Airtran Pilots

[S3sundowner]

GK will not see his pilots shafted in this deal. The trannies play ball or will see long fences around the 717 with current rates. Enjoy.

 

[johnsonrod]

HAH!
I flew my c-172 from Fort Lauderdale to Freeport before Airtran existed... So, I can argue I should be on top of the list...

What a weak arguement... Try again...

So, you are saying the Nicalau award is wrong? I will tell you what it is though: precedent. And recent precedent at that. Does that mean since Airtran pilots flew international routes they should go to the top of the list? Heck no. But it sure does mean they bring something Southwest does NOT to the merger table. And THAT worries you, obviously.

 

[johnsonrod]

GK will not see his pilots shafted in this deal. The trannies play ball or will see long fences around the 717 with current rates. Enjoy.

Investment bankers in NYC just don't care. They are running the show now. They care about their M&A fees. And wouldn't that crack your special "culture?". If you did that your planned hub in ATL would turn into a huge fiasco that would cost you even more money to fix. Delta would LUV that. Enjoy.

 

[General Lee]

ahh nice try: snapshot 9/27/10.

Average raise for Tranny dude is $6000 a month, by joining our CBA. Nice chunk of change, Welcome to Southwest Airlines.

Incorrect. See, you are showing everyone you do not know how this works. If you and your management want a successful merger (a la not like USAir), then you will have a joint contract first (like DL/NWA), and all the pay issues will be settled. That means SETTLED prior to the arbitrators. It won't matter what someone made way back when. They only issue about a "snap shot" will be when someone was hired after the announcement. At DL there were a few hundred pilots hired after the merger was announced, and they were promptly put at the bottom of the list by the arbitrators. The same will happen to any SWA or AT poolie. They are not in school yet, and the merger was announced.

So, again, any pay issues will be solved prior to the SLI arbitration. Unless, you want a USAir style merger.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[johnsonrod]

Incorrect. See, you are showing everyone you do not know how this works. If you and your management want a successful merger (a la not like USAir), then you will have a joint contract first (like DL/NWA), and all the pay issues will be settled. That means SETTLED prior to the arbitrators. It won't matter what someone made way back when. They only issue about a "snap shot" will be when someone was hired after the announcement. At DL there were a few hundred pilots hired after the merger was announced, and they were promptly put at the bottom of the list by the arbitrators. The same will happen to any SWA or AT poolie. They are not in school yet, and the merger was announced.

So, again, any pay issues will be solved prior to the SLI arbitration. Unless, you want a USAir style merger....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Good point! I guess they want that culture to melt away. Get the pay issue out of the way first, and then do the SLI. It's their(Swapa's) choice.

 

[PCL_128]

The pay issue is already out of the way. Because the ATN pilot group is less than 35% of the combined group, the SWAPA contract is automatically the surviving contract when the pilot groups are merged, and SWAPA is the surviving union. There doesn't have to be a JCBA negotiation. So, in effect, we already have a JCBA. It's just the current SWA contract.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I flew a T-28 in Texas in 1980. I win.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

An accelerated upgrade for SWA pilots is a windfall too.

 

[PapaWoody]

Incorrect. See, you are showing everyone you do not know how this works. If you and your management want a successful merger (a la not like USAir), then you will have a joint contract first (like DL/NWA), and all the pay issues will be settled. That means SETTLED prior to the arbitrators. It won't matter what someone made way back when. They only issue about a "snap shot" will be when someone was hired after the announcement. At DL there were a few hundred pilots hired after the merger was announced, and they were promptly put at the bottom of the list by the arbitrators. The same will happen to any SWA or AT poolie. They are not in school yet, and the merger was announced.

So, again, any pay issues will be solved prior to the SLI arbitration. Unless, you want a USAir style merger.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Incorrect. Although the pay and benefit issues will be "settled" (as PCL said, they're pretty much "settled" now), they will play a part in the SLI, contrary to what you and all the AT guys want to think. Please refer to your arbitrated award where it reads "Appropriate to consider..." the approx. 9.5% gains (contrary to your 30% previous assertions, btw) realized by the NW pilots. Also, please refer to the "recent precedent" that is the Chq/SA arbitrated award. The totality of this situation will be considered and the decision will be rendered based upon that, and I doubt if they will consult you, GL. They probably won't consult me, either, but I'll keep my phone on just in case.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[SWA/FO]

Republic/f9 will set a precedent that the tranny dudes might not like...

General, you sure have a huge interest in our SLI. You only know about your SLI, you bring nothing to this conversation. Go on one of your great trips and leave the CPU at home!!!

