AirTran pilots

[PanPan]

If I cant display my "NO TA" tag, then I guess I will have to take the time to tell every pilot I see that I removed it per the crew message. It just might take me 30 minutes or more to make that journey from 1A over to D2.

Did anyone else notice how perfectly it fit on the Contract 2005 bag tag?

 

[Lear70]

Do you really think that the CPO msg. was directed at both sides of the issue? The company knows that this TA will go down in flames, they don't want passengers and other employee groups to see our obvious displeasure .

No, but I guess I could have posted both sides of it, as suggested, just didn't think it was necessary, given that it is, more than likely, in response to all the Vote No paraphernalia floating around ops.

I also don't think it came directly from FP... he doesn't strike me as someone who would get wrapped around the axle about it, although I could be wrong. He's been more than fair and helpful in the last year and change, as has everyone at that level of management.

I believe that directive came from higher up the food chain and, if they want me to take it off my bag, I will; that's fine. I still plan on going to the road shows as often as possible and distributing them there... Again, this isn't personal. I'm not "after the company", I simply came here for a REASON and that was, in large part, because of the work rules.

This T.A. directly affects those in a largely-negative way, and I won't apologize for campaigning against those changes and remaining current book until we can get something that DOES work for everyone.

 

[Thunderchief]

I hope everyone attends a COMPLETE road show.... I am on the fence now. Reserve WILL SUCK but at the benefit of everyone else. Not telling you to vote yes or no but, please go to a road show. I went to one at the NPA office and it was 3 hours of uninterrupted information and strategery that you cannot see in the TA....
-TC

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

I hope everyone attends a COMPLETE road show.... I am on the fence now. Reserve WILL SUCK but at the benefit of everyone else. Not telling you to vote yes or no but, please go to a road show. I went to one at the NPA office and it was 3 hours of uninterrupted information and strategery that you cannot see in the TA....
-TC

No need for a road show scope = NO!!!!!! 100 seat airplanes flown by a regional no thanks. If it has A on the tail we fly them. Don’t forget the gem that allows unlimited turbo props ( Ask Frontier how that is going with the Q400).

 

[j41driver]

I hope everyone attends a COMPLETE road show....

No need to go. You can put a dress on a pig, but in the end it's still a pig.

 

[Lear70]

I hope everyone attends a COMPLETE road show.... I am on the fence now. Reserve WILL SUCK but at the benefit of everyone else. Not telling you to vote yes or no but, please go to a road show. I went to one at the NPA office and it was 3 hours of uninterrupted information and strategery that you cannot see in the TA....
-TC

Yes, and much of it is incorrect.

I got a phone call this afternoon from another F/O who had been to a roadshow then read my list. The BOD is still claiming things that are NOT supported in writing and that, quite literally, are polar opposites of what is actually written in the sections.

The BOD was actually claiming that the 3.5 reserve pay for unused reserve days is still paid on top of guarantee. WTF? Nowhere in the new T.A.

We went through this at my last carrier, the company brought forth this great pairing generator based on relaxed work rules, and showed us a lot of really great things. Our MEC was smart enough to tell them they wanted a 90-day parallel bid to see how it would actually affect our lives.

The lines that were produced under ACTUAL company input was SO bad, that it never did pass, even 2 years after the company continuing to tweak it and do parallel bids.

The only "strategy" I hope is hiding behind the scenes is to get it voted DOWN by a large margin, and have more bargaining power going BACK for something that's better than current book.

This ain't it.

Again, if the work rule changes that IMPROVE our life are not IN WRITING, IN BLACK AND WHITE, then IT DOES NOT EXIST. Show it to me, prove it to me, or I have no choice but to vote NO.

 

[B73av8r]

My tag stays on.

 

[pit717]

i like women ...with wet shirts ...does that help?

 

[Citrusflyer]

No need for a road show scope = NO!!!!!! 100 seat airplanes flown by a regional no thanks. If it has A on the tail we fly them. Don’t forget the gem that allows unlimited turbo props ( Ask Frontier how that is going with the Q400).

Nothing like making an informed decision, way to go!

Go to the road show. Ask your questions, all of them. I did. All were answered, not all to my complete satisfaction; but that information combined with what is in black and white opened my eyes a lot. Lear has made many (OK more than many) fantastic points and some of the counterpoints to his information was well worth the time spent. Vent all you want on flightinfo, but atleast get the answers straight from the horses mouth. You owe yourself and the rest of us that!

