Airtran-Midwest getting closer to a deal?

[Remington]

I imagine that the age 65rule getting passed would make all this worse?

 

[Lear70]

I imagine that the age 65rule getting passed would make all this worse?

Not by much.

You're talking a difference of probably 10-20 guys a year (combined list) for the next 5 years, 10-15% or about 2-4 months extra to upgrade.

Crashpad, I don't think the Midwest guys will do quite as well as you think. If they had THAT kind of clout they'd get Date Of Hire, but I don't think that's going to happen.

The CA's here have excellent representation. Everything at this airline is about the CA, one of the few holdout airlines with that mentality. Understandably so, even in recent times, when the F/O's have been willing to shut up and hunker down until upgrade since upgrade has been so relatively quick the last 5 years.

How will that change if it suddenly looks like you won't upgrade for an additional 3, 5, or 7 years? Will the F/O's suddenly develop a more serious voice? Only time will tell.

What needs to happen:

At the VERY first indication that the shareholders are going to accept this purchase, EVERY single F/O needs to email / call their representatives AND the senior management here about fences, career expectations, and the cost to the company if suddenly 500-750 F/O's find themselves facing several more years to upgrade and decide to leave (not to mention the next hiring boom already starting amongst other majors with MUCH better long-term F/O pay scales).

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, and will help mitigate whatever damage a well-organized and unified pilot group (Midwest) would accomplish during seniority integration talks / arbitration. Even mitigated however, it still has the potential for serious damage.

A 3-year fence wouldn't do the trick for all the F/O's currently on property, it would need to be upwards of 4-5.

As far as being beneficial for ALL 10 years down the road? Maybe it will START being beneficial by then for the junior guys...

 

[Ty Webb]

Yeah, it $ucks. At least if you had some kind of representation, you could put up a brave fight. .

We do have representation, and a pretty sizable M/A contingency fund. If our goal was to wrest something out of it that was more than we should receive (ie, a staple) we have the horsepower to do it . . . . . but is it the right thing to do?

I don't think so. There is a precedent, from the Valujet/AirTran merger, which followed the Allegheny/Mohawk precedent. It will likely be relative seniority, with fences.

I don't think it will be as doom/gloom as Lear70, but I sure understand his frustration. I think the upgrades will come to much of a halt for a one year period while the MD80 guys get transitioned, but we will probably grow at a rate after that that would be greater then previous, and there will be more airplanes ordered, rest assured.

When I hired on in 2001, I was told to be ready to upgrade in a year. There were upgrades during that time of 11 months, in some cases (on the DC9). Then, they made the decision to do away with the DC9, and the 717 deliveries, instead of being growth, became replacement deliveries. The upgrades pretty much stopped as the transition training went on. Some DC9 Captains didn't have the seniority to hold 717 CA and were downgraded to FO. Everyone else pretty much stayed where they were for about 18 months or so . . It sucked for everyone, except the guys at the top. My one year upgrade became three.

Then, the music started again, and the growth/movement continued. . . . and I imagine this will be pretty much the same- at least in that regard.

 

[Remington]

Or, SWA buys Airtran, keeps the -700s, and sells the 717s to MEH?

 

[400ADude]

Or, SWA buys Airtran, keeps the -700s, and sells the 717s to MEH?

Not unlikely. What is Airtran worth? 500-750 million. At least the Airtran guys would get preferential interviews..............at Midwest!:laugh:

 

[Lear70]

I don't think it will be as doom/gloom as Lear70, but I sure understand his frustration. I think the upgrades will come to much of a halt for a one year period while the MD80 guys get transitioned, but we will probably grow at a rate after that that would be greater then previous, and there will be more airplanes ordered, rest assured.

(HeeHaw music) "DOOOOMMM, DesPAAAAIRRR, and agony on me. DEEP DARK DEPREESSION, excessive misery..." LOL

That's one possibility that could change the balance at least somewhat: an accelerated delivery schedule.

Question is, would the airline try to slow down some and get a handle on things for a year or two following the acquisition and MD80 replacements or just blast ahead and accelerate the deliveries for a Mid-west / West Coast expansion (excuse the pun, unintended).