 

[General Lee]

The pay issue is already out of the way. Because the ATN pilot group is less than 35% of the combined group, the SWAPA contract is automatically the surviving contract when the pilot groups are merged, and SWAPA is the surviving union. There doesn't have to be a JCBA negotiation. So, in effect, we already have a JCBA. It's just the current SWA contract.

Well, there you go. IF that is true, then the arbitrators won't even have to look at the pay issues, since they have been "resolved." I think you would still have to come up with a 717 payrate, and make sure that is inline with your own expectations. It can't be half the rate of the 737, since the 717 is about the same size as a 735. When all that is settled, then you go off to the arbitrators and they will handle the SLI. Each side presents it's case, and they decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Incorrect. Although the pay and benefit issues will be "settled" (as PCL said, they're pretty much "settled" now), they will play a part in the SLI, contrary to what you and all the AT guys want to think. Please refer to your arbitrated award where it reads "Appropriate to consider..." the approx. 9.5% gains (contrary to your 30% previous assertions, btw) realized by the NW pilots. Also, please refer to the "recent precedent" that is the Chq/SA arbitrated award. The totality of this situation will be considered and the decision will be rendered based upon that, and I doubt if they will consult you, GL. They probably won't consult me, either, but I'll keep my phone on just in case.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Recent precedent? You mean in 2005? That is recent? Since then there were two larger mergers that actually have relevence compared to that case. (size wise) CHQ and Shuttle America were in the same holding company too. AT/SWA , AWA/USA, DL/NWA all were seperate companies. Come on, you know that!

And, it doesn't really matter if there is a 9.5% pay raise or 30% pay raise between your two companies. What if an ATL hub generates 50% of your next years net profit? GK said that hub COULD BE the largest at a combined SWA. Just that statement should be used by AT pilots at the arbitration. It's about what each group brings to the table, and you SWA guys DON'T THINK AT BRINGS ENOUGH. Well, that's wrong. BTW, your famous culture is on the line here.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Republic/f9 will set a precedent that the tranny dudes might not like...

General, you sure have a huge interest in our SLI. You only know about your SLI, you bring nothing to this conversation. Go on one of your great trips and leave the CPU at home!!!

They are in the same holding company---Republic/F9. F9 was BK. Republic also owns Midwest assets, and AT is killing them in MKE as we speak. Don't think that precedent will be the one used. SWA and AT are profitable companies. (sounds like comparable companies, like DL and NWA) Delta brought certian things to the table (Europe routes, East Coast hubs, South America stuff), and NWA brought stuff to the table (Asia routes, Midwest hubs, ANC cargo base). The arbitrators looked at all of that and the size of the operations and came to a conclusion. The same will happen with you. AT has a huge AT hub, slots at LGA/DCA, and INTL experience. Also, they are profitable. Guess what? You won't even get close to a staple with that amount of stuff on the table. Don't fight it. Some of you SWA guys will be at the bottom of the combined list.

And, why do I like this topic? This industry interests me, and I want to see how this merger turns out---like USAir or DL. You pick.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[madjack]

Well, voyeurism is drawing me back in...

FOR ALL AIRTRAN pilots and SWA pilots, we will all be working together someday...don't assume u can hide behind the avatars and nicknames...no sense in stirring the pot between future coworkers (there will be plenty of time after the merger/acquisition for that nonsense).

GARY KELLY is a smart guy, he knows that AAI/SWA has the potential to be a great company IF HE CAN MAINTAIN the positive CULTURE that has made SWA and AAI successful...this SLI can destroy all of the culture that has taken years to build...

SOooooo, GK expects that the synergies of the combined company will result in $400,000,000 in YEAR ONE!!!

He wants to grow the combined company!! GOOD NEWS FOR ALL...

So let's say we don't fence the 717 and spread them around the SWA system (think TX, CA) to serve small markets there....and let's say a junior AAI CP is downgraded to a SWA FO, or let's say a senior SWA FO is put behind more junior 717 CP (in terms of DOH/blend for example) to save training costs....well guess what, Mr GK could PAY PROTECT these individuals at SWA CP rates....could be chump change for him and it would go a long way to keeping the LUV going...just a thought...

 

[S3sundowner]

General, what is to stop swa from fencing the 717 operation for a very long time and keeping the "snapshot" pay rates?

 

[texman]

Well, voyeurism is drawing me back in...

FOR ALL AIRTRAN pilots and SWA pilots, we will all be working together someday...don't assume u can hide behind the avatars and nicknames...no sense in stirring the pot between future coworkers (there will be plenty of time after the merger/acquisition for that nonsense).

