easydoesit
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AirTran TA2
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Lear70
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Bulletpoints are done, check out the link in my sig below.
Included two charts that show the proposed pay rates for both seats compared to current book as well as current book adjusted for inflation as well as industry average for each year.
The pay raises after Date Of Signing don't even keep up with inflation. You'll use part of your longevity raise each year just to keep up with the CPI (Consumer Price Index) increase.
The F/O pay rates are obviously sub-standard compared to the rest of the industry and we'll stay on them a LOT longer than previously thought.
The CA rates are less than current book adjusted for inflation, but are still right at industry average so they're "livable", although I'd like to see more since we'll likely not see larger aircraft like you would at a Legacy carrier, nor will we see Southwest pay rates anytime soon.
Combined with all the other concessions that are still in there (bulletpoints has them), leaves a pretty easy NO vote as compared to current book.
It's just not worth a quick $7 bucks to give up Scope, Scheduling rules, Reserve pay, or medical insurance INCREASES over an already-high premium base, not to mention continued CRAP hotels like DFW and PHL.
Will work on the long document next week when I go back to work.
Spread the word!
Included two charts that show the proposed pay rates for both seats compared to current book as well as current book adjusted for inflation as well as industry average for each year.
The pay raises after Date Of Signing don't even keep up with inflation. You'll use part of your longevity raise each year just to keep up with the CPI (Consumer Price Index) increase.
The F/O pay rates are obviously sub-standard compared to the rest of the industry and we'll stay on them a LOT longer than previously thought.
The CA rates are less than current book adjusted for inflation, but are still right at industry average so they're "livable", although I'd like to see more since we'll likely not see larger aircraft like you would at a Legacy carrier, nor will we see Southwest pay rates anytime soon.
Combined with all the other concessions that are still in there (bulletpoints has them), leaves a pretty easy NO vote as compared to current book.
It's just not worth a quick $7 bucks to give up Scope, Scheduling rules, Reserve pay, or medical insurance INCREASES over an already-high premium base, not to mention continued CRAP hotels like DFW and PHL.
Will work on the long document next week when I go back to work.
Spread the word!
Lear70
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Incidentally, did you watch the video? Had me laughing at the beginning, although I wonder how much we spent on that fancy intro music video?
Question: "Hourly rates for CA's increase by 17.5% and F/O's by 24%..."
Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong, but the LARGEST pay rate increases for CA's was for year 1 (which we don't have any of) 13.35%, and the LARGEST pay rate increase for F/O's was for 12.09% at year 12, or 11.2% for year 2, 3, and 4 F/O's (obviously a target demographic).
Where the HECK does he get those numbers? Does he even KNOW those numbers, or were they using what it increases to 3 years from now (which is less than inflation)?
"Don't rely on misinformation..." ? What about the misinformation you just gave, Allen?
Question: "Hourly rates for CA's increase by 17.5% and F/O's by 24%..."
Ummm... correct me if I'm wrong, but the LARGEST pay rate increases for CA's was for year 1 (which we don't have any of) 13.35%, and the LARGEST pay rate increase for F/O's was for 12.09% at year 12, or 11.2% for year 2, 3, and 4 F/O's (obviously a target demographic).
Where the HECK does he get those numbers? Does he even KNOW those numbers, or were they using what it increases to 3 years from now (which is less than inflation)?
"Don't rely on misinformation..." ? What about the misinformation you just gave, Allen?
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Do you all think that this will really pass? I wanted to come work for you guys but after reading what the company is proposing, and even worse, what your negotiators are calling a TA, I guess I'll just have to turn down my interview and stay where I'm at. Is your management intent on turning AirTran into regional with larger jets? Why would anyone leave a regional to work for a company with the same mentality of a regional?
In any case, good luck to you all over there and keep fighting. There is no reason to take a concessionary contract!
In any case, good luck to you all over there and keep fighting. There is no reason to take a concessionary contract!
The Victors
Well-known member
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If they vote in favor of a conncessionary contract that makes AT no better that VA or Skybus.
j41driver
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On TA1, they took the current book pay rate and compared it with the DOS +3 rates. Why not let the misinformation continue with TA2?
BTW - Why in the world to they even bother comparing TA2 to TA1??
Lear70
JAFFO
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Depends if we can get everyone on board with the concessions that still exist. Will take everyone out there discussing it with their fellow pilots. No need to be rude or belligerent, but giving them the information they need to combat the misinformation coming from the NPA is absolutely CRUCIAL!
If we can't get that information out there, it's going to be closer than I'd like to call.
Don't ever turn down an interview, unless you know for CERTAIN you wouldn't take the job and, right now, it's too early to say what will happen here.
Take the interview, wait to see what happens here. Rest assured we're working as hard as we can to get new leadership in that will junk the vast majority of this T.A. and start fresh with current book or better work rules.
This will be put out to vote within the next 2 weeks I'd guess, and fast-tracked 15 days so you'd know soon enough to keep from making the jump if you chose to stay put.
Right now, it's better than a regional simply for QOL. If this T.A. is passed, the reserves are screwed and it's "questionable" what they'd do with the rest of us.