Again, only time will tell. But would you take that chance? If you were a 1st or 2nd year F/O and got the call from SWA or CAL, would you stay or would you go where you KNOW the F/O pay scale for 5-7 years would beat AirTran by more than $100,000 over that period? That's a lot of money to give up for an uncertain gamble of accelerated growth here.

A lot of guys, including myself, were planning on making AirTran a career, but can we afford not only to never make as much as our peer groups (union DVD presentation) but ALSO getting dinged on F/O pay for 20% of our remaining careers (assuming average age in the mid-30's with 25 years or so left until Age 60)?

Hard questions. You'd be a fool not to ask them. The only choices are to hedge your bets NOW, make sure our voice and concerns are heard by Management and the NPA, then make a decision for ourselves and our family when the outcome is decided.

 

[BR715]

Let's just worry about it after if happens. In my opinion Midwest does not want it so it will not happen. Enjoy your holiday's and try not to worry so much!

 

[Phaedrus]

Lear: I'm by no means advocating you bail on AirTran, but you're concerns were exactly mine when I left there over the summer. Too much instability and too many unknowns for my personal taste. That was before the Midwest announcement. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do.

 

[jobear]

The way AirTran has been shopping for a new partner does seem to me to be a bit weird. Or is it the grow or die mentaily? Not looking to flame anyone just askin'.

Jobear

 

[Lear70]

Thanks, Phaedrus.

I really, really like it here (pay and the Midwest issues aside). I've flown with only 2 guys I wouldn't care to fly with again out of several dozen, the schedules have been good (even on reserve I drop down to 14-15 days off and credit 80-85 hours), and I like that they mostly leave us alone to come fly our trips and go home. It's such a far cry from what I came from that I have a hard time even contemplating going through the angst of another interview, training cycle, etc, but...

I just can't afford to sit 5-7 years as an F/O. If I'm going to do that, I might as well go to CAL or SWA where the F/O pay is good after 1st year or, God willing, Purple or Brown (not that I want to do 6-8 day stints in foreign countries, but I miss cargo). Not that I have all those options, but I have friends at almost every carrier and would hope that I could get at least an interview at one of them...

For me it HAS to be about the money at this point in my career. I've had my fun flying Lears and such and now that I have a family, I have to make enough money to re-start my retirement savings that's been ransacked now after 9/11 and again after taking a $35,000 pay cut to come here.

I can't do that on $40k, $50k, or even $60k a year with a wife, two kids (possibly soon to be 3 and if that happens, someone's tubes are getting tied), and a mortgage unless we live like paupers and you HAVE to have at least SOME life, who knows if you're going to get hit by a truck at 40...?

Don't want to obsess over it, but like I said, you'd be crazy not to take all of this into account.

 

[Phaedrus]

Sounds like a mirror image of my thinking. It was a tough decision but one I look back on and am glad I made the one I did. Being away from the family is the toughest part about this job v. AirTran, but it will get better as I gain some seniority. I just wasn't ready to invest what little time I have in a company, that in my opinion, has little vision all the while wondering if I was going to have to start all over a few years from now. Granted, there is no guarantee with any company in this business, but stability was my number one nugget on the AAI v. FX scale. Pay ain't bad either...

 

[SkiFishFly]

Or, SWA buys Airtran, keeps the -700s, and sells the 717s to MEH?

Airtran buys MEH. SWA buys AirTran and then sells off the 717 operation as a seperate airline.
Will SWA keep us 737 drivers as part of this deal?

 

[Lear70]

I'm sure they would... if it happened that way.

SWA has bought several small airlines and integrated the crews of the airlines they purchased.

The notable exception is the ATA deal, and they didn't actually buy the airline, just the gates and slots, so they obviously didn't feel obligated to the pilots.

Don't think this will happen this way anytime soon though... we have too many 717's to be interesting unless they could split the fleet like that profitably and I doubt JL or BF think a fleet of 717's alone is a good thing. The 737 is lowering CASM dramatically, it's a great airframe for what we do.

 

[Remington]

Rumor has it that SWA NEEDS 737-700s. How far will they go to get these airframes? Buy up deferred AirTran planes or buy the entire airline? I am sure nobody in the airline purchase committee intends to call and ask my opionion, but since you asked, I think SWA would keep the 737 pilots also.

 

[another cfii]

Hey Rich,

Thanks for all the detailed play-by-play analysis.. From a current linker, hope you're catching up on your number of posts at your message board, cuz we sure miss ya, since now it's so toned down...