GARY KELLY is a smart guy, he knows that AAI/SWA has the potential to be a great company IF HE CAN MAINTAIN the positive CULTURE that has made SWA and AAI successful...this SLI can destroy all of the culture that has taken years to build...

SOooooo, GK expects that the synergies of the combined company will result in $400,000,000 in YEAR ONE!!!

He wants to grow the combined company!! GOOD NEWS FOR ALL...

So let's say we don't fence the 717 and spread them around the SWA system (think TX, CA) to serve small markets there....and let's say a junior AAI CP is downgraded to a SWA FO, or let's say a senior SWA FO is put behind more junior 717 CP (in terms of DOH/blend for example) to save training costs....well guess what, Mr GK could PAY PROTECT these individuals at SWA CP rates....could be chump change for him and it would go a long way to keeping the LUV going...just a thought...

You stated "culture that has made AT successful" I don't think you really know SWA culture and how it has made SWA successful. GK will take care of it's own first right along with SWAPA. See what people need to see is the biz stand point. AT shareholders know they in the long run could not compete with SWA. So they said how about we sell to SWA and invest in the new combined company. SWA would have done just fine without AT. It's all about the shareholders and not the pilots. I will agree the synergies will make SWA a lot of money. I promise the outcome will be fair for both pilot groups (fence or no fence). The transaction with SWAPA and company is almost complete. Standby to see how this will go down initially for all the current SWA brother and sisters. Then we will know how the next five years will go for the whole.

 

[texman]

Madjack,

The comment of pay protection for JR AAI capts if down graded to SWA FO. If that would be the case even GK knows that you would still get a pay raise at SR FO SWA wages. So pay protection at current Capt SWA rates would cost him to much money.

 

[OK3]

Well, there you go. IF that is true, then the arbitrators won't even have to look at the pay issues, since they have been "resolved." I think you would still have to come up with a 717 payrate, and make sure that is inline with your own expectations. It can't be half the rate of the 737, since the 717 is about the same size as a 735. When all that is settled, then you go off to the arbitrators and they will handle the SLI. Each side presents it's case, and they decide.


Bye Bye--General Lee

You have got to be kidding me General Lee. This is the worst logic I have seen WRT an SLI. First of all, we will not negotiate to have AAI pilots at our pay rate until they are SWAPA members. That won't happen until the SLI is complete. Second, the logic is absurd. Just because after the SLI AAI pilots get our contract does not mean we are all equal WRT pay and work rules for SLI purposes. If that were true there would never be a need to arbitrate, ever. B/M would have just stated that relative seniority is the required method for an SLI. It did not because pay and career expectations are factors to be considered by an arbitrator(s).

I noticed you never responded to my post regarding wide body pay and why that would matter in an SLI. I didn't think you would. Career expectation is not a "seat" or "aircraft type" it is pay, pure and simple. Everyone knows this, despite arguments to the contrary.

In spite of all that General Lee, I think you are fantastic too.

 

[OK3]

They are in the same holding company---Republic/F9. F9 was BK. Republic also owns Midwest assets, and AT is killing them in MKE as we speak. Don't think that precedent will be the one used. SWA and AT are profitable companies. (sounds like comparable companies, like DL and NWA) Delta brought certian things to the table (Europe routes, East Coast hubs, South America stuff), and NWA brought stuff to the table (Asia routes, Midwest hubs, ANC cargo base). The arbitrators looked at all of that and the size of the operations and came to a conclusion. The same will happen with you. AT has a huge AT hub, slots at LGA/DCA, and INTL experience. Also, they are profitable. Guess what? You won't even get close to a staple with that amount of stuff on the table. Don't fight it. Some of you SWA guys will be at the bottom of the combined list.

And, why do I like this topic? This industry interests me, and I want to see how this merger turns out---like USAir or DL. You pick.



Bye Bye--General Lee

OK GL so you want to consider what each company brings to the table. Sounds good. As much as ATL is a shining star of all things in the airline world, it is only one city. Frankly, a city with a mega carrier to compete with to boot.

When talking about what each carrier brings to the table I noticed you skipped the part about debt, profits, aircraft numbers, cities served, and market cap. This is not a merger, it is an acquisition. This acquisition is made possible because SWA makes a LOT of money. This is not DL/NW. Not even close.

I still think you are fantastic General Lee.

 

[Ty Webb]

This is not a merger, it is an acquisition. This acquisition is made possible because SWA makes a LOT of money. This is not DL/NW. Not even close.
.

Another member of the "Flat Earth Society".