AirTran pilots

[DC10]

UALX727,

You'll never make anywhere near those figures promised in the new TA. If this thing goes through, you, me and every other year 4-7 captain will be flying a shiny new EMB-190 that will replace all the 717s, at greatly reduced small jet payrates.

My vote is NO for ANY TA containing small jet pay scales, regardless of whatever else is in there.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

what are the competetive mins these days at tran?

 

[Murphy]

I did the comparison of current book vs proposed TA through 2013 and it was just over 6% more money. 8.7% pay increase and then I deducted 2.5% for the work rule changes. I looked at Jan to May to look at the work rules. You have to apply all the work rule changes at once and you have to take AP's word that core block is a 6 minute loss per leg. You can't just say door loss is this % loss, avg day is this much, core block is this %, and the duty rigs are this % loss and add them all together cumulatively.

Observations:
- Door impacts you if you overblock
- 2-1 duty rig never kicked in. If you work 10-12 hrs, you are going to fly more than the 2-1 rig, at least on the 717.
- 4.5 avg day kicks in on poorly constructed trips but the 3.5:1 trip rig protects you, but you still lose money. This will probably impact the 737 side more with the west coast flying.
- Core block really impacts because then the change in door payment kicks in on the lower block time.

Don't get me started on the reserve rules. Moveable days. Change the days three days prior. Moveable days two days prior to two days after your scheduled days. Ready reserve and follow on assignments after a flight assignment. Not signing up for that ever, not ever.

 

[UALX727]

The actual percentage rate that I came up with is simply looking at where you would be in 4 years at current book vs. where you would be in 4 years with the TA.(For myself, it was 14.45% raise. The NPA said I would see a 24.33% raise which is not accurate).

The 14.45% raise was strictly the hourly increase I would see. I see what you guys are saying, you would now have to adjust this number to reflect all of the givebacks. This would decrease it even more (door close giveback, core credit time stuff, reserve pay givebacks, and even then look at the inflation rate going forward, and take into consideration the COLA raise we never recieved over the last few years).

To be fair to the 12 year plus guys, they would not get the yearly raises the rest of us would get on the current contract going forward, so maybe it isn't as big of a gain for them as I originally thought.

I also agree, we should not cave on the scope. Why do we need to give that up??? At this point I truly believe that our current contract is actually a better deal than the TA. Currently we keep the scope stuff, keep the door time, keep the reserve system, no doctors notes, no 3 times not recommmended for checkride BS, and a bunch of other stuff.

I am voting no. I haven't heard anything else to convince me otherwise. I haven't gone to a road show and I see no point to it. The cave on the scope and the reserve rules make it an automatic no.

 

[Lear70]

That's great work, guys. I'm just happy people are really analyzing this stuff rather than just buying off on what I say or what the roadshows are saying...

Spread the word!

DC10, I'm right there with you, as I believe that's EXACTLY what management has planned, starting with the Embraer orders in 12-18 months then the phase-out of the 717's beginning in the next 2-3 years.

 

[UALX727]

Here is another scenario that could be played out a year or two from now with those new small jet pay scales:

Company to Union: "Guys, we want to replace all of the 717 flying with the E-190. We can operate that airplane at an even cheaper CASM than we can on the 717."

Union to Company: "No, we don't want that. All of our 717 guys will be bumped over to the lower paying E-190 payscales."

Now company can play let's make a deal.......

Companies response: "Well, let's see here. We would consider not buying the E-190's if we could just get our CASM down on the 717 to near where it is on the E-190. Hmmmm...... If we could figure out new 717 payscales to bring our CASM down to the E-190 CASM, we may consider keeping the 717's ."

Now the union is forced to either reduce the payrates on the 717 to keep them on the property or face replacement with the E-190's and the much lower payscale.

These lower payscales help the company in two ways. First, it puts the union in a bind to be whipsawed by the threat of the E-190 and it's horrible rates. Secondly, it gives the company leverage to get a much better deal on the 717's from Boeing if Boeing believes that we truly want the E-190.

