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PCL_128 said:
The pay issue is already out of the way. Because the ATN pilot group is less than 35% of the combined group, the SWAPA contract is automatically the surviving contract when the pilot groups are merged, and SWAPA is the surviving union. There doesn't have to be a JCBA negotiation. So, in effect, we already have a JCBA. It's just the current SWA contract.
Click to expand...

Well, there you go. IF that is true, then the arbitrators won't even have to look at the pay issues, since they have been "resolved." I think you would still have to come up with a 717 payrate, and make sure that is inline with your own expectations. It can't be half the rate of the 737, since the 717 is about the same size as a 735. When all that is settled, then you go off to the arbitrators and they will handle the SLI. Each side presents it's case, and they decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
PapaWoody said:
Incorrect. Although the pay and benefit issues will be "settled" (as PCL said, they're pretty much "settled" now), they will play a part in the SLI, contrary to what you and all the AT guys want to think. Please refer to your arbitrated award where it reads "Appropriate to consider..." the approx. 9.5% gains (contrary to your 30% previous assertions, btw) realized by the NW pilots. Also, please refer to the "recent precedent" that is the Chq/SA arbitrated award. The totality of this situation will be considered and the decision will be rendered based upon that, and I doubt if they will consult you, GL. They probably won't consult me, either, but I'll keep my phone on just in case. ;)

Fraternally,
PapaWoody
Click to expand...

Recent precedent? You mean in 2005? That is recent? Since then there were two larger mergers that actually have relevence compared to that case. (size wise) CHQ and Shuttle America were in the same holding company too. AT/SWA , AWA/USA, DL/NWA all were seperate companies. Come on, you know that!

And, it doesn't really matter if there is a 9.5% pay raise or 30% pay raise between your two companies. What if an ATL hub generates 50% of your next years net profit? GK said that hub COULD BE the largest at a combined SWA. Just that statement should be used by AT pilots at the arbitration. It's about what each group brings to the table, and you SWA guys DON'T THINK AT BRINGS ENOUGH. Well, that's wrong. BTW, your famous culture is on the line here.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
SWA/FO said:
Republic/f9 will set a precedent that the tranny dudes might not like...

General, you sure have a huge interest in our SLI. You only know about your SLI, you bring nothing to this conversation. Go on one of your great trips and leave the CPU at home!!!
Click to expand...

They are in the same holding company---Republic/F9. F9 was BK. Republic also owns Midwest assets, and AT is killing them in MKE as we speak. Don't think that precedent will be the one used. SWA and AT are profitable companies. (sounds like comparable companies, like DL and NWA) Delta brought certian things to the table (Europe routes, East Coast hubs, South America stuff), and NWA brought stuff to the table (Asia routes, Midwest hubs, ANC cargo base). The arbitrators looked at all of that and the size of the operations and came to a conclusion. The same will happen with you. AT has a huge AT hub, slots at LGA/DCA, and INTL experience. Also, they are profitable. Guess what? You won't even get close to a staple with that amount of stuff on the table. Don't fight it. Some of you SWA guys will be at the bottom of the combined list.

And, why do I like this topic? This industry interests me, and I want to see how this merger turns out---like USAir or DL. You pick.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
Well, voyeurism is drawing me back in...

FOR ALL AIRTRAN pilots and SWA pilots, we will all be working together someday...don't assume u can hide behind the avatars and nicknames...no sense in stirring the pot between future coworkers (there will be plenty of time after the merger/acquisition for that nonsense).

GARY KELLY is a smart guy, he knows that AAI/SWA has the potential to be a great company IF HE CAN MAINTAIN the positive CULTURE that has made SWA and AAI successful...this SLI can destroy all of the culture that has taken years to build...

SOooooo, GK expects that the synergies of the combined company will result in $400,000,000 in YEAR ONE!!!

He wants to grow the combined company!! GOOD NEWS FOR ALL...

So let's say we don't fence the 717 and spread them around the SWA system (think TX, CA) to serve small markets there....and let's say a junior AAI CP is downgraded to a SWA FO, or let's say a senior SWA FO is put behind more junior 717 CP (in terms of DOH/blend for example) to save training costs....well guess what, Mr GK could PAY PROTECT these individuals at SWA CP rates....could be chump change for him and it would go a long way to keeping the LUV going...just a thought...
 
madjack said:
Well, voyeurism is drawing me back in...

FOR ALL AIRTRAN pilots and SWA pilots, we will all be working together someday...don't assume u can hide behind the avatars and nicknames...no sense in stirring the pot between future coworkers (there will be plenty of time after the merger/acquisition for that nonsense).

