AirTran TA2

[Murphy]

I just got a email from the union. Only 50% of the pilot group has voted for the recall. Unbelievable!!!!!!!!

Get your sorry butts on the phone/online and vote. It takes about 10 minutes. No arm twisting from me and how to vote...just vote.

 

[Lifter]

My mail is running 80/20 in favor of personal attacks. . . . . and it was meant partly in jest.

I don't have the problem with the personal attacks, I just want you to have the correct person referenced. If it was me, than I can deal with a rebuttal. But I don't want the by-standers to think it was me you are talking about.

 

[Murphy]

It wasn't me. I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.

 

[Afterprop]

Get Out and VOTE ! ! !

I got the email too. I think he means that he's calling BS on the union that only 50% have voted so far.

I wonder if that number includes me voting once a day . . . and twice a day on Fridays and Saturdays.:beer:

YES YES NO

Vote early and vote often ! ! ! Gitr dun ! ! !

 

[-9Capt]

My mail is running 80/20 in favor of personal attacks. . . . . and it was meant partly in jest.

It's cool Ty. I know who you're talking about.

Excuse me. I have to....GO-FART...

 

[Guppy Guy]

So has anyone been to a road show yet? I'm planning on attending Tues. but was courious to hear what's being said. Is the NPA selling this TA as hard as they were the last time?

I flew with a guy this week who was thinking about changing his "no" vote to a "yes "vote. I showed him the rebuttal points from Lear and he was swayedd back to the "no" side. Aparently a lot of guys are worried that this will drag out another year or so and we won't do any better. While it drags out they'll be losing a lot of potential money.

While I understand this concern I think it is the wrong way to approach this. The long term dangers of this TA far outweigh any short term money gains or losses.

I would urge us all to get out there and educate everyone about the pitfalls of this proposal. Are you flying with someone who thinks "it not so bad, I think I could live with it"? Show them the rebuttal points. It's very effective. While it's tempting for some of the more senior guys to want to take the money and run, when they see the big picture of how dangerous some of the work rules are in this thing they seem to reconsider their position.

I still think in the end this goes down 75/25 against but it's up to us to keep the pressure on. Let's vote this down hard, and empower the new leadership for the next round.

Good luck to us all.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

How do you educate this guy?
Top 100 on the list, 717CA.

"I need a raise." "I don't care about the junior guys, I don't care if we ever hire another pilot, or for that matter if we furlough. I don't care if we park all the 717's for RJ's, I'll just go to the 737." "It doesn't affect me. I just want more money."

 

[Lear70]

I'm glad to hear you say that, Guppy. I'm just glad people like you are getting the "word" out and people are listening.

The bottom line is, the worst that can happen is we stay AT CURRENT BOOK and continue to negotiate. The CA's only get an extra $10 bucks an hour. 85 hour average credit = $850 a month, $10,020 a year, minus 35% taxes, dues, etc = $6,500 for the next year they lose while we continue to negotiate.

Is $6,500 worth the loss of Scope, insurance, door-close, and scheduling rules?

The F/O's shouldn't even be THINKING about it - it's only worth about $300 a month after taxes for us, and we're the ones who stand the most to lose for Scope, slower upgrades, and reserve rules once we DO upgrade.

Fornaro's letter should help anyone who's on the fence about Scope:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]One result is inescapable. If AirTran cannot grow profitably, we will slow our rate of growth. Take a look at the other non-legacy carriers... Frontier has hit a rocky road trying to compete against Southwest and United in Denver and is counting on its future growth coming from a new entrant subsidiary.

A little history lesson: Frontier USED to have roughly the same Scope restrictions that WE did. The SECOND they let them go, Frontier started planning for growing a regional carrier. Within a few months, Q-400's were ordered and started arriving and "mainline" Frontier growth came to a SCREECHING HALT!

Bob's statement should say enough to EVERYONE about the dangers of Scope, and that comes from OUR CEO!

Then we have this gem:

ATA has shrunk its domestic operation to a fraction of its former size. Even Southwest Airlines has announced reductions in its deliveries as it has been unable to achieve its financial targets.

So, if we don't meet our financial targets, regardless of whether the T.A. is ratified, we will slow our deliveries just like everyone else?

That's great to know in advance. If I get stuck on F/O pay for a lot longer than planned, might as well be with our CURRENT work rules OR with a T.A. that gives us AT LEAST industry average pay OR BETTER!