And all along the company really just wants to keep the 717's, and is using the E-190 as a tool to negotiate concessions from the pilot group and Boeing.

 

[twepilot]

anyone know facts about when the leases are up on the 71's??

RV

 

[CitationLover]

anyone know facts about when the leases are up on the 71's??

RV

the 25 MEH one's are 20 yr leases with the first expiring in 2023.

from the air tran annual report

We lease 79 B717 aircraft through various lessors, under leases with terms that expire through 2022. We have the option to renew the B717 leases for periods ranging from one to four years. The B717 leases have purchase options at or near the end of the lease term at fair market value, and two have purchase options based on a stated percentage of the lessor’s defined cost of the aircraft at the end of the thirteenth year of the lease term. Each of the leases contains return conditions that must be met prior to the termination of the leases. Forty-one of the B717 leases are the result of sale/leaseback transactions. Deferred gains from these transactions are being amortized over the terms of the leases. At December 31, 2006 and 2005, unamortized deferred gains were $59.7 million and $62.4 million, respectively. We also lease facilities from local airport authorities or other carriers, as well as office space under operating leases with terms ranging up to 12 years. In addition, we lease spare engines and certain rotables under capital leases.

 

[UALX727]

Good point on the leases. I imagine there has to be some loophole or clause that would let them dump the 717's early, maybe with a penalty of some sort. But in general, everything is negotiable if the price is right. I am sure they could work something out with Boeing on the 717's in exchange for more 737 orders.

My main point is that we don't want those small jet pay rates in the TA at all. This just gives the company leverage in the future against the NPA.

Or another scenario, which I saw used at a regional that I once worked for, is to use the "carrot jet" scenario. Basically, the company tells the union that they are going to get E-190's (in our case). They say that AirTran pilots can fly them or they can contract it out to (insert name of regional airline). However, (regional airline X) will fly them for rates below ours. So if the AirTran pilots want to keep the flying, we need to lower our small jet payscale even further.

The union doesn't want to see the flying get outsourced, so eventually they cave and AirTran pilots get the flying at an even further reduced pay than what the TA shows now.

 

[CitationLover]

Good point on the leases. I imagine there has to be some loophole or clause that would let them dump the 717's early, maybe with a penalty of some sort. But in general, everything is negotiable if the price is right. I am sure they could work something out with Boeing on the 717's in exchange for more 737 orders.

I doubt boeing would allow them to simply dump them for Embraer. Even a few more 737's isn't going to help.

Don't know why everyone has a hardon for the 190, it has what seems a very low dispatch rate. jetBlue and USAirways are not happy with Embraer right now.

My main point is that we don't want those small jet pay rates in the TA at all. This just gives the company leverage in the future against the NPA.

Or another scenario, which I saw used at a regional that I once worked for, is to use the "carrot jet" scenario. Basically, the company tells the union that they are going to get E-190's (in our case). They say that AirTran pilots can fly them or they can contract it out to (insert name of regional airline). However, (regional airline X) will fly them for rates below ours. So if the AirTran pilots want to keep the flying, we need to lower our small jet payscale even further.

The union doesn't want to see the flying get outsourced, so eventually they cave and AirTran pilots get the flying at an even further reduced pay than what the TA shows now.

I doubt it. It appears 70 seats has been the breaking point with mainline. If management keeps posting profits then what economic sad story can they muster? With the Embraer 190 with 717 pay rates it still saves them labor costs as there is one less FA. Republic only pays a little less than US Airways in terms of CA pay (a lot less on FO), so I cannot see too much in savings for going to a regional operation. Stand your ground, you already have small narrowbody pay established in the 717 rates.

All the more reason for no relaxing of the current scope (in fact tightening it).

MEH offer extended to August 10th.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Good point on the leases. I imagine there has to be some loophole or clause that would let them dump the 717's early, maybe with a penalty of some sort. But in general, everything is negotiable if the price is right. I am sure they could work something out with Boeing on the 717's in exchange for more 737 orders.

My main point is that we don't want those small jet pay rates in the TA at all. This just gives the company leverage in the future against the NPA.