GARY KELLY is a smart guy, he knows that AAI/SWA has the potential to be a great company IF HE CAN MAINTAIN the positive CULTURE that has made SWA and AAI successful...this SLI can destroy all of the culture that has taken years to build...

SOooooo, GK expects that the synergies of the combined company will result in $400,000,000 in YEAR ONE!!!

He wants to grow the combined company!! GOOD NEWS FOR ALL...

So let's say we don't fence the 717 and spread them around the SWA system (think TX, CA) to serve small markets there....and let's say a junior AAI CP is downgraded to a SWA FO, or let's say a senior SWA FO is put behind more junior 717 CP (in terms of DOH/blend for example) to save training costs....well guess what, Mr GK could PAY PROTECT these individuals at SWA CP rates....could be chump change for him and it would go a long way to keeping the LUV going...just a thought...
Click to expand...

You stated "culture that has made AT successful" I don't think you really know SWA culture and how it has made SWA successful. GK will take care of it's own first right along with SWAPA. See what people need to see is the biz stand point. AT shareholders know they in the long run could not compete with SWA. So they said how about we sell to SWA and invest in the new combined company. SWA would have done just fine without AT. It's all about the shareholders and not the pilots. I will agree the synergies will make SWA a lot of money. I promise the outcome will be fair for both pilot groups (fence or no fence). The transaction with SWAPA and company is almost complete. Standby to see how this will go down initially for all the current SWA brother and sisters. Then we will know how the next five years will go for the whole.
 
Madjack,

The comment of pay protection for JR AAI capts if down graded to SWA FO. If that would be the case even GK knows that you would still get a pay raise at SR FO SWA wages. So pay protection at current Capt SWA rates would cost him to much money.
 
General Lee said:
Well, there you go. IF that is true, then the arbitrators won't even have to look at the pay issues, since they have been "resolved." I think you would still have to come up with a 717 payrate, and make sure that is inline with your own expectations. It can't be half the rate of the 737, since the 717 is about the same size as a 735. When all that is settled, then you go off to the arbitrators and they will handle the SLI. Each side presents it's case, and they decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee
Click to expand...

You have got to be kidding me General Lee. This is the worst logic I have seen WRT an SLI. First of all, we will not negotiate to have AAI pilots at our pay rate until they are SWAPA members. That won't happen until the SLI is complete. Second, the logic is absurd. Just because after the SLI AAI pilots get our contract does not mean we are all equal WRT pay and work rules for SLI purposes. If that were true there would never be a need to arbitrate, ever. B/M would have just stated that relative seniority is the required method for an SLI. It did not because pay and career expectations are factors to be considered by an arbitrator(s).

I noticed you never responded to my post regarding wide body pay and why that would matter in an SLI. I didn't think you would. Career expectation is not a "seat" or "aircraft type" it is pay, pure and simple. Everyone knows this, despite arguments to the contrary.

In spite of all that General Lee, I think you are fantastic too.
 
General Lee said:
They are in the same holding company---Republic/F9. F9 was BK. Republic also owns Midwest assets, and AT is killing them in MKE as we speak. Don't think that precedent will be the one used. SWA and AT are profitable companies. (sounds like comparable companies, like DL and NWA) Delta brought certian things to the table (Europe routes, East Coast hubs, South America stuff), and NWA brought stuff to the table (Asia routes, Midwest hubs, ANC cargo base). The arbitrators looked at all of that and the size of the operations and came to a conclusion. The same will happen with you. AT has a huge AT hub, slots at LGA/DCA, and INTL experience. Also, they are profitable. Guess what? You won't even get close to a staple with that amount of stuff on the table. Don't fight it. Some of you SWA guys will be at the bottom of the combined list.

And, why do I like this topic? This industry interests me, and I want to see how this merger turns out---like USAir or DL. You pick.



Bye Bye--General Lee
Click to expand...

OK GL so you want to consider what each company brings to the table. Sounds good. As much as ATL is a shining star of all things in the airline world, it is only one city. Frankly, a city with a mega carrier to compete with to boot.

When talking about what each carrier brings to the table I noticed you skipped the part about debt, profits, aircraft numbers, cities served, and market cap. This is not a merger, it is an acquisition. This acquisition is made possible because SWA makes a LOT of money. This is not DL/NW. Not even close.

I still think you are fantastic General Lee.
 
Ty, This is repeated just for you. Because you seem to be naive of your situation.