 

[newnan]

Besides everything else Lear has mentioned, the 13 hour duty day is a big no for me. just ask the F/A's. They can be scheduled for 14 hour duty days with unlimited flying, ask any of them if they are sitting more or less. It's ready reserve at an outstation. It's actually quite embarrassing that the BOD buys into the companies sales pitch that this can somehow be good for us?

Another little tid-bit. There is still language saying captains can be junior assigned or extended to fly as F/O's. In the training section it does say that any right seat flying will be voluntary. We paid for a total rewrite to protect us against issues like this where one section says one thing and another says something contrary. I think we ought to send it back to get our money's worth.

PS I'm not throwing reserves under the bus to improve my quality of life because we don't need to. Even if I could believe the company would act in good faith and the planets were all in alignment and it was the 7th blue moon before the ammendable date and I could have a month of 2 and 3 day trips with no sit times that averaged 13 and 19 hours credit respectively, I would not vote for something that will end up drawing the lowest common denominators that will end up in my right seat.

PSS Been to a whole roadshow, saw full presentation, not all questions answered and brought up more questions. I'm further towards no than before. If you're not mgmts dream and are truly concerned about language and intent (not more promises and verbal side agreements and understandings) I also encourage you to go. It could very well solidify your no vote.

 

[SLEDNECK]

I hope everyone attends a COMPLETE road show.... I am on the fence now. Reserve WILL SUCK but at the benefit of everyone else. Not telling you to vote yes or no but, please go to a road show. I went to one at the NPA office and it was 3 hours of uninterrupted information and strategery that you cannot see in the TA....
-TC

Without proper scope, no one is safe from reserve, and besides, we are not in BK so why are we selling anyone out here with something less than we already have? In the top 10% and think it doesn't affect you? Wrong.

What would it have cost them to have a seniority based bucket system(that was published hourly) that allowed you to use your seniority to either be called first or last? I mean they have to have "x" many of reserves, what do they care who does them as long as they have their numbers? If your super senior and they are fat in your plane, you could bid reserve and USE YOUR SENIORITY to not fly. Or how about some pecking order while on reserve? If you've been on reserve for two years, at least you could be considered a "senior reserve" holder. It wouldn't have cost them nothing, but it wasn't bargained for because it wasn't a priority for the nc, OBVIOUSLY. This crap about how our reserve system is the best is insane. If it's so good, why isn't the senior guys bidding them? The reserve lines go extremely junior for a very good reason, reserve ALREADY SUCKS HERE!

THey want to sell out the junior people in order to make life better for the senior 10-20%. Those are the guys trying to pass this crap, and with good cause. They have little to lose and everything to gain from this TA. Them giving out the info and letting us decide is one thing, but trying to scare us with lies and threats is just another embarrassment from a long line of them from this union. Lear is right about the LOA's. If it doesn't pass, AP will just sign LOA after LOA and the company will get what they want. Why go to a road show when it isn't presented in objective manner? I've overheard it in the crew room, and it's just embarrassing that these are the guys representing us during such a critical time.

 

[SLEDNECK]

Nothing like making an informed decision, way to go!

Go to the road show. Ask your questions, all of them. I did. All were answered, not all to my complete satisfaction; but that information combined with what is in black and white opened my eyes a lot. Lear has made many (OK more than many) fantastic points and some of the counterpoints to his information was well worth the time spent. Vent all you want on flightinfo, but atleast get the answers straight from the horses mouth. You owe yourself and the rest of us that!

All you have to do is be able to read because they only thing that counts is what's in writing. The union and company promising certain things aren't going to happen doesn't cut it after it's signed. If it's so great, why the dog and pony show? Why not allow voting already? Because they have to add smoke and mirrors to make you overlook the details. Again, I'd be alot more open to the shows if they were a little more obvective and lot less threatening. Why not just present the facts and let everyone decide? While I obviously can't fault someone for going to the roadshow, I can't blame someone for not wanting to sit through the rest of the crap that they're adding. I just left the crewroom today because it was just too insulting to listen to.