Or another scenario, which I saw used at a regional that I once worked for, is to use the "carrot jet" scenario. Basically, the company tells the union that they are going to get E-190's (in our case). They say that AirTran pilots can fly them or they can contract it out to (insert name of regional airline). However, (regional airline X) will fly them for rates below ours. So if the AirTran pilots want to keep the flying, we need to lower our small jet payscale even further.

The union doesn't want to see the flying get outsourced, so eventually they cave and AirTran pilots get the flying at an even further reduced pay than what the TA shows now.

Oh you're just being paranoid. We should just trust these guys.

BTW Anyone heard of the NO TA sticker/tag issue reaching critical mass yet?

 

[Ty Webb]

Look guys, it's pretty simple-

The economics of supporting a tiny fleet like the 717 and the liability from the Rolls-Royce engines make it very attractive to Boeing to do away with the fleet.

With that in mind, rest assured that we are negotiating for a replacement, and probably with Boeing, Embraer, Bombardier, and who knows else. On the table will be assuming the leases for the 717 fleet, like trading in a car.

The Company has showed their hand very clearly; unfortunately, Allen and the BoD are always on the defense and don't have the big picture.

The Scope provisions, the small jet rates, and the reserve rules say it all, brotha, and what it says, louder than anything, is "Teamsters".

.

 

[BFL370]

Ty,
It took 4 years to get 40 737 with it already on the certificate and guys who had letters from the FAA to teach. So how long would it take to get the E190/195 a while. Thats part of the big picture. The point is they wont show up over night. But you would look good pulling the gear handle in the right seat.

 

[Lear70]

Part of the issue behind taking 3 years to get 45 737's is the delivery schedule from Boeing.

Northwest has spooled up Embraer certificate addition and deliveries inside 18 months. It can be done if you want it bad enough.

That's the big problem. We don't *know* the company's plans, so we have to assume the worst. If we don't, we possibly screw ourselves, and most of us don't want to be back in the same old boat of trying to find a better job after ours turns bad.

Better to just keep what we have and start again on negotiations.

 

[Ty Webb]

Sehr gut?

Ty,
It took 4 years to get 40 737 with it already on the certificate and guys who had letters from the FAA to teach. So how long would it take to get the E190/195 a while. Thats part of the big picture. The point is they wont show up over night.

Well, I guess they'll let anyone with ten bucks and a keyboard on flightinfo.com now, won't they? Willkommen . . . .

It took 3 years to get 45 737 on the property, not four, and that means the 717 will be replaced under the life of this contract. . . . which means a 7 year B717 CA could be displaced into the RJ at $95./hour, or find himself on reserve on the 737 under those new rules. No, thanks.

This TA is destined for the sh!tpile, where it so rightly belongs . . . . and my prediction is that it will be followed by a major house-cleaning at NPA, or the voting in of a truly national union.

you would look good pulling the gear handle in the right seat.

And you'd look good in a cell next to Parker.


.

 

[EMBATP]

as far as waiting for the 190s, i will give you this example....

continental express was not supposed to be the launch customer for the e145....some airline in austrailia was....next thing you know, who gets the airplane first? coex

if they want the airplane bad enough it will happen...

 

[Lear70]

Well, I guess they'll let anyone with ten bucks and a keyboard on flightinfo.com now, won't they? Willkommen . . . .

Hmmm... who's German?

It took 3 years to get 45 737 on the property, not four, and that means the 717 will be replaced under the life of this contract. . . . which means a 7 year B717 CA could be displaced into the RJ at $95./hour, or find himself on reserve on the 737 under those new rules. No, thanks.

It's better than that. Take a look at the proposed T.A.'s Sec. 6 regarding displacements:

6.F.7 - Displaced Pilots will bid for and be awarded ANY assignment THAT THEIR SENIORITY CAN HOLD. If a displaced pilot causes another pilot to be displaced, then that other pilot will bid for and be awarded any assignment THAT HIS SENIORITY CAN HOLD. The process will continue until all displaced Pilots have been awarded.