Like Guppy said, voting it down hard is the ONLY way to empower the next leadership group to go in and get a contract YOU DESERVE!

Vote now, vote No. Thanks for your solidarity!
[/FONT]

 

[DonVerita]

I just voted a big "HELL NO" to TA2.

Lear 70 is right on the money in everything he has done for us. Intelligent, well-spoken, a visionary, and calls it like it is.

Is there any doubt as to who we need to be the new union president?

Lear 70 (R.M.) for NPA President! Start the campaign Sept. 6th!

A leader like this comes along once in a blue moon. We need to circle the wagons gentlemen and get him elected by a landslide. We also need an equally talented V.P. to stand with him.

After this comes the appointment of a new Negotiating Committee followed by the disbanding of the rest of the worthless BOD. Are you listening Rico? You're first on the list.

 

[PCL_128]

Is there any doubt as to who we need to be the new union president?

Lear 70 (R.M.) for NPA President! Start the campaign Sept. 6th!

Exactly!!! He's got my vote.

 

[Homer Jay]

If you are looking to upgrade in 4+ years, work for a company that will live or die by it's own decisions, fly nice airplanes, etc...you will enjoy working for the company. I made a little over 150k last year(8 yr 717Ca) for you "lateral move" regional guys/gals.

Say what you will, this company will not invest in anything that does not get a return. They are not tied to a "mainline" anything. If you don't like to fly, look some where else. Show at the interview knowing we wear hats, push wheelchairs, pull tickets and fetch strollers, program the FMS and even -gasp- as a captain- do a walk around if it will help move things along. To base a decision soley on how contract talks are going is short sighted in my opinion. If this stuff makes you queasy you will hate it at AirTran.

Go with your gut. High cost structure airlines have always had great success. You should have no trouble finding one.

For me, I could not sign up again fast enough.

SHORT SIGHTED??? No, I've worked for two airlines where management has not cared about it's employee groups and this TA tells me that working for AirTran could be the third. And please don't make an inference that *gasp* I would have to work hard there. Working hard is all I know...

 

[-9Capt]

I made a little over 150k last year(8 yr 717Ca) for you "lateral move" regional guys/gals..

A decade ago that was a decent wage, for an FO.

 

[MGT3]

I think that once the results of the Recall are out, and AP & MS are recalled, the momentum will be for voting the TA down. Once it becomes clear that there is a majority of pilots who are unhappy with the current NPA leadwership and the new guys running for office start preaching their fire & brimstone, the momentum will shift dramatically to this thing going down 75/25.

I am a junior captain on reserve, no one at my demographic or below should vote for this thing. It does nothing for people at my senority or below. This TA was written for the top 25%. Personally, I don't even try to talk to these guys. I concentrate on educating every FO and other CAs with in 10% of my senority.

Personally I don't mind pushing wheel chairs or grabbing the ocational stroller when I feel like I am part of a team that values my my contribution. When this insult of TA came out and all the stupid pet tricks the NPA have pulled since then, I recognize that I not not valued by either my company or my union and that new leadership is called for that will fight FOR the pilots rather that fight THE pilots.

GT

 

[Island Hopper]

LEAR 70 FOR PRESIDENT!

You got my vote

 

[ultrarunner]

LEAR 70 FOR PRESIDENT!

You got my vote

You said it Island. I'm not at AAI, but this part of the industry does interest me, so I have been somewhat following this thread...

If ANY ONE PILOT on the AAI sen. list doesn't think Lear70 is an asset to the QOL and liveleyhood of everyone on that list, they're an idiot.

IMHO, from what I have read, Lear70 is fighting for everyones benefit, and regardless of your opinion on organized labor, etc., Lear70 is PRO-EMPLOYEE. And that's fast becoming a minority.

Lear70 has much to be proud of and everyone should be proud of his efforts.

I'd be honored to shake his hand, as it is obvious HE CARES ABOUT YOU!

good luck to all.

 

[Lear70]

Thanks to all for their kind words and support.

This really is a difficult time for all of us here at AirTran. We came here with such high hopes of a "Southwest-esque" quality of life and management relationships, as well as making this a "career" stop, rather than just another resume entry.