What is just plane disappointing is the ungrateful appearance that most AT pilots have on this board. The SWA pilots before you worked very, very hard to get we are today. The largest reason for SWA's success is on the backs of its employees. Our productivity is second to none in the industry. And that productivity is the hard work we have done both on the line, and off.

No matter where seniority may end up, most all the AT pilots are thrilled about this acquisition. And most all the SWA pilots are not. That should tell you the entire story. SWA is acquiring AT for no more than 300 million out of the bank account. That is a fact. The value of this transaction is not what most of the AT pilots on this board are trying to sell the SWA pilots. If it cost SWA 1.4 bil out of the bank account, SWA would have not purchased AT's assets. It is not worth nearly that much.

So any AT pilot trying to push ANYTHING in the neighborhood of relative seniority as fair is going to rub every, and I mean EVERY SWA pilot raw. You guys are potentially walking into a very lucrative SWA job that we earned with SWA. We all put in our dues before we got hired by our respective airlines. But from our perspective, and I feel comfortable speaking for SWA pilots as a whole, we earned the position with SWA. And we don't look at it that way with the AT pilots. No matter what you think or feel, this will not change our minds. It is what it is.

So, any AT pilot who tries to justify their seniority on this board, or any other, is just pissing off the SWA pilots. Wherever the seniority falls, and this is far from a done deal, it will not be because of the opinions on this board. But the opinions on this board are all over the pilot ranks at SWA and there is not ONE pilot I have spoke to that isn't pissed off at those opinions. Even if it is just a few pilots speaking, it is the only voice being heard. And that is not good for the pilots of AT.

If I were you, I would keep my opinions to myself. You are coming to work for us, and not the other way around.

Peace out.
 
Naive, huh?

Well, I guess we'll know soon enough which one of us is, won't we?
 
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I learned to fly in New Zealand......I win !!
 
Would all of you talk to each other like that, if you were sitting in front of one another? (and please don't answer that with "yes",otherwise please sign your name to your post...your real name")
All you do is provide entertainment for the rest of us. Why not let your Merger Committee know how you think the list should look like. They may actually integrate some of your thoughts into their proposals. ( and by the way, if you are too embarrassed to let the MC know, you should be too embarrassed to post it here)

What you do on here only makes you look small and pity. Especially when you think about what it is, you are actually accomplishing.
 
CaptAntoineMack said:
Ty, This is repeated just for you. Because you seem to be naive of your situation.


What is just plane disappointing is the ungrateful appearance that most AT pilots have on this board.

If I were you, I would keep my opinions to myself. You are coming to work for us, and not the other way around.

Peace out.
Click to expand...

I just laughed out loud.

Capt Antoine: Thank you! Our savior! The "ungrateful" AirTran pilots praise thee. Oh mighty saviors, Lord Southwest and Holy Antoine- "The Rescuer". We would NEVER have made it in this life without you. I eagerly await the day I can grovel at your feet in the Potbelly line at MDW.

(sarcasm off)

Get over yourselves...all of you.
 
General Lee said:
I think you would still have to come up with a 717 payrate
Click to expand...

That's true. The SWA contract says that negotiations have to take place for the 717 pay rates and international operations. Besides those kinds of items that are unique to the new part of the operation, the SWA contract is the one that will continue.
 
PCL_128 said:
That's true. The SWA contract says that negotiations have to take place for the 717 pay rates and international operations. Besides those kinds of items that are unique to the new part of the operation, the SWA contract is the one that will continue.
Click to expand...


Good. The SWA contract is currently the best one out there, so hopefully you will be a part of it. Watch out for the 717 rates, though. That plane is the same size and does similar missions as the 735, and if that plane pays the same as the 737-700, then the 717 should too. (or darn close) Good luck to you.


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
PCL_128 said:
That's true. The SWA contract says that negotiations have to take place for the 717 pay rates and international operations. Besides those kinds of items that are unique to the new part of the operation, the SWA contract is the one that will continue.
Click to expand...

I will say that 99.9% of us at SWA want same pay on the 717 as the 737. Not one person that I have talked to, say any different. So hopefully that helps to ease fears.
 
OK3 said:
You have got to be kidding me General Lee. This is the worst logic I have seen WRT an SLI. First of all, we will not negotiate to have AAI pilots at our pay rate until they are SWAPA members. That won't happen until the SLI is complete. Second, the logic is absurd. Just because after the SLI AAI pilots get our contract does not mean we are all equal WRT pay and work rules for SLI purposes. If that were true there would never be a need to arbitrate, ever. B/M would have just stated that relative seniority is the required method for an SLI. It did not because pay and career expectations are factors to be considered by an arbitrator(s).