What the means is that as the Embraers come on board, the junior guys on BOTH the 717 and 737 start displacing each other in order to retain the higher pay as long as they can. Eventually, when the last 717 goes away, the most senior 717 Captain bumps the most junior 737 Captain, then the 737 Captains go down into an Embraer CA spot, then the most junior Embraer CA displaces the most junior 737 F/O, and the 737 F/O gets displaced to Embraer F/O.

Basically, you will give over 75% of the seniority list a pay cut in one way or another by the time this whole thing is over. NO ONE is safe, unless you're in the top 25% of the seniority list.

In addition, if they suspend the 737 deliveries while they do this, there is ZERO growth, and that 4-year upgrade they based the absolute CRAP F/O wages on jumps to 8-10 years.

Does anyone want to be a 7-10 year F/O here? I don't. Is the above scenario possible? Absolutely. Is it likely? Who knows. That's the problem, and we have to base our vote on the worst-case scenario, or you're just setting yourself up to be hosed if it becomes the company's "best interest" plan.

This TA is destined for the sh!tpile, where it so rightly belongs . . . . and my prediction is that it will be followed by a major house-cleaning at NPA, or the voting in of a truly national union.

Hope you're right... don't care one way another about NPA vs. Teamsters, but I really have NO urge to send the same guys back in to negotiate again. They're WAY to close and personally vested to this T.A. to really trust again in that position.

No offense, if any of you NC guys are reading this, but you REALLY, REALLY should have paid more attention to your Wilson Polling data. Thinking you somehow knew better and could bring something this substandard to us is pure egotism and has NO place at the bargaining table.

And you'd look good in a cell next to Parker.
.

Ouch. Dude... play nice!

 

[Wesb737fo]

Part of the issue behind taking 3 years to get 45 737's is the delivery schedule from Boeing.

Northwest has spooled up Embraer certificate addition and deliveries inside 18 months. It can be done if you want it bad enough.

That's the big problem. We don't *know* the company's plans, so we have to assume the worst. If we don't, we possibly screw ourselves, and most of us don't want to be back in the same old boat of trying to find a better job after ours turns bad.

Better to just keep what we have and start again on negotiations.

I just can't figure out why the N.C. sent us this thing. If I have the time to attend a road show tomorrow, I will do it and ask that question in person.

Lear, I agree with you 100% about companies negotiating concessions and not using them. If we sign this thing, then I would be shocked if we didn't see and E-190 deal ASAP. Shortly followed by a deal with an 86 seat RJ operator putting around 20 of those on property (for $100 /hr cheaper they can find the gate space)

Any takers on who they would get to do it. Republic? Who else operates E-170's or E-190's?

Would this happen overnight, surely not, but maybe over two or three years.

I heard a couple of line pilots say they want these aircraft to supplement growth not replace it. I heard another pilot say "The leases on the B-717's aren't up for years". Once again, if you could operate an 86 and 100 seat jet for 30-50% less labor cost, wouldn't you find a way out of those leases.

Somebody please point out the flaw in my thinking. I don't want to dictate to the company on how to grow the business, but if we are going to be flying these 100 seaters, we should get a better rate and we shouldn't farm out any flying over 70 seats (including turbo-props)

 

[pilotinfo]

The NPA has been made aware that there is a call to engage in delay of flights and other activities directed against AirTran Airways, Inc. Please be aware that the National Pilot's Association disavows any such call or action and the NPA neither authorizes or condones any effort to incite or encourage a job action. The NPA further asks that anyone encouraging or considering such an effort cease doing so immediately.

Captain Allen Philpot, President-National Pilot's Association

 

[ultrarunner]

And you think we should be congratulating them and buying them beers for bringing us a contract that is concessionary in almost every section?

Who SHOULD we hold accountable? Obviously someone dropped the ball here, so who do you replace to make sure it doesn't happen again?

I'm waiting for a reasonable response, given what WE are going through...

Dropped the ball???? That would be the membership, right? Your MEC are elected officials, right???