It's not as "rosy" as we believed, but it's still a GREAT airline with a LOT of potential. Our resolve will be sorely tested over the next few weeks. We have to stay united with a common goal of a contract that benefits ALL of us while maintaining a viable, profitable company for decades to come.

Like other candidates who are obviously considering a campaign, I prefer to let the dust settle on the recall vote before I move forward. There's no need to put the cart before the horse and we've already seen where haste and rushing to get things out have gotten us.

I wish everyone a happy Labor Day Weekend. Please take a moment to vote, but then take the day to enjoy your FAMILIES; there's not much more important than that!

Fly safe,

 

[EMBATP]

just voted NO again....feels good

 

[UALX727]

Could someone post Fornaro's letter? I never saw it, was it in ops???

 

[AV80R]

Lear for Prez!

just voted NO again....feels good

Lear - if I were still at AirTran I'd vote for you.

I say 'Lear '08 All the Way!' :beer:

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Thanks to all for their kind words and support.

This really is a difficult time for all of us here at AirTran. We came here with such high hopes of a "Southwest-esque" quality of life and management relationships, as well as making this a "career" stop, rather than just another resume entry.

Lear this was the main reason I chose to come to AirTran. So at this point all we can do is fight and hope for the best. If we fail let the flood gates open and it will be time to move on.:beer:

 

[PCL_128]

Just voted NO on the TA, and looking forward to the chance to vote for Lear70 for whatever office he chooses to run for.

Get out there and vote, guys. I heard two senior Captains in the last couple of days say that they're voting "yes." One of them just because he "wants to get it over with," and the other one "because Bob is a really nice guy and I trust him." With these kinds of voters out there, the "no" voters need to be out in force. Don't let a few senior guys decide the next 5-7 years of your life for you.

 

[Critter717]

A decade ago that was a decent wage, for an FO.

Hey Mcfly..come back to the future.

I would rather make 150k for ten years than get "industry leading pay" until we shut down.

Your exactly the short sighted type that will punish existing customers until you get an agreement, then what? Start being nice to folks who pay the bills. Are you gonna track down all the customers you piss off in the interim and let them know things are better now? I will take slow, steady, conservative growth over the big gain contract any day.

Direct your lack of satisfaction with your current position at yourself. You paid for an internal audit committee that made clear the level of waste within the NPA. Skipper, who was renting porno movies in hotels on the NPA'S dime...the PILOT's DIME...is again leading the contract charge? And your wanting 150k FO pay? Nothing against the military guys but when the local fighter wing becomes ALPA, Teamsters, or UAW I will be more optimistic about our chances.

I'm just a top 200 Jackass 717 Captain who is voting no.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I will take slow, steady, conservative growth over the big gain contract any day.

I agree. I just won't take any concessions. Scope and reserve rule changes concern me and they seem unnecessary.

 

[SkiFishFly]

I'm just a top 200 Jackass 717 Captain who is voting no.

Well if you are voting no then I certainly would not consider you a Jacka$$...

 

[curtis46]

i'm confused,
is the vote on the last TA already opened or are you guys still voting on the recall,if so i already casted my vote weeks ago

 

[Lear70]

I'm just a top 200 Jackass 717 Captain who is voting no.

Nice. Made me snort coffee out my nose.

I do want to say one thing about something you said in that post:

You're exactly the short sighted type that will punish existing customers until you get an agreement, then what? Start being nice to folks who pay the bills?

This is something that I do NOT condone. I'm not one of those guys who picks up open time. Hell, I fly min hours for max days off. I don't do them favors, I don't try to salvage their operation when they're short-staffed a particular day or seat. It's not a *job action*; it's just me not wanting to work more often than I'm scheduled for a company that CHOOSES not to reward us for our hard work with a decent contract.

However, when it comes to a flight that I *AM* assigned to, I do my job. 100%. If that means going down and getting a stroller (without climbing into the cargo bin myself), I'll go get the d*mn stroller. Wheelchair passenger need to go up? Sure, I can take care of that. Delayed for 8 hours and your seeing eye dog needs to be walked? I've done that, too (yes, I had my sunglasses on for giggles, no one took a picture ).

All in the last 2 months. AFTER I was given the cold-shoulder from the current NPA leadership. Why? Because THE CUSTOMERS PAY OUR BILLS.