I noticed you never responded to my post regarding wide body pay and why that would matter in an SLI. I didn't think you would. Career expectation is not a "seat" or "aircraft type" it is pay, pure and simple. Everyone knows this, despite arguments to the contrary.

In spite of all that General Lee, I think you are fantastic too.
Click to expand...

Ummm, what? The reason to arbitrate is SENIORITY. That is the purpose of a (wait for it) S, L, I. You know what those mean, right? Seniority allows you to bid for trips, upgrade, vacation. It is important, and that is best left to a neutral (arbitrator for you Texas guys). A joint contract is necessary FIRST because it can take away some of the STING of the SLI. If everyone gets a payraise, maybe you won't be too mad at seeing the AT 717 FO getting one spot in front of you on the list......

It happened at DL/NWA, but did not happen that way at USAir. Which do you want? GK WILL NOT GET THE SYNERGY PROFITS if one side is mad. Nope. Why should the mad side do anything extra? They are MAD. Look at USAIR. Not sound logic, eh? You need to wake up and look at reality. A joint contract FIRST takes away some of the STING you will get. Too bad the SWA guys won't be getting large raises (just like the DL guys), but a stronger company is always a plus! You can't argue with that logic, now can you? Nope.

As far as widebody pay at the DL/NWA merger is concerned, it was not an issue. There were newhires at DL on the 767 in NYC that were paired up next to DC9 FOs at NWA. It was all based on RELATIVE seniority, and some of those DC9 FOs at NWA promptly bid NYC 767ER FO and got a HUGE RAISE after the merger was complete. The 767 ER FO seat was junior because of INTL reserve rules, but it paid a lot better than any narrowbody at DL. Still, there were NWA guys that lived near NYC that bid it and are happy. The SLI was NOT based off of pay, but rather seat position and relative seniority at the time of the merger. DL had more 757/767 Capt/FOs than NWA, and that figured in to some of it too. The 744 and 777 Capt positions were treated the same, too---equally. Any more questions?


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
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I suppose its possible, depends on how long he's been at AirTran. If he has 15 years i'd say he might have a shot. Like you said, "not a staple, not relative... something in between"
 
OK3 said:
OK GL so you want to consider what each company brings to the table. Sounds good. As much as ATL is a shining star of all things in the airline world, it is only one city. Frankly, a city with a mega carrier to compete with to boot.

When talking about what each carrier brings to the table I noticed you skipped the part about debt, profits, aircraft numbers, cities served, and market cap. This is not a merger, it is an acquisition. This acquisition is made possible because SWA makes a LOT of money. This is not DL/NW. Not even close.

I still think you are fantastic General Lee.
Click to expand...

Thanks for being a part of my fan club. You can be VP, right behind President Ty.

I think you are still in the F9 (Frontier) mindset. F9 was BK, and only brought you more flights out of DEN, a place you were already growing. AT is totally different. AT brings a few things that SWA just can't have on it's own. ATL is the first. There aren't enough gates available, and nobody was giving any up. It is the busiest city in the South, and a mostly fair weather hub (except some snow this Winter), and the facilities are great. You can make a lot of money here if you know what you are doing. But, 25 min turns will be interesting to watch. And, if you pay AT people B-scale wages, you won't get 55 min turns. That is what you have to watch out for.

Next are the DCA slots, and additional LGA slots. You didn't have any lucrative DCA slots on your horizon (unless you gave more pizza parties to lawmakers....), and LGA slots are hard to come by. So, both of those things are a huge plus. You also get some INTL experience (remember your management still doesn't trust you to fly to Mexico, and they would rather Volaris do it), and you get access to many smaller communities that you may never hit because of lack of planes.


So, remember, this aint F9. AT is bringing things to the table, and that will be known by any arbitrator(s), and they will factor that in. That probably means SWA pilots at the top, and then a mixture from there, meaning SWA and AT pilots will be at the bottom of your list. It aint rocket science.

Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Hose A. Jiminez said:
I suppose its possible, depends on how long he's been at AirTran. If he has 15 years i'd say he might have a shot. Like you said, "not a staple, not relative... something in between"
Click to expand...

There you go. Finally. Sure, it is a possibility, and you don't know how the arbitrators will rule. I will tell you one thing though, cockiness from any side never helped. It often lead to very hard feelings after the shock wore off, after seeing the list.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 

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