 

[Citrusflyer]

All you have to do is be able to read because they only thing that counts is what's in writing. True. The union and company promising certain things aren't going to happen doesn't cut it after it's signed. If it's so great, why the dog and pony show? As far as I know every union has road shows, that's not new. Why not allow voting already? Good question, it does start next week according to MP, but the reason for the delay..who knows. Because they have to add smoke and mirrors to make you overlook the details. Again, I'd be alot more open to the shows if they were a little more obvective and lot less threatening. Threatening wasn't my experience, we were involved in a true back and forth Q&A. As I said earlier, it was eye opening. I don't doubt your word about how you felt, but go and make them answer for that one-on-one. Why not just present the facts and let everyone decide? I called them, point blank, on the complete amateurish way the whole announcement and follow on to the TA was handled (among many other actual contract related items). They admitted many mis-steps. Also, they were quite candid on some of the concessions and where they saw the realtive gains from those. Again, I'm not drinking the cool-aid (on either side) nor am I befuddled by "smoke and mirrors" as you put it. I read the TA (every word), I read Lear's points, again word for word. I just went the extra step and went to the source for further information. While I obviously can't fault someone for going to the roadshow, I can't blame someone for not wanting to sit through the rest of the crap that they're adding. I just left the crewroom today because it was just too insulting to listen to.

Basically all I was saying earlier is that the contract we work under now, and in the future is a legal doccument. Unfortunately, in our porfession it is coupled with A LOT of emotion. I think, and I don't want to speak for him, but Lear's postings are aimed at looking at this logically, and I was doing the same, the best way I know how. Everyone has to do the same, the best they know how as well.

 

[Ty Webb]

Can you guys read? It said no anti OR PRO TA stuff. You should be allowed whatever you want, but post the whole message....be honest about what was posted for crying out loud.

Find me one bag tag or sticker promoting the TA, and you might have a valid point . . . . :laugh:


.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

scope=NO!!!! Im very informed I can read.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Let me guess..."Coach" said you could not have the tag on your bag. I love to kick his ass

 

[Lear70]

Threatening wasn't my experience, we were involved in a true back and forth Q&A. As I said earlier, it was eye opening. I don't doubt your word about how you felt, but go and make them answer for that one-on-one.

They've backed off the scare-tactics and false information, to a certain extent, because they were getting a lot of backlash out of it.

I called them, point blank, on the complete amateurish way the whole announcement and follow on to the TA was handled (among many other actual contract related items). They admitted many mis-steps. Also, they were quite candid on some of the concessions and where they saw the realtive gains from those. Again, I'm not drinking the cool-aid (on either side) nor am I befuddled by "smoke and mirrors" as you put it. I read the TA (every word), I read Lear's points, again word for word. I just went the extra step and went to the source for further information.

I'd actually like to hear what they had to say, as the two times I've been in the "info sessions" I haven't heard any positive spins on the concessions that really can be proven in black and white.

However, you're doing EXACTLY what all of us should do.

Read the T.A. Read the pros and cons from each side's point of view. Go to the road shows and ask the hard questions and demand straightforward answers. Then go back and read the T.A. and pros and cons again.

Only then will you be in a position to make an informed decision.

Basically all I was saying earlier is that the contract we work under now, and in the future is a legal document. Unfortunately, in our profession it is coupled with A LOT of emotion. I think, and I don't want to speak for him, but Lear's postings are aimed at looking at this logically, and I was doing the same, the best way I know how. Everyone has to do the same, the best they know how as well.

You're absolutely right, it IS full of emotion. We are emotionally vested in these careers because we have sacrificed and through blood, sweat, and tears have made it here where we *thought* we didn't have to look any further for our careers. When you threaten people's Quality Of Life, of course they're going to get emotional.

We have to stay focused in not getting upset at each other. Personally, I believe this T.A. is going to fail. If you are in the "fence sitting" camp, but believe it will fail anyway, then help us out and give us more numbers to show at the bargaining table when they go back - a bigger NO turnout is more negotiating capital.

If not, then vote your conscience, and go spend some time with your family, as what will be, will be. Good luck to everyone, and thanks for reading my rants. :beer:

 

[T3700]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I can't find any limit to the amount of airport appreciation time they can schedule us for. Combine this with a 13 hour day and we can be assured of plenty of free ready reserve time (on the last day of the trip)

 

[captainj]

but with a 13 hr day at would have no reason to make us sit RR. We all know they would do every thing possable to minimize our sit time.

 

[Lear70]

Maybe I'm missing it, but I can't find any limit to the amount of airport appreciation time they can schedule us for. Combine this with a 13 hour day and we can be assured of plenty of free ready reserve time (on the last day of the trip)

For lineholders, it's in there, but only by merit of the 5 hour hotel clause.