I don't believe in illegal work actions. I don't believe in "sick-outs". I *DO* believe in LEGAL actions such as informational picketing, done in such a way as to gain maximum exposure at the company's most vulnerable moments, like the grand opening ceremonies in new cities (with us walking circles in the background).

I also believe that, when all other options are exhausted, and we are released into a 30-day cooling off period, that we SHOULD avail ourselves of self-help options when allowed. IF it comes to that, which I hope it never does.

At that point, you're not hurting the customer. They've had advance warning through the media. If they CHOOSE to buy a ticket on us, then they accept, by default, any delay or cancellation that happens once we are LEGALLY released.

That's how the game is played. Above-board and honorably. No, I don't think the NMB is set up to be totally "neutral" - ASA is a perfect example - they should have been released a year or more ago.

But that's the reality we live in. So please, don't screw over our customers NOW just because we got a sub-standard T.A. Fly your trip, do your job. That's what PROFESSIONAL aviators do.

 

[Lear70]

i'm confused,
is the vote on the last TA already opened or are you guys still voting on the recall,if so i already casted my vote weeks ago

The vote that closes on Wednesday will NOT include a vote tally for that "Last and Final Offer."

The contract proposal that is in the same vote ballot that contains the recall issue is NOT a T.A. It was NOT agreed to by the BoD, and the votes will NOT be tallied for the Last And Final Offer.

The recall votes WILL be tallied from that ballot, however, and we should see the results within 24-48 hours after they are certified.

There is a NEW ballot that came out yesterday; that's the link I posted. You will need your same PIN that you used for the LAST ballot (this PIN will be used throughout your ballotpoint voting career until we/they change the system so you need to keep it somewhere handy).

This ballot is for the New T.A. 2 that the BoD *DID* agree to and, if ratified, will become your working agreement for the next 6-8 YEARS.

THAT'S why it's SO important to become educated on what you're giving away to get those meager pay raises, then VOTE!

Thanks for taking the time to take care of your own career! :beer:

 

[Guppy Guy]

Just voted NO!!

However, it made me sick to my stomach and angry. It had to be done though. I can't believe that yet again the management of my airline is treating the pilot group with such disrespect. These greedy SOB's have got to be stopped. The letter from Fornaro is an insult!! The improvments that we are asking for will not bankrupt this company by any means.

When I came here a year ago I was hoping to make this my last and final career option. Over the last few months I started exploring alternate plans. Unltimately I concluded that I still want this to be my final career stop. I still see good things happening for AirTran and I want to be a part of it. I bust my butt on line every week, as we all do, to make this place the best it can possibly be for my coworkers and the customers. A little appreciation from the company other than a thank you note in my V-file would go a long way. This old school 70's and 80's mentality of management has got to change.

I can't believe this is the best these guys are willing to offer. What a joke. I can't believe the senior guys are willing to sell out the rest of us. The whole thing stinks!

I still say this thing dies and we start over next year but it shouldn't have gone this way. I blame management for being so damn greedy and the NPA for being so weak.

I'm done venting now.

Good luck to us all.

 

[scarlet]

""""This really is a difficult time for all of us here at AirTran. We came here with such high hopes of a "Southwest-esque" quality of life and management relationships"""

""I can't believe this is the best these guys are willing to offer. What a joke. I can't believe the senior guys are willing to sell out the rest of us. The whole thing stinks!""

Did you guys read THE WHOLE contract??

YOU are not southwest (450 aircraft to 130 aircraft) !
If you like SW GO THERE !!!

What stinks--you make more than a 777 captain at DAL CAL UAL.... You don't always get everything in a contract!! It is NEGOTIATING...you get something the company gets something back...THAT is how it works!!! The company is not going to give each and every little demand !!

You want new airplanes
You want new buses to ride on
You want a huge raise
You want new tugs
You want more rampers
You want to grow to new cities

I know that is your LIST !!

If airtran wants to hire MESA to come fly 25 aircraft and lose the ability to control those flight when they cancel and can't schedule anything right..AIRTRAN MGT. would be stupid to let someone else run their flights, it would not be long and they would cancel that crap, they tried that already=IT WAS stupid and Airtran MGT saw that!!

I say it will pass by 55-60%
I know alot of yes votes....One more point the NOs are always the loudest people.

 

[fletch717]

Just read the company letter. Fonaro should have said, hey marry my ex wife no no you will love her. she's not crazy I swear.