Not sure of the type of logical response you're looking for. It's your MEC. Obviously the do not speak for you. So, have you and your members started the recall process?

 

[ultrarunner]

The NPA has been made aware that there is a call to engage in delay of flights and other activities directed against AirTran Airways, Inc.

Hold on...let me get this straight....the Airtran pilot union's own people negotiate a TA and the membership doesn't like it, so it's going to take it's anger out on the entire company.

You have GOT to be joking!

What was that I said about unions headed down the toilet?

Now you know why!

 

[USARET]

The NPA has been made aware that there is a call to engage in delay of flights and other activities directed against AirTran Airways, Inc. Please be aware that the National Pilot's Association disavows any such call or action and the NPA neither authorizes or condones any effort to incite or encourage a job action. The NPA further asks that anyone encouraging or considering such an effort cease doing so immediately.

Captain Allen Philpot, President-National Pilot's Association

Allen, the only thing that I have heard is in the works is an effort to recall you and the rest of the BOD /NC once this TA is voted down. I don't believe that qualifies as an illegal job action.

 

[newnan]

The NPA has been made aware that there is a call to engage in delay of flights and other activities directed against AirTran Airways, Inc. Please be aware that the National Pilot's Association disavows any such call or action and the NPA neither authorizes or condones any effort to incite or encourage a job action. The NPA further asks that anyone encouraging or considering such an effort cease doing so immediately.

Captain Allen Philpot, President-National Pilot's Association

bump.....

 

[Lear70]

Dropped the ball???? That would be the membership, right? Your MEC are elected officials, right???

How does the membership drop the ball on negotiations when we are not the ones negotiating?

We stated what we wanted in the Wilson Polling, we had an extremely good voter turnout for the last BOD President election, and up to 10% of the pilot group had answered the call for informational picketing, even though the BOD wasn't emailing directly and asking people to volunteer directly.

That's as much as we, the membership, should really be accountable for. If the BOD doesn't follow the direction of the Wilson Polling, then it's not the Membership that's to blame.

Not sure of the type of logical response you're looking for. It's your MEC. Obviously the do not speak for you. So, have you and your members started the recall process?

Yup. 3 different recall efforts went out last week. Trying to consolidate them under one mass effort and trying to make sure they don't get overzealous and recall the ENTIRE BOD.

We don't need that kind of instability. Replace the ringleaders who engineered this P.O.S., replace the NC, take 4-6 months to get all our ducks in a row, then start again.

Yes, we're taking action to fix it. That's what a responsible membership does when the elected officials go off on a tangent unsupported by the Wilson Polling data, i.e. the membership's direction.

 

[ultrarunner]

Lear, thanks for your response. Has anyone actually sat down with your NC and asked them what their motivation was? Not that it matters at this point, but it's possible you could replace them with folks that will have the SAME motivations.

It would seem a simple matter to oust the ring-leaders and simply elect the replacements AFTER CAREFUL SCREENING. Then you know exactly the message which would be delivered by your NC.

 

[Lear70]

Hold on...let me get this straight....the Airtran pilot union's own people negotiate a TA and the membership doesn't like it, so it's going to take it's anger out on the entire company.

You have GOT to be joking!

What was that I said about unions headed down the toilet?

Now you know why!

Hold on there, kemosabe... That's not what happened.

1. The company is using posts here on Flightinfo as basis for that "claim" by the company that there is a work stoppage being incited amongst the pilot group. Go back and read all the threads; NO ONE is saying to do ANYTHING job-related in response to this T.A. or in response to anything else.

2. I've been flying the line, am one of the people heading up the VOTE NO resistance, and I haven't heard a D*MN thing about any kind of job action. People are angry, but most of us are angry at the NPA, not the company.

3. There is absolutely NO reason to start any kind of work action at this point in time and we would NOT do so without being released per the RLA. Right now, we have not been released from the mediator into self help. Right now we really don't NEED to be released by the mediator into self-help, as this has all happened at this company before during the LAST round of negotiations. Bad T.A. comes out, gets voted down, new T.A. comes out, gets voted in.