Seems to me AAI to buy MEH is a done deal that's just waiting to be signed, especially with MEH getting outside help to "appraise" their values, and big daddy AirTran is willing to cough up more cash if needed, and their markets do really fit well together.

Just trying to see if i should stay put or jump into bed with AirTran...

 

[Lear70]

Hey Rich,

Thanks for all the detailed play-by-play analysis.. From a current linker, hope you're catching up on your number of posts at your message board, cuz we sure miss ya, since now it's so toned down...

Seems to me AAI to buy MEH is a done deal that's just waiting to be signed, especially with MEH getting outside help to "appraise" their values, and big daddy AirTran is willing to cough up more cash if needed, and their markets do really fit well together.

Just trying to see if i should stay put or jump into bed with AirTran...

Hey, my brother, what's up?

Actually, we have 2 message boards, one of which is mainly for training and flight issues that I just lurk on,,, still learning the intricacies of the plane. The other message board, believe it or not, I just applied for access to a couple days ago. It's private and run by one of our pilots and I don't know much about it yet.

Coming to work here? Well, I have to say, this place is a THOUSAND times better than PCL in terms of quality of life. My worst month on reserve was better than just about ANY month as a lineholder at PCL...

Except for pay. I made $72k my last year at PCL. Starting pay here is around $40k. Ouch. Doesn't catch up to PCL CA pay until about year 4 F/O, and will NEVER make up for what I lose those first 3 years until I upgrade to CA (unless I'm an F/O for 12 years - LOL).

I think you're right about it being a done deal, which is why I'm trying to stir the pot a little here and get the senior guys thinking a little bit about seniority integration as it would affect the F/O's here. Shot off an email or 3 to my reps as well, since AP went up to talk to the Midwest MEC this week.

Don't know how much good it will do, but all I can do is try, right?

Go ahead and take the interview, get hired, then make a decision. By the time you do that, we should know a lot more (late Jan / early Feb).

 

[Ty Webb]

I just can't afford to sit 5-7 years as an F/O. If I'm going to do that, I might as well go to CAL or SWA where the F/O pay is good after 1st year or, God willing, Purple or Brown (not that I want to do 6-8 day stints in foreign countries, but I miss cargo).

I have been very happy here at AirTran, but given the developments here in the past 2 years . . . if I were an FO, I would certainly be trying to get on with SWA, CAL, Fedex or UPS . . . . and that was even before the Midex announcement.

Even with only 20 years left, you would:

1) Make over $1 mil more before you retire;

2) Have more days off every month you work, for the rest of your career;

3) Be treated better by management every day of your career;

4) Have more job security

So, what was the question, again . . . I forget.

 

[md83drvr]

If the merger would go through I would guess on some type of ration/relative position. However, ME is not bringing 36 aircraft (25 717, and 11 MD80), they are only bringing 25 717. As others have pointed out Joe and Co have said the MD80's would be replaced with 737's FL has on order. So the 737 captain seats should be FL pilots.

I would say the merged senority list would have to be adjusted to account for only the ME 717 captains.

The number of pilots that ME needs to fly the 717 fleet get merged on a percentage/relative position. The rest get placed behind the last FL pilot on the date of merger.

While not perfect for the ME pilots, they would at least have a greater chance of upgrading in the same time frame as they would have if ME stayed independant. It would also protect the FL pilots and their carrer expectations.

 

[AFcitrus]

I agree,

The only fair way to do an integration would be (for lack of a better term) one of expected career progression. If you are a ME captain expecting to be on reserve the next 3 years - you get integrated such that that time frame remains the same. If you are a ME FO expecting to upgrade five years from now, you are integrated such that you remain an FO for the next five years.

I'm not sure how this would be done but it sounds fair from a logical standpoint. No one could complain and say they got the shaft because they would get exactly what their expectations are now - as would FL pilots. No one would get stapled unless that is what where their expected career integration puts them.

Rest assured in the event this acquisition goes throught, I'll be pushing our representation to do just this. Anything else would be unacceptable!!

Cheers

 

[TWA Dude]

Here's an idea for a fair YX-AAI integration (if it should come to pass):

in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

And if both sides can't agree on the above it goes to binding arbitration.

I don't just like it; I'm living it.