Good question. This adversarial relationship seems to have only developed in the last 2-3 years. I didn't hear anything about it before I came over, but it was really just coming to the foreground then.
My impression is that they just don't want to face the reality that the pilots here no longer see this company as a stepping stone, we see it as a career stop and are bound and determined to KEEP it that way.
I agree, and thanks for the support. Good luck on the interview, if that's the way you choose to go. If they don't mess with our work rules and give us some decent pay raises, it'll remain a great place to be!
p.s. Will some of you check my links in my sig? Let me know if it's not working? Someone PM'd me and said they can't get it to load...? Thanks
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Lear70
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Because if they compare TA2 to the current Agreement, it will be obvious how much is still concessionary.
By comparing TA2 to TA1, all you see is improvements (except the 75-70 hour givebacks for reserves).
It's an old negotiating trick, basically lowering expectations and making a turd shine up real nice.
It's working. Good work, once again.
Lear70 -
You’ve done a great job with your presentation. I’m just confused with the 1st year FO pay chart. It’s listed as:
Current 42.75....Proposed 38.50....9.01% TA Increase
Since they want to lower the first year pay, shouldn’t it say Decrease or maybe have a minus sign in front of it?
Thanks…
Wish y’all the best!
You’ve done a great job with your presentation. I’m just confused with the 1st year FO pay chart. It’s listed as:
Current 42.75....Proposed 38.50....9.01% TA Increase
Since they want to lower the first year pay, shouldn’t it say Decrease or maybe have a minus sign in front of it?
Thanks…
Wish y’all the best!
SkiFishFly
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Are you refering to the current TA or the next one to come???
Are you really willing to give concessions on scope and reserve rules and door close and....
RadioClash
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Lear70
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eggxactly right.
Av8or, you're right, it automatically formatted for the math to a percentage increase rather than decrease. Need to redo the math on the part of the pdf file, good catch, thanks.
Yes, it's a pay cut for new-hires. Anyone hired after Date Of Signing comes in ad industry average or $38.50, whichever is higher, but nothing in the T.A. says exactly *how* they will figure that.
One of the many, many loopholes.
Edit: Links edited and fixed, if anyone else catches anything, please let me know. All help is appreciated!
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eggxactly right.
Av8or, you're right, it automatically formatted for the math to a percentage increase rather than decrease. Need to redo the math on the part of the pdf file, good catch, thanks.
Yes, it's a pay cut for new-hires. Anyone hired after Date Of Signing comes in ad industry average or $38.50, whichever is higher, but nothing in the T.A. says exactly *how* they will figure that.
One of the many, many loopholes.
I see, thanks for the clarification...Good luck to y'all and great job on the links and bullet points
Just thinking
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TA version
Fancy production value on the video, I think they put more effort into the video than they did the TA. Half hearted effort at best on the TA. They hammered out all of these changes to the LFO in one marathon session that started at one in the afternoon and completed 12 hours later? Imagine what they could have accomplished had they been focused, firm and fair thoughout the entire process?
Requested (via the web communications department) that they remove AP's rebuttal of DS's point paper until they allow all point papers to be posted on the website for all members to be able to read. Sent the same request to the NPA president. It is OUR website payed for by OUR dues. Let our voices and opinions be heard. Democracy can be quite liberating and maybe we can turn around this autocracy that has nosed its way into the tent.
Printed out the two page rebuttal along with the pay chart comparison and will be carrying it with me to "talk the talk."
SAP I language is weakened and nothing on SAP II... imagine that. Seniority allows you to hold a line with 15 days off only to see overflights and delays eat in to your days off to keep the airline going and get nothing for your efforts. Mediation will turn into a joke because the company will utilize a demanding schedule and once the NPA fails to respond on time, everything gets thrown out....
Leadership means you lead from the front... not one of the BOD has lead anyone. Talk about the ultimate flip-flop campaign. Shameful. YES-YES-NO
Fancy production value on the video, I think they put more effort into the video than they did the TA. Half hearted effort at best on the TA. They hammered out all of these changes to the LFO in one marathon session that started at one in the afternoon and completed 12 hours later? Imagine what they could have accomplished had they been focused, firm and fair thoughout the entire process?
Requested (via the web communications department) that they remove AP's rebuttal of DS's point paper until they allow all point papers to be posted on the website for all members to be able to read. Sent the same request to the NPA president. It is OUR website payed for by OUR dues. Let our voices and opinions be heard. Democracy can be quite liberating and maybe we can turn around this autocracy that has nosed its way into the tent.
Printed out the two page rebuttal along with the pay chart comparison and will be carrying it with me to "talk the talk."
SAP I language is weakened and nothing on SAP II... imagine that. Seniority allows you to hold a line with 15 days off only to see overflights and delays eat in to your days off to keep the airline going and get nothing for your efforts. Mediation will turn into a joke because the company will utilize a demanding schedule and once the NPA fails to respond on time, everything gets thrown out....