No one has advocated ANYTHING other than voting this down and returning to the table with new negotiators and some changes in union leadership, all per the RLA. Period.

Incidentally, this isn't a public message board, it's a PRIVATE message board. You have to apply and pay for access and agree to abide by the rules of the forum and can be removed at any time with no recourse. If you don't do those things, you can't see or respond to the posts, so the company can't claim we're posting thoughts or opinions which are contrary to the best interest of the company on a PUBLIC forum... we're not.

The claim that people on this board are inciting people to illegal action per the RLA is unfounded, unsupported, and ludicrous.

 

[Lear70]

I do, however, have to give Kudos to the BOD for responding to the company's bag tag and sticker memo that came out on Crew Trac last week.

The letter from our attorneys was direct, concise, and let the company know, in no uncertain terms, that it was discriminatory to allow one set of tags and stickers for 2 1/2 years then suddenly decide they didn't like the new sticker and bag tags which simply advocated voting NO and returning to the table, not to mention a violation of the RLA to prohibit our ability to discuss pros and cons and vote without interference.

First good thing I've seen out of the BOD since last year. THAT'S the kind of response that lets the company know we aren't putting up with that kind of foolishness. Good job.

 

[Lear70]

Lear, thanks for your response. Has anyone actually sat down with your NC and asked them what their motivation was? Not that it matters at this point, but it's possible you could replace them with folks that will have the SAME motivations.

Yes, they have. Some of it can be discussed, some of it can't.

The long and short of it is:

1. They're scared what the company will do in a merger, which most of us understand is ridiculous and completely unfounded.

2. They're scared the company will be released into self-help and impose the contract THEY want and dare us to strike, believing we won't. According to the numbers we have, we DO have the solidarity to strike, should we be released.

3. They really think the pay is OK, even in light of the pay cuts from work rules and they don't understand just how badly we could be affected by the work rule changes if the company decided to really push the envelope. They've shown they don't understand by having absolutely NO response to our concerns when backed by actual T.A. language.

They're basically scared and don't want to fight anymore and risk the unknowns of merger or mediator action. Well, too bad. Life's not without risk, and I believe the odds are in our favor.

It would seem a simple matter to oust the ring-leaders and simply elect the replacements AFTER CAREFUL SCREENING. Then you know exactly the message which would be delivered by your NC.

That's the idea. Have to get one thing done at a time. First reject the T.A. with as good a NO vote as we can get. Second, clean house. Third, go back in with new people, new priorities, and keep the troops rallied while they're still good and P.O.'d.

 

[Lowrider717]

That's part of the problem, they use a lot of language interchangeably and have NO definitions section in this T.A. like our current CBA alots for.

But, what you're looking for is in Section 20 - hotels:

20.4 - "Hotel rooms will be provided in the following instances:"

20.A.4.c - "Where scheduled/reassigned ground time is expected to exceed five (5) hours at any station at the time of assignment or reassignment".

So yes, it's still in there, just a different place than what you're looking at.

What if they cancel a turn and you have 5:01 or more before your next leg. Not a scheduled, not really reassignment, just a cancellation. Under current contract this exact situation has happened to me maybe 3-4 times (6.5 yr capt) and I've been able to get a room provided. The Q/A doesn't address this particular, but is SUGGESTS that if the whole five plus hour delay(till the next leg) occurs up front, then you'd get the room. I guess we just assume that.

Doesn't matter, I'm still voting NO.

Awsome job on the analying LEAR & CO. Good work.

The BoD should have invited just such scrutiny (like an FAA NPRM) before endorsement. I guess they were in too much of a rush.

Maybe its just me but the NPA made a big deal about how many extra pages of Q/A there were. Is that because of the bigger font or spacing? They still seem lacking to me.

 

[captainj]

at no time was I trying to sugest anything but voicing my displeasure at the threats by the cp. any action implyed by this post would only be free speach. unlike the threats by the cp office trying to stop influance this election through threats of time off work for talking or displaying our view on this ta.