to accept concessions in any area.

The three give backs are just the ones they want you to see. This last TA didn't even get us back to current book. The work rules are terrible and are worse than I worked under at the regional in the early 90's.

If you are junior or have any intention to upgrade in the next 6 years you will be under the reserve work rules proposed, which are some of the worse I have ever see in the industry. The reserve pay, while not standard, should not go away. The rest of the industry would love to have anything close to what we won in arbitration. The NPA gave away a major issue and did nothing to improve the work rules for reserves. They will say you are only on reserve for a short percentage over your total career. Current reserve is 2 years, this will only increase as A/C deliveries slow. Someone will always be on reserve under the proposed work rules. Just because it is not you does not mean you sell out everyone else. The TA should benefit the majority of pilots, this one does not.

This is a very decisive issue, and one you will have to live with for a long time, much longer than the proposed duration of this TA.

"Is it worth 9 months delay for the door closing?" YES. Pay is not the major beef with anyone. It is work rules. You never give up work rules. Pay can always be negotiated, work rules will never return.

Get educated by the guys like Lear to see the short comings of this TA, don't just listen to the CA's or the NPA.

 

[funnyman12]

Lear 70 thanks for an educated response and all your helpful research. i re-iterate that i am in the research stage and once i have been educated by as many sources, i will make my vote.

 

[sabregirl]

I have a question.

Would any of you who work at AirTran start working there today if you were to do it all over again, even though the contract is in limbo?

Thanks!

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70 thanks for an educated response and all your helpful research. i re-iterate that i am in the research stage and once i have been educated by as many sources, i will make my vote.

Absolutely. I hope you will decide on a NO vote, but respect your efforts to at least educate yourself on the beliefs and ideas presented by both sides of the issue.

I almost forgot, had to add the salary comparison chart to my web page so you could see where I derived the "industry average" line from on the charts and double-check the numbers and math.

Don't want anyone to say I was using "fuzzy math".

http://home.earthlink.net/~lear70/Industry_Average_Computation.pdf

Sabregirl, that's a good question. I would say Yes, not having the contract changed YET, simply because even though I took a nearly 50% pay cut to come here, my quality of life (days off, commutable trips, ability to trade/swap/drop trips) is drastically better than it was at Pinnacle.

The problem is career expectancies are NOT what I signed on for (2-3 year upgrades), which is the big question mark. If this thing goes through in its current form (I doubt it, but it's possible), reserve will be pure hell and F/O wages will not put me back to what I *would* have made by staying put at PCL until either year 7 F/O pay or when I upgrade, around year 4-5 currently projected.

Don't have a crystal ball, but I imagine some people might choose to wait it out at their regional with all the other majors hiring and our future so uncertain here...

 

[Homer Jay]

I have a question.

Would any of you who work at AirTran start working there today if you were to do it all over again, even though the contract is in limbo?

Thanks!

Excellent question as I have an interview next month. I have to be honest, I don't have a really good feeling about what's going on over there...

 

[Lear70]

Another concession just came up. 100-seat jet rates as they apply to future airplane rate discussions.

Current book requires the company to pick a CATEGORY for a new airplane, specifically SNB, LNB, or WB for pay computation of the new airframe.

This works in our favor by giving them only 3 options to put RJ's on property with us operating them, with the cheapest being our EXISTING 717/737 pay rates.

When I was in D.C. and we were trying to get the 100 seat jet rates removed, this came up and I very SPECIFICALLY explained to Allen and the NC WHY it was critical to leave that sentence alone (the company wasn't present when we discussed this). The last time we discussed it in negotiating session, this paragraph had not been touched.

NOW they've changed it. New T.A. Section 4.C.2.d, which now, instead of negotiating on a "category", they negotiate on a specific "rate", or it goes to Arbitration.

This is a HUGE concession, and paves the way for us to get 100-seat RJ's on property at 100-seat rates the regionals are flying them for, rather than having our lowest POSSIBLE rate at our CURRENT pay.

When all of you go to the road shows, I certainly hope you accord them the level of animosity they deserve at this point.

Complete and total incompetency, failure to achieve ANY stated goals, and failure to represent the pilots in ANY meaningful way, either in negotiations, grievances, or side letters.

Oh I'm PISSED!!

 

[EMBATP]

once again...thanks to lear70 for breaking it down for all of us...and i know pay and the associated stuff that goes with are important...but so is work rules, scope and language...as lear70 pointed out in his last post....stay informed and keep others informed...we can do better and we will gain a better contract by staying unified until our goals, not the companies, are met....

 

[j41driver]

I have a question.

Would any of you who work at AirTran start working there today if you were to do it all over again, even though the contract is in limbo?

Thanks!

I sure wouldn't. Don't get me wrong...the vast majority of the CA's I've flown with have been great guys. It's just that management has NO IDEA how to treat employees and I can't imagine working under this way of management for the remainder of my career. Hopefully that will change when JL steps down but who knows....

 

[wood pecker]

After flying w/ an "undecided" CA, I am guessing that they will vote yes b/c they can not get pass the hourly rate. That is why the rates were the main emphasis b/c they know there are a few uneducated people who can not read past the chance for an extra buck. Mention scope, RJs, unlimited turbprops, loss of credit, emergency bank and there reply is well we are not Southwest and we got to keep from going under. Then you ask about the record profit w/ the current contract and you realize they are just plain dumb and you are better off playing w/ the grime light than trying to talk facts.
"Well I am not on reserve, I am too senior to be put on an RJ, AAI does not want props, When I was a new hire. The credit system is stealing... Who wants stand-ups? F everybody I want my money."
I told him to reserve a phone booth for his retirement party b/c he won't need anything larger. Then I landed w/ the auto power off to watch him freak out.