Leadership means you lead from the front... not one of the BOD has lead anyone. Talk about the ultimate flip-flop campaign. Shameful. YES-YES-NO
The negotiating committee and the NPA leadership certainly wasted the last few years of our lives. Thanks, guys. Now it's time to come back to the line. Gravy days are over. I know, we don't appreciate how hard you had it. If only we knew how tough it was . . . no one would want the job. Congratulations, you no longer have to do it.
The final TA is a joke. I actually understand anyone close to retirement, or even captains in the 70% percentile voting for it. It's just the way it goes. Self-interests. But if this thing gets any less than 70% No vote, something is seriously wrong.
Come on guys, you really need that signing bonus of a few thousand dollars this badly?
It's a pathetic TA. Wow, if it's under a 9 hour overnight, no van rides over 30 minutes. You tell 'em! And if it's over 22 hours, we'll be next to "tourist attractions."
Really, it's not even close. It's simply not worth discussing. It looks like a bad regional airline contract with decent pay rates for captains, low pay rates for FOs. If it passes, my God, look out competitors, your management will hold this thing up and say, "Look what we are competing against! You guys better follow suit."
The final TA is a joke. I actually understand anyone close to retirement, or even captains in the 70% percentile voting for it. It's just the way it goes. Self-interests. But if this thing gets any less than 70% No vote, something is seriously wrong.
Come on guys, you really need that signing bonus of a few thousand dollars this badly?
It's a pathetic TA. Wow, if it's under a 9 hour overnight, no van rides over 30 minutes. You tell 'em! And if it's over 22 hours, we'll be next to "tourist attractions."
Really, it's not even close. It's simply not worth discussing. It looks like a bad regional airline contract with decent pay rates for captains, low pay rates for FOs. If it passes, my God, look out competitors, your management will hold this thing up and say, "Look what we are competing against! You guys better follow suit."
RadioClash
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Against my better judgement I looked at TA 3 or whatever it is being called now and yep, still voting no. And yep, pi$$ed more than before.
There is not one thing in here to make me vote yes. I don't think I can type all of the issues I have with this TA. In a nutshell the whole thing sucks.
NO!
There is not one thing in here to make me vote yes. I don't think I can type all of the issues I have with this TA. In a nutshell the whole thing sucks.
NO!
Lear70
JAFFO
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The rates, at Date of Signing for F/O's are below not only all the Legacies, as well as Alaska, but also under Frontier who JUST SIGNED a contract and has been having profitability problems. Their scheduling section is better than ours as well.
The only airlines that make less than our F/O's year for year are ATA, Midwest, and Spirit.
This is the best we could do?
I don't think so.
The only airlines that make less than our F/O's year for year are ATA, Midwest, and Spirit.
This is the best we could do?
I don't think so.
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JOEBOYPILOT
New member
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- Mar 18, 2005
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I laughed my A$$ off at that video by AP.
Lets pass this New TA because its the best were gonna get and then use our FA's as an example????
WTF
If we don't pass will probably get parked for a year!
Awsome. Lets let the rest of the Industy get better pay and benefits post bankruptcy. Every time we've left the negotating table the compay has given us a better final offer. Just like the Midwest Buyouy. Lets take some time off --- I'm all for it.
I'm voting no again. If this turd passes I will follow all the other FO's out the door.
Lets pass this New TA because its the best were gonna get and then use our FA's as an example????
WTF
If we don't pass will probably get parked for a year!
Awsome. Lets let the rest of the Industy get better pay and benefits post bankruptcy. Every time we've left the negotating table the compay has given us a better final offer. Just like the Midwest Buyouy. Lets take some time off --- I'm all for it.
I'm voting no again. If this turd passes I will follow all the other FO's out the door.
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
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- 6,524
Yep! Still voting NO!!!
People need to hold this TA2 up to our current book and make that comparison. You will easily see how pitiful it is.
I read the new TA from start to finish but I refuse to listen to Allen Philpot (in writing, video or telephone) try to sell this pig. He needs to step down now and save us controversy of a recall vote. You too MS!!
People need to hold this TA2 up to our current book and make that comparison. You will easily see how pitiful it is.
I read the new TA from start to finish but I refuse to listen to Allen Philpot (in writing, video or telephone) try to sell this pig. He needs to step down now and save us controversy of a recall vote. You too MS!!
funnyman12
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I'm not saying whether I'm voting for it or not but I bet you it passes 60/40. Was flying today and the Captain had his laptop with the TA on it. We compared to the current contract. The 3 givebacks were the door closing, the PPO plan, and current reserve pay. If we lost 5 minutes every leg we would lose 5% per month. Realistically with underblock legs and 1-3 minute average of door close to movement it equates to about 2% concession. We both calculated about a 9% raise initially, so approx 7% raise. The current reserve pay everyone knew would be gone but we got long call reserve and min 12 days off. We retained most of the current book and some improvements. If the TA goes down, rumor has it the mediator is booked solid for 6 months. Is it worth 9 months delay for the door closing? It seems the company got some and we got some. The pay rates minus the Fo first year are industry standard with other equipment of the same size (airline pilot central). The opinion of the individuals on this website seem to be much more extreme and negative compared to the pilots I have talked to. Still I'm going to think long and hard before I cast my vote.
easydoesit
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