As a lineholder, if your last leg back to domicile from a trip is a deadhead, they can leave you at the outstation for up to 5 hours before your deadhead has to depart. 5:01 and you can make them give you a hotel room for this. 4:59, you're sitting in the terminal in uniform in a chair somewhere. Current book prohibits this by saying they have to put you on the first flight out to return you to base.

As a reserve, they can now sit you for up to 6 hours without a hotel and call it a "ready reserve assignment". There's no requirement for the departing flight to leave from the outstation coming back within that 6 hours either and no hotel provision for the reserve pilot, so they could technically fly you one leg out, sit you for 6 hours, then make you wait another hour or two for the next flight scheduled after your ready reserve sit.

Those are extreme examples using the maximum boundaries (or lack thereof) in the verbiage, but the possibility is there, and if they ever need to use it for operational integrity, you can bet they will.

Senior pilots are NOT exempt from this, as there is NO guarantee they will build pairings with less sit time. In fact, because of the 4.5 Average Day, you can bet that when our peak travel seasons are gone (Fall and Winter), you WILL get

- 3-day trips with 6 hours day 1, a 24-30 hour sit in an outstation hotel, then 6 hours day 3, worth 13.5 hours instead of the 16 we enjoy now.
- airport appreciation on almost every trip which will leave you reassignable.
- deadheads at the end of trips and being left at outstations on the last leg for hours.

This is what happens when productivity goes down... they save money by parking the crews but still leaving them open for utilization. It's happened at EVERY airline that has gone to an average day that's not very high.

I also find it interesting that we compared wages to bankrupt Delta, and they have an average day but it's well over 5 hours. Again, why do we not get "industry average" in some areas, when we're forced to take it as a concession in others?

OK, back to work...

 

[captainj]

fod walk

lets all help out the cp office and volunteer for the fod walk. they have been so helpfull this last week with the TA!

 

[AFcitrus]

Talked to a BoD member today. After I very calmly asked him what the hell he was doing endorsing this pig, he said the following and I paraphrase:

"After I voted in favor of it, I realized I had buyers remorse.... We (BoD members) have gone to AP and told him in no uncertain terms that they had made a mistake and he should ease up on the sell..."

I asked why they rushed to endorse something without having Q and A's in writing, reading it carefully over several days and thereby blowing all the pre-MEH meeting leverage we had. He said something about the company doing a masterful job of leaking the TA agreement and that they were "forced" to send it to the pilots. I couldn't figure that statement out.

- You mean Kolski put a gun to their heads and said "endorse this POS or die"

I also started to delineate all of the concessions we made. When I got to the DH window/isle/forward cabin guarantee he said it was an improvement. He said we now get Business class seats. I promptly said I think that has something to do with DH to a red-eye and he said no - it is for all DH.

These guys had no idea what they endorsed. Only now that a few (hundred) people have informed them of what they missed are they "backpeddling".

Guys - Everyone reading this needs to email all BoD members and demand that this TA be put out of its (our) misery. Having talked with a few people, I don't think we are even going to vote on this at all. The sooner we demand this from the BoD, the sooner that decision will be announced. The company and AP already know that this is DOA. They don't want the embarrassment of having this show up on the front page of the USA today. Let's kill it, replace the NC and AP, and install people who care.

 

[ultrarunner]

This is incredible. The company brass must be laughing everyday...you got the union members pissed off at their own MEC...you got 'em pissed off at their own NC.....

I bet the company just loves this $hit!

Is it any wonder why unions are going down the $hitter?

This is a great example.

 

[Lear70]

This is incredible. The company brass must be laughing everyday...you got the union members pissed off at their own MEC...you got 'em pissed off at their own NC.....

I bet the company just loves this $hit!

Is it any wonder why unions are going down the $hitter?

This is a great example.

And you think we should be congratulating them and buying them beers for bringing us a contract that is concessionary in almost every section?

Who SHOULD we hold accountable? Obviously someone dropped the ball here, so who do you replace to make sure it doesn't happen again?

I'm waiting for a reasonable response, given what WE are going through...

 

[snuba]

For starters AP should be recalled and the neg. committee replaced. It is an absolute tragedy we have such a worthless TA. After going thru this very concessionary TA I have no confidence in our union as it stands now.

 

[T3700]

The only place I can find five hours and they have to give you a hotel, deals with time between pairings, not between flights. Can you tell me where you found the five hours between flights? (five hours is too long anyways)

 

[Lear70]

That's part of the problem, they use a lot of language interchangeably and have NO definitions section in this T.A. like our current CBA alots for.