 

[Guppy Guy]

Well, this vote will be very interesting. I got together today with four of our captains and was relieved to hear them all say what an insult this TA is.

I was certainly concerned that the more senior captains would have the same attitude that Woodpecker described. That they would be out for personal gain over group and industry requirerments.
This was not the case at all. We all agreed that this TA needs to go down hard, again!!, a new leardeship needs to be put in place, and a new NC needs to make sure this is done right. There is no great rush to have this thing done tomorrow.

I hope that guys who are on the fence about this TA see it for what it is. I think they will. I can't imagine anyone who truely understands the language and the loop holes in this thing voting to approve it.

My guess is it dies 75/25 and we start over next year.

Thank you Lear for all of your hard work. I've printed out your info. and will show it to whoever I am flying with. Education and information is the key to giving this POS the quick death it deserves.

Good Night and Good Luck

 

[DougCorp-9]

Section 1 still gives away up to 86 seats.

Rule #1: Never give your flying away.
Rule #2: See rule #1


Voting NO.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Regarding the mediator not being available. There is nothing that requires us to have the mediator there to negotiate with the company. He can only make sure that they show up to the table.

 

[Critter717]

Excellent question as I have an interview next month. I have to be honest, I don't have a really good feeling about what's going on over there...

If you are looking to upgrade in 4+ years, work for a company that will live or die by it's own decisions, fly nice airplanes, etc...you will enjoy working for the company. I made a little over 150k last year(8 yr 717Ca) for you "lateral move" regional guys/gals.

Say what you will, this company will not invest in anything that does not get a return. They are not tied to a "mainline" anything. If you don't like to fly, look some where else. Show at the interview knowing we wear hats, push wheelchairs, pull tickets and fetch strollers, program the FMS and even -gasp- as a captain- do a walk around if it will help move things along. To base a decision soley on how contract talks are going is short sighted in my opinion. If this stuff makes you queasy you will hate it at AirTran.

Go with your gut. High cost structure airlines have always had great success. You should have no trouble finding one.

For me, I could not sign up again fast enough.

 

[atldc9]

If you are looking to upgrade in 4+ years, work for a company that will live or die by it's own decisions, fly nice airplanes, etc...you will enjoy working for the company. I made a little over 150k last year(8 yr 717Ca) for you "lateral move" regional guys/gals.

Say what you will, this company will not invest in anything that does not get a return. They are not tied to a "mainline" anything. If you don't like to fly, look some where else. Show at the interview knowing we wear hats, push wheelchairs, pull tickets and fetch strollers, program the FMS and even -gasp- as a captain- do a walk around if it will help move things along. To base a decision soley on how contract talks are going is short sighted in my opinion. If this stuff makes you queasy you will hate it at AirTran.

Go with your gut. High cost structure airlines have always had great success. You should have no trouble finding one.

For me, I could not sign up again fast enough.

Yup, what he said...

 

[DougCorp-9]

Show at the interview knowing we wear hats, push wheelchairs, pull tickets and fetch strollers, program the FMS and even -gasp- as a captain- do a walk around if it will help move things along. To base a decision soley on how contract talks are going is short sighted in my opinion. If this stuff makes you queasy you will hate it at AirTran.

]

Great. That is a big help to get the company to fix these problems. You might, but we don't.

 

[jumppilot]

Lear70 -
You’ve done a great job with your presentation. I’m just confused with the 1st year FO pay chart. It’s listed as:

Current 42.75....Proposed 38.50....9.01% TA Increase

Since they want to lower the first year pay, shouldn’t it say Decrease or maybe have a minus sign in front of it?

Thanks…

Wish y’all the best!

You missed the negative symbol in the TA pay chart.

 

[Lear70]

You missed the negative symbol in the TA pay chart.

He was right, I made all those charts and rebuttal in about 4 hours, and there were a few excel formula errors that I fixed once he pointed them out.

Took out some of the political stuff about recall and made it ONLY about the T.A. One issue at a time...

Woodpecker, I've flown with a guy like that. Took the whole trip patiently pointing out things in the rebuttal and a printed contract copy to convince him, but I finally did.

And there will be people you never can convince, they're just too happy to have a job and be in the left seat making six figures.

Thanks for trying to pass the word, and don't give up! I still believe this will die, but we need to push every single person we talk to about it to make sure it dies as thoroughly as possible!

Thanks to everyone for the support and I hope to see you in the crew room or a road show soon!

 

[newnan]

I'll do a walk around when it meets the 3 S rule (seventies, sunny, and Saturday or Sunday when the feds are usually off)

 

[MDW]

Lear,
Just wondering if the part about "lines being awarded in seniority order unless they violate an FAR" is still in there. I haven't seen it mentioned by you or the NPA since TA2 came out. That is such a huge concession, as it leaves our awarded lines up in the air. What a scary precedent.
Thanks
Yes, Yes, No

 

[labatt]

MDW,

Good question. You beat me to it. I looked for it, but didn't see it either. Hopefully it's gone.

Keep up the good work Lear. Appreciate you taking the time to tear this thing apart and fill us all in on the pitfalls of this thing.

 

[mnboyev]

Negotiate Brake Release... not GNS movement!!!

 

[mnboyev]

AirTran is a good place to work as a pilot... we will get a fair deal .. probably have to wear a lid though.. LOL...

Not a regional airline at all ... for all you backpack toting under paid RJ fellas... keep your Ipods and DocMartins at home... Flame away !!