But, what you're looking for is in Section 20 - hotels:

20.4 - "Hotel rooms will be provided in the following instances:"

20.A.4.c - "Where scheduled/reassigned ground time is expected to exceed five (5) hours at any station at the time of assignment or reassignment".

So yes, it's still in there, just a different place than what you're looking at.

 

[Lear70]

One of the main things that irritates me is their use of misdirection, like on the NPA site right now under the Contract 2007 page, they have this new, pretty chart that shows what you will make over the next 4 years of this contract including your longevity increases.

The problem is that they're not showing you what you will make under current book over the next 4 years, they're just throwing the big numbers out of the proposed rate increases over current book.

For instance, a 3-year CA now makes $106.30 an hour. 4 years from now, if we didn't get a new contract, that CA would be on year 6 pay making $123.50 an hour. That's an increase of 13.18%

You look at their chart and it shows the proposed increase in 4 years at $140.17 versus current book at $106.30 is a 31.87% increase, but you were going to get 13.18% of that anyway, so this contract only gains you an 18.69% pay raise over 4 years.

If you take 3 years of no COLA raises at 2.5% per year to be conservative, is 7.6% cumulative. Take that out another 4 years is 18.86% for 7 years of ONLY COLA raises.

So, in terms of pure spendable money after you cover the increased cost of food, utilities, gas, etc, you will only see a roughly 13% increase over 4 years, or 3.3% per year Longevity raise for the term of this T.A.

And that doesn't count the work rule concessions of 3-5% of base pay.

We might actually end up in the hole unless we work more days per month if the line construction changes and they take full advantage of that 4.5 hour average day.

 

[captainj]

my phone wont stop ringing. short captains 8 open trips at 7am all reserve gone. I dont even want to come in for my trips why would I ever want to fix there problems.

 

[UALX727]

Lear,

I was explaining the same thing you just said to a buddy of mine in the crew room yesterday. The pay raise percentages are very misleading. What you have to do is really look at the difference between where you would be in 4 years on the current contract, and then compare to where you would be in 4 years under the new contract. For example:

I am a 5 year captain, under current book I make per hour:

2007-120.01 (5 yr. cpt)
2008-123.50 (6 yr. cpt)
2009-127.15 (7 yr. cpt)
2010-131.87 (8 yr. cpt)

Now we look at what the new rates would be if the TA passes:

2007-129.13 (5 yr. cpt)
2008-136.06 (6 yr. cpt)
2009-143.03 (7 yr. cpt)
2010-149.21 (8 yr. cpt)

The NPA chart shows that I would make a gain of 24.33%. They get this figure by taking a current book 2007 cpt pay of 120.01 (current 5 yr. cpt pay) and compare it to the new TA cpt pay 4 years down the road of 149.21(8 yr. cpt pay).

And yes, they are correct, the chart shows an increase of 24.33% over 4 years. However, this 24.33% assumes that I stay at 120.01 an hour over the next 4 years. We all know that this will never happen, as I will continue to get yearly pay increases under the current book, that will take me up to my current book 2010 pay of 131.87. They got this 24.33% by taking 120.01 and comparing it to 149.21. So the difference is a 29.20 an hour gain, or 24.33%. Not realistic, assumes a pay freeze for the next 4 years.

If you really wanted to know what the true increase actually is, using my example, you would have to take where you would be 4 years down the road on current book (131.87/ hr) and compare that to where you would be 4 years down the road under the new TA (149.21/hr). Doing the math, you really only gain 17.34 an hour. This is the true comparison as to where you would stand under the current book vs. where you would be under the new TA 4 years down the road.

In this case, this represents a real gain of 14.45% versus the 24.33% that the NPA put out, thats a HUGE difference!!!!

I believe every Airtran pilot needs to do the same analysis on their own situation, some may be bigger or smaller than this. Like I said, this is the situation of a 5 year captain(my present position).

Like you said Lear, looking at the concessionary stuff in here, the lack of COLA raises for the last 2 years, this isn't much of a raise at all. And that's not even taking inflation into account.

The NPA needs to compare apples to apples....right now that chart is pumping this thing as a huge pay raise when it isn't. The only guys this chart is accurate for are the senior guys who aren't getting any more raises under current book. In that situation, the chart would show accurate raise percentages. So in essence, the senior guys would be benefitting big-time if this thing goes through.